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Baha'i and Science

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I accept all the Founders of all the major Faiths. Buddha, Krishna, Muhammad, Zoroaster, Jesus and Moses

Again, Krishna is not the founder of Hinduism.
I didn’t say He was. Krishna we believe was a Manifestation of God. Not all Hindu sects accept Him.
That's my mistake. Thanks for picking it up. Please be patient as it’s a bad habit I have to correct.

I agree with what @loverofhumanity said and no apologies were needed. It was not stated that Krishna founded Hinduism in that post.

Krishna founded a Major Faith, from God. Krishna is the Light who shone upon the world in that age and inspired the mind and thoughts of man.

@Vinayaka, We are well aware that Hinduism is not the name that became fully inclusive of that Message, that Hindu is wide in its embrace, but it is fair to say that Hinduism as a whole in its diversity and no matter what source, has embrace on various levels, the Light that shined from that source. It is also fair to say that Hinduism also shares the Light of all the worlds Faiths.

It is that light that builds unity, it is that light that promotes Love and kindness and our desire to do good for all.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But, I have few regrets. The theology of it all IS interesting, and it provided me a good crutch between the superstition I used to believe in, and me moving toward a more questioning view of the world which takes into account science, etc.

It is your journey and you know we wish you always well and happy.

Regards Tony
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
But, I have few regrets. The theology of it all IS interesting, and it provided me a good crutch between the superstition I used to believe in, and me moving toward a more questioning view of the world which takes into account science, etc.

How is the Baha’i Faith not in harmony with science?. Which sciences? There are hypothesis, theories and speculations which scientific process goes through to determine a fact. Which established scientific truths do you believe we are not in unity with?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No. It was just that my dear friend here was upset I incorrectly said Krishna was the Founder of Hinduism so I went out of my way to clarify and apologise.

I did not go back through all posts, but dear friend, Krishna was the Light of God that Shined upon this earth. Krishna is thus the source of all our Faith. :)

Krishna founded a major Faith and we do not need to apologise for that belief.

We now know what Krishna founded did not maintain an exclusive name, that it became part of what is known as Hinduism, which has a great diversity of founding sources and thoughts and that is very good to know.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Thanks.

There's already existed a time when I put religious beliefs above subjects like science, psychology, etc, etc, thinking that mental illness was a form of spiritual warfare, because people showed me verses about Jesus casting mental illness/demons into pigs.

Really there's no possible way I'm going to make that same mistake again, intentionally.

So, I'm afraid I'll just have to dismiss the Baha'i faith, with some sorrow, as claiming a lot, but delivering on few claims. I can't be a part of a faith that thinks up is down and excludes followers who know up is up using the same approaches said faith claims to follow - which is following science, etc.

That is part of the choices we have.

From my point of view the Message given by Baha'u'llah is in balance with science.

An unbounded liberalisation of mind has distorted the way we see science and the way we use it. Faith balances the use of science and science can balance faith.

Big topic and all I can say is keep an open mind, there is so much more to know.

Regards Tony
 

PoetPhilosopher

Veteran Member
How is the Baha’i Faith not in harmony with science?. Which sciences? There are hypothesis, theories and speculations which scientific process goes through to determine a fact. Which established scientific truths do you believe we are not in unity with?

Its views on LGBTQ+ are as backwards as they can get. It also oftentimes seeks to exclude homosexuality from within Baha'i, creating prejudice against LGBTQ+ which is further backed by Shoghi and demonstrating itself as a faith against LGBTQ+, even if people want to subscribe to the faith who are.

Now the only debate, is whether ignoring mental health and psychology, is ignoring a facet of science.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I understand if you do. But thanks so much for the posts. One shouldn't always try to win over the person they argue with, but the audience, making them see alternatives of ideas, etc.

But in any case, I've gained much of what I wanted to know.

I'm glad I was of some help. Your words totally agree with why I post alternative positions on such threads as this. Not for the Baha'i, as they are unchangeable, and will just argue incessantly, but for the readers (like you) that may happen along. Otherwise the readers might fall into the trap you almost fell into. Congratulations, and welcome to the long search for meaning in life. Any disappointment leads to new challenges. Best wishes with your continued sojourn.
 

PoetPhilosopher

Veteran Member
I'm glad I was of some help. Your words totally agree with why I post alternative positions on such threads as this. Not for the Baha'i, as they are unchangeable, and will just argue incessantly, but for the readers (like you) that may happen along. Otherwise the readers might fall into the trap you almost fell into. Congratulations, and welcome to the long search for meaning in life. Any disappointment leads to new challenges. Best wishes with your continued sojourn.

Thanks. I just hope my activist side didn't come out too much in this thread, and if it did, that it's not misinterpreted as me being very, very upset. I can see where the other side is coming from, just I have to put myself first over religious messages meant for a large audience and neither claiming to be from God or not claiming to be from God, who try to break into what I can and can't do in a way I perceive will affect my health.

And when I say health, I mean me becoming the T in LGBTQ+ as part of both happiness and my pursuit of happiness. Nor do I take it much better when the G is treated in such a way, either.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So science that disagrees with Baha'u'llah is wrong? So what happened to religions that don't fit with science are superstitious?

I would ask what science agrees with Faith?

Faith is a spiritual journey, science is the discovery of our material world.

The balance is that Faith, which is Love and virtue, can guide what we do with science. Science, which is the discovery of material truths can balance faith that has become built upon superstitions.

The laws given by Baha'u'llah are not scientific statements, they are for our spiritual health and when obeyed will foster material well-being.

In that process some laws we will find easy, some we will find hard and some we will most likely fail to act upon. Life is about that journey, a journey all of humanity takes.

In this age I see Baha'u'llah has given the guidance and laws required for humanity to reach its potential. Thus is we all sat down, stopped our conflicts and discussed the issues, we would most likely start developing new science and start fostering a love for all humanity and the desire to to good for all.

That day will come, but this is not that day, the dawn from the first glimmerings of light to the sun at its apex could very well be 500 years, I see that would mean the light will soon shine over the horizon and the darkness will dissipate.

Regards Tony
 
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TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The only thing this all tells me, is that Baha'is need to stop saying they promote peace, universal beliefs and listening to science.

Other than that, I'm fine. Why not call a religion a religion if it's a religion?

Why would you want us to stop practising and promoting what we beleive, are they not worthy goals?

You know are free to pursue life as you see it is and choose how to live it and a Baha'i will always wish you all the best and much happiness.

You know you are always welcome to participate in community activities and services alongside the Baha'i, we would welcome your participation and assistance, no one has to, no one is coherced to make a choice that is not made in their own heart, by their own free will.

(Disclaimer - In practice that may not always be the case, but we are all learning :) )

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think science is fairly good as it is.

I worry about this "new science" though.

There is good and bad in all things. This world is one of opposites. When we accept that is so, we see there is nothing we can not learn from.

A unity of mind based in virtue is needed to unlock great and wonderful science.

Regards Tony
 
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes I understand perfectly what homosexuality is but as it is forbidden in our religion then so is it’s spread and promotion forbidden within our communities. Our writings say it is not normal or natural and we should try and overcome it even with medical assistance.
Promoting gayness? Dear lord, is that ignorance. I've been exposed to openly gay couples quite often, and never once did I feel like becoming gay myself. Why not? Because being gay is not a choice. I'm not tempted to be other than who I was born as sexually. It's the same thing with gays. They aren't tempted by hetrosexuality being "promoted" by straight couples in the exact same ways I'm not tempted by gay people being themselves either, which you call "promoting" it.

I have to say, realistically speaking, those who are worried about gayness like this are themselves probably bi-sexual, having both hetrosexual and homosexual attractions. But considering how taboo homosexuality is, they try to repress and fight against that tendency in themselves, calling gay a "lifestyle choice". Being gay is not a choice for me, but it is for bisexuals. When I hear the claim it is a choice, I hear them saying it a choice for themselves to do or not to do what they feel tempted to. I feel no temptation at all, because I'm solidy hetrosexual, not by choice, but by nature.

Being a Baha'i however is a lifestyle choice, and if it means you can't be true to yourself, then I'd say it's best not to promote it to others who are bi-sexual and struggle with all this religious conservative dogma that being gay is a sin. There is help for those recovering from religion, which is a choice.

The Baha’i Faith only recognises marriage between a man and a woman.
Hence why those who are gay, will not find loving acceptance by them, unless it's some horrid idea of "curing them". How tragic, and primitive. I've known gays who were put through these insane "cure the gay" programs. They needed therapy to recover from the trauma it inflicted upon them. God is far more loving than religious conservatives seem to care to realize.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
............................. I see a child should be able to flourish in Love without being steered or directed in any way by a world that has become obsessed with sexual identities and exploits.

Regards Tony

Unfortunately Bahai DOES try to subject and influence folks about gender identity and sexual orientation.

It also subjects Bahai folks to entering marriages without any idea of their new spouse's (or their own) sexuality. Hence those nasty Bahai divorces.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Thanks. I just hope my activist side didn't come out too much in this thread, and if it did, that it's not misinterpreted as me being very, very upset. I can see where the other side is coming from, just I have to put myself first over religious messages meant for a large audience and neither claiming to be from God or not claiming to be from God, who try to break into what I can and can't do in a way I perceive will affect my health.

And when I say health, I mean me becoming the T in LGBTQ+ as part of both happiness and my pursuit of happiness. Nor do I take it much better when the G is treated in such a way, either.

I'm as straight as they come, but learned a long time ago we're a collection of genders and gender preferences, not 2 genders. In my faith, we see souls with physical bodies and personalities, not the other way around. How could God's emanation be anything that is against Himself? All variations are His doing.

Where would we be without challenges, small and large? It's what motivates learning. The archaic dogmatic mind-set is slowly changing I think. Those mindsets will soon be nothing by little ripples in the dunes of time as we move into more enlightened times, out of the dark ages of hate.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Promoting gayness? Dear lord, is that ignorance. I've been exposed to openly gay couples quite often, and never once did I feel like becoming gay myself. Why not? Because being gay is not a choice. I'm not tempted to be other than who I was born as sexually. It's the same thing with gays. They aren't tempted by hetrosexuality being "promoted" by straight couples in the exact same ways I'm not tempted by gay people being themselves either, which you call "promoting" it.

I have to say, realistically speaking, those who are worried about gayness like this are themselves probably bi-sexual, having both hetrosexual and homosexual attractions. But considering how taboo homosexuality is, they try to repress and fight against that tendency in themselves, calling gay a "lifestyle choice". Being gay is not a choice for me, but it is for bisexuals. When I hear the claim it is a choice, I hear them saying it a choice for themselves to do or not to do what they feel tempted to. I feel no temptation at all, because I'm solidy hetrosexual, not by choice, but by nature.

Being a Baha'i however is a lifestyle choice, and if it means you can't be true to yourself, then I'd say it's best not to promote it to others who are bi-sexual and struggle with all this religious conservative dogma that being gay is a sin. There is help for those recovering from religion, which is a choice.


Hence why those who are gay, will not find loving acceptance by them, unless it's some horrid idea of "curing them". How tragic, and primitive. I've known gays who were put through these insane "cure the gay" programs. They needed therapy to recover from the trauma it inflicted upon them. God is far more loving than religious conservatives seem to care to realize.

I have a bisexual friend who was very comfortable with me, and herself. (It was funny, as she was afraid to come out to me, cause she didn't know much about Hinduism other than that I was one, and thought maybe I'd be a homophobe. Her kid was in my class, and she had some concerns that hatred might subtly carry over. I gave her a big hug, and all was well.)

She had just switched from a male to a female companion, a life struggle of sorts. But I asked her about being bi, and she summed it up really nicely. She said, "With me, it's all about the person, not the sex." I think it's great advice for all of us ...all about the person, not the _________.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I would ask what science agrees with and Faith?
It looks like there is a word or two missing in what you were trying to say. But to clarify my point I'd say that if scientific studies show something that goes against what Baha'u'llah has said, then wouldn't Baha'is all agree that Baha'u'llah is correct and those scientists are wrong? So if scientific studies say things about gays and transgender that disagrees with Baha'u'llah, then I would suppose you'd say they were wrong and that the Baha'i Faith is not being superstitious. They, instead, are following "God's" word. A word that was given by a person coming from an Islamic background more than 150 years ago that claimed God told him so?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Unfortunately Bahai DOES try to subject and influence folks about gender identity and sexual orientation.

It also subjects Bahai folks to entering marriages without any idea of their new spouse's (or their own) sexuality. Hence those nasty Bahai divorces.

You are free to impart your own thoughts, no matter the intent, be they correct or not correct.

Everyone that chooses to be a Baha'i, would also have to read and understand that there are laws we need to live by. Some Laws are not easy and will challenge many people, it is for them to decide.

Your comment in my 35 years as a Baha'i does not reflect how it is seen as a Baha'i, or how a person that chooses to be a Baha'i would see it to be so.

Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Reincarnation is understood in different ways. We believe in the return of the qualities not the essence.
Is that what you think Hinduism teaches? Or, do you think they teach that a soul returns many times into different physical bodies? Which to Baha'is is a false doctrine. So where do you think this doctrine came from? Do you really think it was a "tradition" of man and added into Hindu beliefs?

Still got a problem. Who is Vishnu to the Baha'is? What is an Avatar?
Oh, and to get back to the main subject... How are those gay Baha'is doing? Have they been accepted as is into the Baha'i family?
 
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