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Evolution My ToE

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Sure they're interesting but so vague and open to interpretation as to be virtually useless as anything other than interesting. I've seen it claimed that the same prophecies refer to America and Russia, even Nazi Germany.
They are like the prophecies of Nostradamus. Some of his prophecies have been "fulfilled" several times. The Bible is actually a book of failed prophecies. The prophecy that Tyre would be utterly destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar, the prophecy of Jesus that he would be back withing the lifetimes of at least some of the people in the room where he made that promise. When the Bible makes clear and specific prophecies they fail badly. And prophecies that have several interpretations fail to meet the standard of being a prophesy that should be given any credence. Rational Wiki has an excellent article on Bible prophecies and gives reasonable standards for prophecies:

Biblical prophecies - RationalWiki

"For a statement to be Biblical foreknowledge, it must fit all of the five following criteria:

  1. It must be accurate. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it is not accurate, because knowledge (and thus foreknowledge) excludes inaccurate statements. TLDR: It's true.
  2. It must be in the Bible. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it is not in the Bible, because Biblical by definition foreknowledge can only come from the Bible itself, rather than modern reinterpretations of the text. TLDR: It's in plain words in the Bible.
  3. It must be precise and unambiguous. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if meaningless philosophical musings or multiple possible ideas could fulfill the foreknowledge, because ambiguity prevents one from knowing whether the foreknowledge was intentional rather than accidental. TLDR: Vague "predictions" don't count.
  4. It must be improbable. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of a pure guess, because foreknowledge requires a person to actually know something true, while a correct guess doesn't mean that the guesser knows anything. This also excludes contemporary beliefs that happened be true but were believed to be true without solid evidence. TLDR: Lucky guesses don't count.
  5. It must have been unknown. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of an educated guess based off contemporary knowledge, because foreknowledge requires a person to know a statement when it would have been impossible, outside of supernatural power, for that person to know it. TLDR: Ideas of the time don't count."
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
They are witnessed. Observed. Repeated. Your claims are posted on the net. They grow old fast.
They are not any of those things. They are all one-off events. They are not observable, testable and repeatable events.

Bible stories are claims, not evidence. And extraordinary claims, at that. The evidence comes from a demonstration that the claims are true, not mere assertions.

False. When the major western kingdoms of history are recorded in prophesy before they existed, that was evidence. You seem to invent conspiracy theories and engage in selective denial.
It’s true. If you say it’s false, then you need to present the evidence for the existence of spirits. Plain and simple.

Prophecy is nonsense and does not demonstrate the existence of spirits. Seriously, do you not understand what evidence is? Show us a spirit. Shows us some kind of measurement of spirits or the spirit world that have been taken. Show us how spirits interact in the natural world. Something, anything!

What selective denial do you think I am engaging in? And what conspiracy theory have I invented?? It sounds like you’re projecting. And I’m guessing you deny the claims of say, the Qu’ran, correct? Why is that?

When God works in a real way in people today, that is evidence!
How have you demonstrated that God works in “real ways?”
What “real ways?”
Don't cry to us because poor little science is left out and can't detect it's way out of a paper bag!
That’s rich. Really, it is. And bizarre.

You’re the one who can’t “detect your way out of a paper bag.” Where are these spirits you claim exist?

Science can demonstrate it’s claims. You cannot. As you’ve demonstrated time and time again on this forum.

Actually they are all about spirits.

In what way?

I have no reason to dispute the bible and the recorded witnessed events. You have no evidence that they were not observed as claimed. To engage in denial of Israel history, and the word of real apostles and witnesses is akin to last thursdayism.

Just because you accept the Bible and claim that it’s full of “recorded witnessed events” (which it is not) doesn’t magically make it true. You have to show that something is true, rather than just asserting it. The Qu’ran isn’t true just because some people believe it. Zeus isn’t real, just because somebody believes it. And angels aren’t true, just because the old book you accept at face value says there are angels. Such claims need to be demonstrated, just like the claim that “unicorns exist” needs to be demonstrated rather than asserted.

Don't accuse others of what so called science does for a living!

Nonsense. You’re projecting again.

By the sounds of your posts, you don’t seem to have any idea what science is or what evidence is to begin with.

Daniel saw Gabriel. Jacob saw the angel of the Lord. Mary saw Gabriel. Zechariah saw the angel. Jesus saw the angels ministering to Him. Paul heard and saw a spirit that knocked him off the horse. Joseph had an angel appear to him by night. etc etc etc etc etc.

Good grief. That is not evidence. Those are claims!

A being that has a spiritual rather than physical body.

How do we know such things exist? Can you show us one? Don’t tell me that someone in an old book claims that they exist. That is NOT evidence.

You said “spirits are detectable.” You have yet to tell me how to detect one.

Science is the observation and measurement of the FISHBOWL around us! It also measure the physical. Nothing to do with the far past or spirits.

So then how do we know that spirits exist at all, given that they are not detectable (despite your previous claim that they are), they are not measurable and they are not physical. That sounds like a thing that doesn’t exist.

Part of the nature change was that spirits are no longer a part of life here, and seem to be more separate from man and the physical world. They no longer marry women for example. Spirits now still appear and exist, but are unseen unless a miracle happens and we are allowed to see them.
That doesn’t explain how they are detectable.

You need to DEMONSTRATE these extraordinary claims, if you want anybody to take you seriously.

You do NOT know how things exist in the first place or we would not be talking!

Huh?

What I said was, we know things exist, when there is evidence for the existence of said thing. Not before that. For some bizarre reason, you seem to be denying that, which would mean that you accept every single thing anybody ever told you, until someone showed it to be wrong? How on earth would anyone make it through life that way?

On the contrary you embrace so called science.

I embrace the scientific method because it’s the single most useful tool we have ever come up with to accurately observe and measure the world around us. It has produced all the knowledge we currently hold about … well, everything.

As I said, I don’t hold an “origin belief.”

Perhaps some rationality would be needed to figure that out.

I’d love if you’d try using some.

You openly deny things for which there is lots of evidence.

Such as?

. What you mean is that your preferred definition of evidence is very very very limited and religious.

It’s limited to that which is observable, measurable, testable, repeatable, etc.

Thing that are not detectable are basically the same as non-existent things because there is no way to ever discover anything about them at all, including whether they exist or not.

You only accept the physical and limit what evidence means to your belief system.
I accept that which is observable, measurable, detectable, testable, etc. Most people do, because it’s the rational position to hold. And most people do this in every single facet of life, save for religious belief. That apparently goes in some separate box so it can be sheltered and protected.

What do you think my belief system is?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I haven't read all other religious books. I have read portions of the book of Mormon and also the Koran. I was not impressed. But as I as listening to a discussion among doctors today, I wondered, how come it is that only humans (and those of the modern variety) that do testing, work on pharmaceuticals, try to cure illnesses. Despite the percentage it is claimed that other animals share and so little difference between humans and bonobos, how come bonobos don't have labs and sewing factories? What makes them so different? You might think it's evolution. I find that hard to believe (accept as the answer).
Please don't try to change the subject.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I have started to. The Bible promises that one day those blessed by God will live on a peaceful new earth. Psalm 72. Have you heard of any other god promising these things?
Norse mythology has a story about how after the great battle at the end of the world, a fresh, new, fertile world will emerge and be repopulated and everyone lives happily ever after. Maybe you should be worshiping Thor and Odin. :shrug:


But again, I'm still wondering why you think the particular message being conveyed is true just because you like the sound of it? Or ... what? I don't get it. Things aren't true just because we like them.
 

dad

Undefeated
They are not any of those things. They are all one-off events. They are not observable, testable and repeatable events.

Bible stories are claims, not evidence. And extraordinary claims, at that. The evidence comes from a demonstration that the claims are true, not mere assertions.


It’s true. If you say it’s false, then you need to present the evidence for the existence of spirits. Plain and simple.

Prophecy is nonsense and does not demonstrate the existence of spirits. Seriously, do you not understand what evidence is? Show us a spirit. Shows us some kind of measurement of spirits or the spirit world that have been taken. Show us how spirits interact in the natural world. Something, anything!

What selective denial do you think I am engaging in? And what conspiracy theory have I invented?? It sounds like you’re projecting. And I’m guessing you deny the claims of say, the Qu’ran, correct? Why is that?


How have you demonstrated that God works in “real ways?”
What “real ways?”

That’s rich. Really, it is. And bizarre.

You’re the one who can’t “detect your way out of a paper bag.” Where are these spirits you claim exist?

Science can demonstrate it’s claims. You cannot. As you’ve demonstrated time and time again on this forum.



In what way?



Just because you accept the Bible and claim that it’s full of “recorded witnessed events” (which it is not) doesn’t magically make it true. You have to show that something is true, rather than just asserting it. The Qu’ran isn’t true just because some people believe it. Zeus isn’t real, just because somebody believes it. And angels aren’t true, just because the old book you accept at face value says there are angels. Such claims need to be demonstrated, just like the claim that “unicorns exist” needs to be demonstrated rather than asserted.



Nonsense. You’re projecting again.

By the sounds of your posts, you don’t seem to have any idea what science is or what evidence is to begin with.



Good grief. That is not evidence. Those are claims!



How do we know such things exist? Can you show us one? Don’t tell me that someone in an old book claims that they exist. That is NOT evidence.

You said “spirits are detectable.” You have yet to tell me how to detect one.



So then how do we know that spirits exist at all, given that they are not detectable (despite your previous claim that they are), they are not measurable and they are not physical. That sounds like a thing that doesn’t exist.

That doesn’t explain how they are detectable.

You need to DEMONSTRATE these extraordinary claims, if you want anybody to take you seriously.



Huh?

What I said was, we know things exist, when there is evidence for the existence of said thing. Not before that. For some bizarre reason, you seem to be denying that, which would mean that you accept every single thing anybody ever told you, until someone showed it to be wrong? How on earth would anyone make it through life that way?



I embrace the scientific method because it’s the single most useful tool we have ever come up with to accurately observe and measure the world around us. It has produced all the knowledge we currently hold about … well, everything.

As I said, I don’t hold an “origin belief.”



I’d love if you’d try using some.



Such as?



It’s limited to that which is observable, measurable, testable, repeatable, etc.

Thing that are not detectable are basically the same as non-existent things because there is no way to ever discover anything about them at all, including whether they exist or not.

I accept that which is observable, measurable, detectable, testable, etc. Most people do, because it’s the rational position to hold. And most people do this in every single facet of life, save for religious belief. That apparently goes in some separate box so it can be sheltered and protected.

What do you think my belief system is?
So you want to stuff all things that can be counted as evidence into the ridiculous physical only limited confines of science. That will leave you denying all things spiritual and historical. Try being open minded.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Christians were not involved or included in ancient restrictions for Israel. Keep up.
You obviously do not know your Christian History. If the early Christians really wanted to divorce themselves from the Old Testament, they would have followed Marcion instead of hereticizing him. You do know who Marcion is, don't you?

However, since they did not follow Marcion, you are left with the Gospels and Jesus' words.

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)

“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law” (John7:19)​


You don't get to decide. Jesus did that for you.





Changes are not contradictions. When the post flood world came, there was a change where meat was cool. When His kingdom comes, it changes again, nothing kills any more so no meat. Some narrow minded so called science fundamentalists seem to think all changes are bad, including nature.
The Gospels were written after the Flud. Don't you know that? I'll remind you, again, of what Jesus said...
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. (Matthew 5:17)
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Changes are not contradictions. When the post flood world came, there was a change where meat was cool. When His kingdom comes, it changes again, nothing kills any more so no meat. Some narrow minded so called science fundamentalists seem to think all changes are bad, including nature.
The Gospels were written after the Flud. Don't you know that?
Maybe He wanted to make you feel like you were included?
I am included. I don't kill. I don't covet my neighbor's ***. But, unlike many Christians, I am not a hypocrite.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
It doesn't matter. Your omniscient God knew what would happen. Your omniscient God set them up to fail.
I do not agree that to learn is to fail. For important life lessons we are better off to learn. Either the hard way or some easier way. Adam needed the hard way.

To learn? Really? The hard way? Really?

Your omniscient God made certain that A&E would fail the morality test so that He could condemn all of mankind.

Your omniscient God made certain that A&E would fail the morality test so that He could condemn all women to painful childbirths.

16To the woman he said,
“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.

Then your misogynistic God made her forever subservient...
for your husband, and he will rule over you.”

Then He messed up things for Adam

“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.


And finally, after banishing them from the Garden, He made sure no one could ever eat from the other tree...
24After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
The flaming sword flashing back and forth and the cherubim are still there, on the East side of the Garden of Eden, guarding the way to the tree of life.

They are still there, aren't they? Hmm. I wonder what happened to them. Scripture don't say.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
I am under no delusion that your total indoctrination would allow you to believe anything anyone might say that goes against deeply ingrained beliefs.

? That misfired sentence has what to do with the inability of science to deal in the spiritual?

Misfired? What is that supposed to even mean?

The one thing that is clear to anyone and everyone is your absolute denial of science when it conflicts in any way with your deeply indoctrinated religious beliefs.

You can deny it. You can try to tap dance all around it, but that will not change the reality of the situation.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
You know what I find interesting? That some, I think, believe that Neanderthals were all killed out or died out, don't they?

OK, there are no Neanderthals living today. What's your point?

And some (evolutionists
What's an evolutionist?




and scientists that describe previous cataclysms) also believe that there were great disasters wiping out lots and lots of animals and possibly (?) some of those they claim were close humanoid types.
OK. Science estimates that over 90% of all species that have lived on earth have died out. What's your point?


Not that it means one should believe in the Bible, but yet you do believe there were great disasters, don't you?

What's your point? The nonsense in the Bible did not happen.

For example, we have learned that the sun could not have stood still.
For example, we have learned that Jews did not wander in the desert for forty years.
For example, we have learned that the universe is a lot older than the bible states.
For example, we have learned that the writers of the Gospels were not firsthand witnesses to the words of Jesus.
For example, we have learned that there was no global flood that killed almost all humans and animals 4000 years ago.

If the Bible was "Divinely Inspired" it might have included...

And God saw that the Great Beasts would kill all man.
And God brought a great star to fall from the sky and kill all the Great Beasts.
And man will dig deeply into the ground and find the remains of Great Beasts that once roamed the entire earth.
... but, it didn't.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Are you asking me if God is omniscient? No.

That puts you into a small minority of Christians. Most Christians believe that God is Omnipotent, omniscient and eternal.

Does that mean God is not the Almighty Creator with power over the heavens and the earth? No, that He is not omniscient in the sense most people think of omniscience does not mean He does not have ultimate, unlimited power.
You do not get to define what the word "onmiscient" means.
om·nis·cient
/ämˈnisēənt,ämˈniSHənt/

  1. knowing everything.

Either your God has knowledge of everything that ever happened, everything that is happening now, and everything that will ever happen, or He is not omniscient.


As the Bible says, no one can check His hand. He knows what He wants to know.

Trying to redefine "omniscient" isn't good enough for you, now you want to make up scripture. Show where the Bible says "He knows what He wants to know".

He could have created Adam foreseeing what he would do, but He didn't.
That is your opinion. That is not substantiated by scripture. If you want to start your own religion then you can write any scripture you want to.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
But as I as listening to a discussion among doctors today, I wondered, how come it is that only humans (and those of the modern variety) that do testing, work on pharmaceuticals, try to cure illnesses.

Where did this discussion take place. Was this on television or a conference or were you invited to join a small group of professionals?

What kind of doctors were involved in the discussion?
 

ecco

Veteran Member
I have started to. The Bible promises that one day those blessed by God will live on a peaceful new earth. Psalm 72. Have you heard of any other god promising these things?

So, the reason you believe in the God of the Christians is because, you think, He is offering the best deal.

Is it any better than Muhammed promise to people who die for His cause? Do you know what Muhammed's promises are? Have you studied the Koran?

Is it any better than the promises of Mormons? You don't just get "a peaceful new earth" you get a who planet.

Have you also considered how to best asses the probability of these gods keeping their promises? Have you really discussed these things with Mormons and Muslims?
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
Call them what you like, how about major world kingdoms that affected Israel?

The most accurate way would be... here's a Bible quote that can and has been interpreted in hundreds of different ways, this is the interpretation I agree with. If however you can give me a Bible prophesy that gives accurate dates and names and I would be very interested.
 
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