Evolution My ToE

[YoursTrue]

Care to demonstrate the circuclar reasoning, then?


Not a single thing in this post actually addresses what I wrote.

Please demonstrate a means by which two organisms can share a large amount of genetic information without common descent.


There is no circular reasoning unless you can demonstrate it.


This is just a lie. Evolution is more widely accepted now than ever. Your manipualtive misuse and misunderstanding of scientific papers doesn't indicate anything else.

May I ask you a question that hopefully you will and can answer? Please give exact scientific references to common descent, with, yes, proof that one organism evolved from another and there is evidence of common descent. Now when you give the scientific references, please make sure that common folk like me can understand it, otherwise I hope you can explain in your own words what it means to someone as dumb as me. (Thanks.) If not, don't bother. Thanks again.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I'd be surprised if you would be compelled by the truth. So that was not my intention. I simply pointed out you deliberate attempt to mislead from what is the truth.

If someone says, the sky is blue because someone got a brush and gallons and gallons of paint, and painted it, and I wanted to show them otherwise, with reference, I would clip the section that says why the sky is blue, and provide the link.
I don't need to provide anymore information from the page.
The person can read that for themselves.

So your claim that I left out parts deliberately to make it look like the quote supports my point, even though it doesn't, is clearly false, and a deliberate attempt to draw attention away from the truth - namely, that I am only pointing to one of the facts presented in the article... the other facts, being irrelevant to the one I quoted.

It is interesting you should point fingers at others when it is clear that truth is rarely a companion of your posts.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

May I ask you a question that hopefully you will and can answer? Please give exact scientific references to common descent, with, yes, proof

I'm verging on to the point of tearing my hair out.

Science doesn't do "proof", it does "evidence". Please stop asking for "proof" when you should already know by now that this is not something science can produce for a theory.

that one organism evolved from another and there is evidence of common descent.

This is a confusing request for multiple reasons. Firstly, because I've already presented numerous scientific studies on speciation, and secondly because it seems unnecessarily vague.

What kind of thing are you expecting me to present? I've already explained to you the observed instances of evolution, and I've explained to you the evidence of common descent. Common descent isn't something evidenced by just ONE observation, it is a conclusion reached by looking at a wide range of available evidences. Do you want me to just present them again?

 

[Astrophile]

Of course it seems reasonable to realize the other nations thought their god(s) were real. There is a big difference between Yahweh's dealings with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and other lineages. A big difference.

What is the difference, other than that you believe in Yahweh and the Bible rather than in the religions of other nations? What objective criteria could you present to convince an atheist that the stories of Yahweh's dealings with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are any more true than the stories of the Greek gods or the Egyptian gods?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Sometimes there were mentions of other gods than the one who spoke to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The Bible gives references to the gods of the nations. It also mentioned the one "true God." There is only one true God.

I'm not quite sure how that answers my question. I mean, you're just declaring there is only "one true God" and that's the one you worship.

Well, that's what lots of people say.

The point is that many other people throughout history and presently, worship(ed) other gods and they are just as convinced as you are that they are worshiping the "true" one(s).
Everyone thinks they've got it right. But you can't all be right, and you could all be wrong. So, how do we know that any god(s) exist at all? When has anyone ever demonstrated any such thing?

 

[SkepticThinker]

The people eating the loaves and fishes Jesus made for them had the evidence in their hands. The people hugging jesus after He rose from the dead had the Evidence in their hands! People over ages who invited Him in to their hearts and lives had the evidence in their lives. None of this science could detect. The angels talking to people had what they said evidenced by coming true. You seem to think that engaging in history and witness denial, and looking only to what modern science can grab hold of has any reality.

Those are all old stories in old books. They are claims. They are not evidence of spirits anymore than Harry Potter books are evidence of magic. And those stories have nothing to do with spirits. And now you've gone and thrown angels into the mix, as though it's been verified that they exist as well. You just keep piling on the claims while never actually demonstrating anything. Ever.

You said spirits are detectable. Please describe how they are detectable and measurable (because if something is detectable, it will be measurable) in some empirical way. Citing old stories in ancient books about people rising from the dead and other such unverifiable claims is not evidence of anything. It's just more claims. As I have explained to you several times now.

What is your definition of "spirit" by the way, because your examples don't seem relevant to what we are talking about.

God gives it and has done so all through history. Science sees none, and will continue to be left out of the loop by God probably. They are a body of believers in only the flesh, the physical, the temporal. Then they yell about how they are left out.

So what is it then?? This is just another non-answer that tells us absolutely nothing.

Science is the observation and measurement of the world around us. If spirits are interacting with the world around us in any way, then they should be detectable. You said they are detectable, so the question is HOW are they detectable?

Who are "they" and why do you think they are "yell[ing] about being left out?" Who is doing so?

False, you have one for your origin beliefs.

So you're actually going to sit here and say that evidence is not how we know things exist in the first place? You realize that's not rational, right? You must believe in every single thing anybody has ever told you then? That seems like a silly and potentially dangerous way to go through life.

As I've already told you, I don't have "origin beliefs."

Good is not limited to what God deniers decide to include in their little box.

How does this address what I said about rationality?

As I've said countless times before, I will accept things for which there is good evidence. I wouldn't be a "god denier" if anyone had presented me with any good evidence that god(s) exist at all. So far, I have seen no such evidence. I'm also a "unicorn denier" and a "universe-farting pixie" denier, probably much like you are. Though who knows, judging from the way you go about determining what is true or false, you may very well believe in those things if I told you they were real.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Except it's true. And then you have to wonder WHY "birds of a feather flock together." Evolution? Hmm I wonder. All those different types of birds.

Um, the birds are flocking together because said poster keeps employing the same tactics, which many other posters have noticed and pointed out as well.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You're right about that.

The universe farting pixies told me that you are wrong. They also told me that Good is not limited to what Universe Farting Pixie deniers decide to include in their little box.

Since we're just believing in things without good evidence or any kind of demonstration of facts, you must believe what I say about the Universe Farting Pixies is true.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I believe the future as described in the Bible is coming, and therefore people will see the difference. Jesus spoke about Noah, and also spoke about the future similar to the days of Noah. You may have heard about it.

So ... nothing.

You haven't explained what makes your beliefs different from everybody else's beliefs about thousands of different other gods and their certainty that they are right about what they believe.

 

[John53]

I'd be surprised if you would be compelled by the truth. So that was not my intention. I simply pointed out you deliberate attempt to mislead from what is the truth.

If someone says, the sky is blue because someone got a brush and gallons and gallons of paint, and painted it, and I wanted to show them otherwise, with reference, I would clip the section that says why the sky is blue, and provide the link.
I don't need to provide anymore information from the page.
The person can read that for themselves.

So your claim that I left out parts deliberately to make it look like the quote supports my point, even though it doesn't, is clearly false, and a deliberate attempt to draw attention away from the truth - namely, that I am only pointing to one of the facts presented in the article... the other facts, being irrelevant to the one I quoted.

Following this logic it would be honest to clip relevant sections from the bible to make a point... "there is no God" Psalm 14. According to you context is irrelevant.

 

[dad]

Those are all old stories in old books. They are claims.

They are witnessed. Observed. Repeated. Your claims are posted on the net. They grow old fast.

They are not evidence of spirits anymore than Harry Potter books are evidence of magic.

False. When the major western kingdoms of history are recorded in prophesy before they existed, that was evidence. You seem to invent conspiracy theories and engage in selective denial.
When God works in a real way in people today, that is evidence! Don't cry to us because poor little science is left out and can't detect it's way out of a paper bag!

And those stories have nothing to do with spirits

Actually they are all about spirits.

. And now you've gone and thrown angels into the mix, as though it's been verified that they exist as well.

I have no reason to dispute the bible and the recorded witnessed events. You have no evidence that they were not observed as claimed. To engage in denial of Israel history, and the word of real apostles and witnesses is akin to last thursdayism.

You just keep piling on the claims while never actually demonstrating anything. Ever.

Don't accuse others of what so called science does for a living!

You said spirits are detectable

Daniel saw Gabriel. Jacob saw the angel of the Lord. Mary saw Gabriel. Zechariah saw the angel. Jesus saw the angels ministering to Him. Paul heard and saw a spirit that knocked him off the horse. Joseph had an angel appear to him by night. etc etc etc etc etc.

What is your definition of "spirit" by the way, because your examples don't seem relevant to what we are talking about.

A being that has a spiritual rather than physical body.

Science is the observation and measurement of the world around us.

Science is the observation and measurement of the FISHBOWL around us! It also measure the physical. Nothing to do with the far past or spirits.

If spirits are interacting with the world around us in any way, then they should be detectable. You said they are detectable, so the question is HOW are they detectable?

Part of the nature change was that spirits are no longer a part of life here, and seem to be more separate from man and the physical world. They no longer marry women for example. Spirits now still appear and exist, but are unseen unless a miracle happens and we are allowed to see them.

So you're actually going to sit here and say that evidence is not how we know things exist in the first place?

You do NOT know how things exist in the first place or we would not be talking!

As I've already told you, I don't have "origin beliefs."

On the contrary you embrace so called science.

How does this address what I said about rationality?

Perhaps some rationality would be needed to figure that out.

As I've said countless times before, I will accept things for which there is good evidence.

You openly deny things for which there is lots of evidence. What you mean is that your preferred definition of evidence is very very very limited and religious.

I wouldn't be a "god denier" if anyone had presented me with any good evidence that god(s) exist at all. So far, I have seen no such evidence. I'm also a "unicorn denier" and a "universe-farting pixie" denier, probably much like you are. Though who knows, judging from the way you go about determining what is true or false, you may very well believe in those things if I told you they were real.

You only accept the physical and limit what evidence means to your belief system.

 

[John53]

False. When the major western kingdoms of history are recorded in prophesy before they existed, that was evidence.

Could you provide some examples of this? I'd like to check them out.

 

[dad]

Could you provide some examples of this? I'd like to check them out.

Sure,

"Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar that his Babylonian Empire was represented by the head of gold (Daniel 2:37-38). The silver, bronze and iron components of the image, or statue, represented three powerful empires that were to follow mighty Babylon (Daniel 2:39-40).

This interpretation provided an astounding preview of history. Nebuchadnezzar’s dream occurred and was interpreted by Daniel about 600 B.C. The image represented, in symbolic form, the sequence of great empires that would dominate the region’s political scene for centuries.

“The silver empire was to be Medo-Persia, which began with Cyrus the Great, who conquered Babylon in 539 … This silver empire was supreme in the Near and Middle East for about two centuries” ( Expositor’s , p. 47).

“The bronze empire was the Greco-Macedonian Empire established by Alexander the Great … The bronze kingdom lasted for about 260 or 300 years before it was supplanted by the fourth kingdom” (ibid.).

“Iron connotes toughness and ruthlessness and describes the Roman Empire that reached its widest extent under the reign of Trajan” (ibid.). Trajan reigned as emperor A.D. 98-117, and the Roman Empire itself ruled for many centuries.

The fourth empire was depicted as having 10 toes. The feet and toes were composed partly of iron and partly of clay, as verse 41 explains. “Verse 41 deals with a later phase or outgrowth of this fourth empire, symbolized by the feet and ten toes—made up of iron and earthenware, a fragile base for the huge monument. The text clearly implies that this final phase will be marked by some sort of federation rather than by a powerful single realm” (ibid.)."

The Four Empires of Daniel's Prophecies

 

[John53]

Sure,

"Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar that his Babylonian Empire was represented by the head of gold (Daniel 2:37-38). The silver, bronze and iron components of the image, or statue, represented three powerful empires that were to follow mighty Babylon (Daniel 2:39-40).

This interpretation provided an astounding preview of history. Nebuchadnezzar’s dream occurred and was interpreted by Daniel about 600 B.C. The image represented, in symbolic form, the sequence of great empires that would dominate the region’s political scene for centuries.

“The silver empire was to be Medo-Persia, which began with Cyrus the Great, who conquered Babylon in 539 … This silver empire was supreme in the Near and Middle East for about two centuries” ( Expositor’s , p. 47).

“The bronze empire was the Greco-Macedonian Empire established by Alexander the Great … The bronze kingdom lasted for about 260 or 300 years before it was supplanted by the fourth kingdom” (ibid.).

“Iron connotes toughness and ruthlessness and describes the Roman Empire that reached its widest extent under the reign of Trajan” (ibid.). Trajan reigned as emperor A.D. 98-117, and the Roman Empire itself ruled for many centuries.

The fourth empire was depicted as having 10 toes. The feet and toes were composed partly of iron and partly of clay, as verse 41 explains. “Verse 41 deals with a later phase or outgrowth of this fourth empire, symbolized by the feet and ten toes—made up of iron and earthenware, a fragile base for the huge monument. The text clearly implies that this final phase will be marked by some sort of federation rather than by a powerful single realm” (ibid.)."

The Four Empires of Daniel's Prophecies

That's interpretation not major western kingdoms being recorded in prophecy.

 

[YoursTrue]

I'm verging on to the point of tearing my hair out.

Science doesn't do "proof", it does "evidence". Please stop asking for "proof" when you should alreadyQUOTE know by now that this is not something science can produce for a theory.

This is a confusing request for multiple reasons. Firstly, because I've already presented numerous scientific studies on speciation, and secondly because it seems unnecessarily vague.

What kind of thing are you expecting me to present? I've already explained to you the observed instances of evolution, and I've explained to you the evidence of common descent. Common descent isn't something evidenced by just ONE observation, it is a conclusion reached by looking at a wide range of available evidences. Do you want me to just present them again?

I'm verging on to the point of tearing my hair out.

Please don't do that.

Science doesn't do "proof", it does "evidence". Please stop asking for "proof" when you should already know by now that this is not something science can produce for a theory.

When I asked for proof, I didn't mean you should produce the actual bacteria, or two, three or ten that started the whole thing. I mean some form of verifiable evidence from the esteemed scientific reasoners that postulate life started with one, or more, maybe different unicells. Here's how I see their reasoning. "Life" started from a mixed bag of sorts, either something blew in from outer space, or lightning hit some molecules in water and something came up "alive" out of the water in the form of a unicell that had the ability to continue living, multiplying and changing into more complex lifeforms. Am I on the right track?
As said, or implied, the 'proof' is the reasoning that something happened with no purpose, it just happened by circumstances.

What kind of thing are you expecting me to present? I've already explained to you the observed instances of evolution, and I've explained to you the evidence of common descent. Common descent isn't something evidenced by just ONE observation, it is a conclusion reached by looking at a wide range of available evidences. Do you want me to just present them again?

 

[YoursTrue]

That's interpretation not major western kingdoms being recorded in prophecy.

Those recorded dreams and prophecies are very interesting. (For some, that is.)

 

[YoursTrue]

So ... nothing.

You haven't explained what makes your beliefs different from everybody else's beliefs about thousands of different other gods and their certainty that they are right about what they believe.

I haven't read all other religious books. I have read portions of the book of Mormon and also the Koran. I was not impressed. But as I as listening to a discussion among doctors today, I wondered, how come it is that only humans (and those of the modern variety) that do testing, work on pharmaceuticals, try to cure illnesses. Despite the percentage it is claimed that other animals share and so little difference between humans and bonobos, how come bonobos don't have labs and sewing factories? What makes them so different? You might think it's evolution. I find that hard to believe (accept as the answer).

 

[YoursTrue]

So ... nothing.

You haven't explained what makes your beliefs different from everybody else's beliefs about thousands of different other gods and their certainty that they are right about what they believe.

Another thing -- when I was in school (many years ago) there was never a time we were afraid of guns in school or on the street. Never.

 

[YoursTrue]

So ... nothing.

You haven't explained what makes your beliefs different from everybody else's beliefs about thousands of different other gods and their certainty that they are right about what they believe.

I have started to. The Bible promises that one day those blessed by God will live on a peaceful new earth. Psalm 72. Have you heard of any other god promising these things?

 

[John53]

Those recorded dreams and prophecies are very interesting. (For some, that is.)

Sure they're interesting but so vague and open to interpretation as to be virtually useless as anything other than interesting. I've seen it claimed that the same prophecies refer to America and Russia, even Nazi Germany.