Baha'i and Science

[loverofhumanity]

And of course, one of the most crucial steps to achieving peace is combating hateful, homophobic, and unscientific beliefs with logical and rational discourse.

I would guess Baha'u'llah rather predictably didn't talk about that, though.

Baha’u’llah suffered immensely over 40 years for us not for Himself but He wasn’t going to give us any advice that was not beneficial for us. He looked out for us and despite severe opposition gave us laws that were in our best interests even though we may not agree.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Again, Krishna is not the founder of Hinduism. Hinduism has no founder. Just where are you getting all this wrong information?

The Baha'is seem to put special emphasis on Krishna.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Baha’u’llah suffered immensely over 40 years for us not for Himself but He wasn’t going to give us any advice that was not beneficial for us. He looked out for us and despite severe opposition gave us laws that were in our best interests even though we may not agree.

It would sure be unfortunate if I suffered immensely for 40 years only to spread beliefs that still inspire tribalism, hatred, and self-aggrandizing preaching to this day.

I'd rather play video games and work an actually productive job instead.

 

[loverofhumanity]

You believe in reincarnation AND heaven and hell? You believe in Ganesha AND that idol worship is sinful? You believe that Jesus existed AND that he didn't? You believe that women and men are equal AND that women aren't fit to serve on the UHJ? It must be so confusing to believe in all this obviously contradictory stuff.

Reincarnation is understood in different ways. We believe in the return of the qualities not the essence. So the roses of this season return again next spring but not the exact physical rose. My understanding is that many idols are associated or named after attributes of God. While we don’t worship the physical form of the attribute we do beleve in the spiritual attributes of God. So while Ganesha is believed to be the remover of obstacles Baha’is believe that God is the Remover of Difficulties.

We believe Jesus physically existed. Men can’t conceive children does that mean God has discriminated against man? Roles of men and women are equal in our Faith except the Universal House of Justice is deemed by Baha’u’llah not a role for women. There is a wisdom in this because at all other levels of Baha’i administration women enjoy full equality in leadership roles. We are told in time it will be obvious but until it does we don’t expect anyone to give us the benefit of the doubt..

 

[Vinayaka]

The Baha'is seem to put special emphasis on Krishna.

It's a backwards in time extension of 'progressive revelation' and makes no sense whatsoever to anyone except Baha'is. Christians, atheists, secular people, all the Hindus of course, everyone claims that Hinduism has no known founder. You could look up 10 000 sources and that's what they would say. But if you looked up what Baha'is say, they say that Krishna is the founder of Hinduism. (I personally don't believe in Krishna as I'm in another sect.)

FYI, this was the original reason I got into a discussion with members of the Baha'i faith here on this forum ... just to point out that they were wrong about this ... even in polite terms, wishing for them to be more accurate ... for their sake. But as you can see from LofH's post, my discussion has had no effect whatsoever. That has to do with not listening to what people have to say. It's 'oh yeah, I understand', but then continue with the same old misconception as if nothing happened. Yes, it's annoying, yes it's frustrating.

Good luck. I'll be out most likely. No point hitting my head against a brick wall for much longer ... again (sigh)

 

[loverofhumanity]

It would sure be unfortunate if I suffered immensely for 40 years only to spread beliefs that still inspire tribalism, hatred, and self-aggrandizing preaching to this day.

I'd rather play video games and work an actually productive job instead.

Anything you would like to quote?

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

It's a backwards in time extension of 'progressive revelation' and makes no sense whatsoever to anyone except Baha'is. Christians, atheists, secular people, all the Hindus of course, everyone claims that Hinduism has no known founder. You could look up 10 000 sources and that's what they would say. But if you looked up what Baha'is say, they say that Krishna is the founder of Hinduism. (I personally don't believe in Krishna as I'm in another sect.)

FYI, this was the original reason I got into a discussion with members of the Baha'i faith here on this forum ... just to point out that they were wrong about this ... even in polite terms, wishing for them to be more accurate ... for their sake. But as you can see from LofH's post, my discussion has had no effect whatsoever. That has to do with not listening to what people have to say. It's 'oh yeah, I understand', but then continue with the same old misconception as if nothing happened. Yes, it's annoying, yes it;s frustrating.

Good luck. I'll be out most likely. No point hitting my head against a brick wall for much longer ... again (sigh)

I understand if you do. But thanks so much for the posts. One shouldn't always try to win over the person they argue with, but the audience, making them see alternatives of ideas, etc.

But in any case, I've gained much of what I wanted to know.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Anything you would like to quote?

Your own posts about LGBT issues in this thread?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Again, Krishna is not the founder of Hinduism. Hinduism has no founder. Just where are you getting all this wrong information?

I didn’t say He was. Krishna we believe was a Manifestation of God. Not all Hindu sects accept Him.

 

[loverofhumanity]

It's a backwards in time extension of 'progressive revelation' and makes no sense whatsoever to anyone except Baha'is. Christians, atheists, secular people, all the Hindus of course, everyone claims that Hinduism has no known founder. You could look up 10 000 sources and that's what they would say. But if you looked up what Baha'is say, they say that Krishna is the founder of Hinduism. (I personally don't believe in Krishna as I'm in another sect.)

FYI, this was the original reason I got into a discussion with members of the Baha'i faith here on this forum ... just to point out that they were wrong about this ... even in polite terms, wishing for them to be more accurate ... for their sake. But as you can see from LofH's post, my discussion has had no effect whatsoever. That has to do with not listening to what people have to say. It's 'oh yeah, I understand', but then continue with the same old misconception as if nothing happened. Yes, it's annoying, yes it's frustrating.

Good luck. I'll be out most likely. No point hitting my head against a brick wall for much longer ... again (sigh)

Krishna is not the Founder of Hinduism. He is, we believe a Manifestation of God. Some sects of Hinduism do believe in Him but that’s all.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Your own posts about LGBT issues in this thread?

I meant your saying Baha’u’llah preaches hate.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I meant your saying Baha’u’llah preaches hate.

Homophobia is hate, as far as I can see. So is sexism.

 

[Vinayaka]

I didn’t say He was. Krishna we believe was a Manifestation of God. Not all Hindu sects accept Him.

Yes you did. Post 73. "I accept all the Founders of all the major Faiths. Buddha, Krishna, Muhammad, Zoroaster, Jesus and Moses."

Now it's the contradictory ... I did AND I didn't. lol

 

[loverofhumanity]

Vaishnavism is one of the major [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_denominations']Hindu denominations along with Shaivism, Shaktism, and Smartism.[/URL]

The tradition is notable for its avatar doctrine, wherein Vishnu is revered in one of many distinct incarnations. Rama, Krishna, Narayana, Kalki, Hari, Vithoba, Kesava, Madhava, Govinda, Srinathji and Jagannath are among the popular names used for the same supreme being

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaishnavism

So although it’s incorrect to say that Hinduism as a whole believes or was founded by Krishna a major sect of Hinduism does believe in Him.

So Baha’is have not been politically correct in saying Krishna represents all of Hinduism but a major sect, yes. But I believe to associate the name Krishna with a sect of Hinduism is not wrong because a major sect accepts Him.

So let me reiterate. Hinduism’s origin is unknown so we cannot say Krishna founded it but we do believe He was a Manifestation of God.

As regards your study of the Hindu religion: The origins of this and many other religions that abound in India are not quite known to us, and even the Orientalists and the students of religion are not in complete accord about the results of their investigations in that field.
(Shoghi Effend 1936)

I thank Vinayaka for previously correcting me on this but in this thread I have not stated that Krishna Founded Hinduism although perhaps the way I wrote it may have seemed that way. Humble apologies if that was the case.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes you did. Post 73. "I accept all the Founders of all the major Faiths. Buddha, Krishna, Muhammad, Zoroaster, Jesus and Moses."

Now it's the contradictory ... I did AND I didn't. lol

That's my mistake. Thanks for picking it up. Please be patient as it’s a bad habit I have to correct.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In my view however, what you stated is a form of God pushing me away. Then His followers push me away too, indirectly or directly. There's only so much one can take from God before they become an atheist.

We are our own choices, we are responsible for those choices. Thus we view life from a material perspective, or from a spiritual perspective, or from a combination of both.

All the Messengers from God have told us to rise above this material world and all it offers, thus to me it is the spiritual nature we are to pursue.

So our greatest choices become those of the Spirit. Thus where do we turn to for those answers. We know each of us has been made in God's image, what does then mean? How do we release that potential?

That search, the discovery of our own self, becomes a major part of our life, or it does not. We draw towards the source or we keep ourselves from the source. This Hidden Word I have found is very true;

"O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant."

I wish for you all the best, regards Tony

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

We are our own choices, we are responsible for those choices. Thus we view life from a material perspective, or from a spiritual perspective, or from a combination of both.

All the Messengers from God have told us to rise above this material world and all it offers, thus to me it is the spiritual nature we are to pursue.

So our greatest choices become those of the Spirit. Thus where do we turn to for those answers. We know each of us has been made in God's image, what does then mean? How do we release that potential?

That search, the discovery of our own self, becomes a major part of our life, or it does not. We draw towards the source or we keep ourselves from the source. This Hidden Word I have found is very true;

"O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant."

I wish for you all the best, regards Tony

Thanks.

There's already existed a time when I put religious beliefs above subjects like science, psychology, etc, etc, thinking that mental illness was a form of spiritual warfare, because people showed me verses about Jesus casting mental illness/demons into pigs.

Really there's no possible way I'm going to make that same mistake again, intentionally.

So, I'm afraid I'll just have to dismiss the Baha'i faith, with some sorrow, as claiming a lot, but delivering on few claims. I can't be a part of a faith that thinks up is down and excludes followers who know up is up using the same approaches said faith claims to follow - which is following science, etc.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Homophobia is hate, as far as I can see. So is sexism.

You’re entitled to view it that way and go your own way as we go ours.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Thanks.

There's already existed a time when I put religious beliefs above subjects like science, psychology, etc, etc, thinking that mental illness was a form of spiritual warfare, because people showed me verses about Jesus casting mental illness/demons into pigs.

Really there's no possible way I'm going to make that same mistake again, intentionally.

So, I'm afraid I'll just have to dismiss the Baha'i faith, with some sorrow, as claiming a lot, but delivering on few claims. I can't be a part of a faith that thinks up is down and excludes followers who know up is up using the same approaches said faith claims to follow - which is following science, etc.

But, I have few regrets. The theology of it all IS interesting, and it provided me a good crutch between the superstition I used to believe in, and me moving toward a more questioning view of the world which takes into account science, etc.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The Baha'is seem to put special emphasis on Krishna.

No. It was just that my dear friend here was upset I incorrectly said Krishna was the Founder of Hinduism so I went out of my way to clarify and apologise.