Baha'i and Science

[TransmutingSoul]

It looks like there is a word or two missing in what you were trying to say. But to clarify my point I'd say that if scientific studies show something that goes against what Baha'u'llah has said, then wouldn't Baha'is all agree that Baha'u'llah is correct and those scientists are wrong? So if scientific studies say things about gays and transgender that disagrees with Baha'u'llah, then I would suppose you'd say they were wrong and that the Baha'i Faith is not being superstitious. They, instead, are following "God's" word. A word that was given by a person coming from an Islamic background more than 150 years ago that claimed God told him so?

I see Baha'u'llah did not write any 'science' on what it is to be "Gay", or science on whatever any person wishes to place on gender identities that have come to the mind of the world. I see Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi spoke upon the subject applicable to the mind that was in the world at that time.

Baha'u'llah gave a law that any lawful marriage is between a man and a women and sex outside that union is not permitted. That Law cannot be changed.

Thus the challenge is given to us to implement, if one is not a Baha'i, then they are free to not even consider that challenge.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I would ask what science agrees with Faith?

It looks like there is a word or two missing in what you were trying to say.

There was one word too many

The question was for you to consider. Put it in another way

Where in the writings of a Faith does it say a Scientific statement is being made? and

Where in Science does it say a Faith statement is being made?

Thus in determining these matters, it is up to us to balance between Science and Faith.

A law in a Faith is not a Scientific statement, it is a law. If a statement is made, that science sees as wrong, then there are two possible outcomes. One the statement was a spiritual thought based in the mind of man at the time it was made, or that is has a reality in science and will be proven or not proven to be so.

In all cases it is up to us to decide upon, and if one does not accept a Faith, they do not even have to try to balance what is being said. The other option they could take is to spend time to refute what was said.

Regards Tony

 

[Debater Slayer]

You’re entitled to view it that way and go your own way as we go ours.

... except when a Baha'i preaches to the rest of us, I suppose.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Its views on LGBTQ+ are as backwards as they can get. It also oftentimes seeks to exclude homosexuality from within Baha'i, creating prejudice against LGBTQ+ which is further backed by Shoghi and demonstrating itself as a faith against LGBTQ+, even if people want to subscribe to the faith who are.

Now the only debate, is whether ignoring mental health and psychology, is ignoring a facet of science.

I believe that the real issue is not backwardness or prejudice or exclusion but whether or not we can accept that God and His Prophets know us better than we do ourselves.

No man, however acute his perception, can ever hope to reach the heights which the wisdom and understanding of the Divine Physician have attained. - Baha’u’llah

And again.

The Prophets of God should be regarded as physicians whose task is to foster the well-being of the world and its peoples, that, through the spirit of oneness, they may heal the sickness of a divided humanity. To none is given the right to question their words or disparage their conduct, for they are the only ones who can claim to have understood the patient and to have correctly diagnosed its ailments. - Baha’u’llah

 

[wandering peacefully]

Should anyone be afflicted by a sin, it behoveth him to repent thereof and return unto his Lord

Uhhhg. Okay, now I'm done. Good luck raising that thought to anything, anyone would find worth looking into by applying 'independent investigation'. Seriously, it is a dead end for this day and age.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I see Baha'u'llah did not write any 'science' on what it is to be "Gay", or science on whatever any person wishes to place on gender identities that have come to the mind of the world. I see Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi spoke upon the subject applicable to the mind that was in the world at that time.

Baha'u'llah gave a law that any lawful marriage is between a man and a women and sex outside that union is not permitted. That Law cannot be changed.

Thus the challenge is given to us to implement, if one is not a Baha'i, then they are free to not even consider that challenge.

Regards Tony

Hi Tony. I see it this way. If people don’t accept Baha’u’llah then there’s no problem they go their own way and if they do accept Him there’s also no problem as they agree with His laws and want to live up to them. So it’s all freedom of choice here.

 

[loverofhumanity]

... except when a Baha'i preaches to the rest of us, I suppose.

We all share our views. Just because we are Baha’is shouldn’t mean that everytime we put pen to paper we are judged as preaching.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Is that what you think Hinduism teaches? Or, do you think they teach that a soul returns many times into different physical bodies? Which to Baha'is is a false doctrine. So where do you think this doctrine came from? Do you really think it was a "tradition" of man and added into Hindu beliefs?

Still got a problem. Who is Vishnu to the Baha'is? What is an Avatar?
Oh, and to get back to the main subject... How are those gay Baha'is doing? Have they been accepted as is into the Baha'i family?

There are many beliefs of which the origin is not known. I have no idea where the concept of reincarnation originated. We believe in the return of the qualities not the essence.

Vishnu is a Hindu God and an Avatar is a Manifestation of God.

avatar
/ˈavətɑː/

1. HINDUISM
   a manifestation of a deity or released soul in bodily form on earth; an incarnate divine teacher.

 

[wandering peacefully]

in my 35 years as a Baha'i does not reflect how it is seen as a Baha'i, or how a person that chooses to be a Baha'i would see it to be so.

And that is the crux of the problem. Baha'i only see from a Baha'I perspective. 'Thus' you all will never be able to accept all people just as they are and just as they believe because you wrongly believe you have the ultimate truth on all matters spiritual or otherwise. You do not. Try to focus on leaving that divisive trait behind and your faith may become something useful to more than a veritable handful.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And that is the crux of the problem. Baha'i only see from a Baha'I perspective. 'Thus' you all will never be able to accept all people just as they are and just as they believe because you wrongly believe you have the ultimate truth on all matters spiritual or otherwise. You do not. Try to focus on leaving that divisive trait behind and your faith may become something useful to more than a veritable handful.

Who's problem? That is the way you choose to see it and then offer a view how I should see it. As such, it was just mirroring the stated accusation back upon one's own self.

That is not the way I see it. I see that we do accept all people as they choose to be, there is no compulsion for anyone to change. If a person chooses to be a Baha'i, they will want to be what Baha'u'llah asked them to be and that will become their choice in life.

Stay well, stay happy, Regards Tony

 

[loverofhumanity]

And that is the crux of the problem. Baha'i only see from a Baha'I perspective. 'Thus' you all will never be able to accept all people just as they are and just as they believe because you wrongly believe you have the ultimate truth on all matters spiritual or otherwise. You do not. Try to focus on leaving that divisive trait behind and your faith may become something useful to more than a veritable handful.

The divisiveness has long been in humanity. Hatreds, rivalries and wars have dominated humanity long before we arrived. Baha’is are people who have come together from different religious, cultural, national and religious backgrounds and are a world community comprised of a cross section of the human race dedicated to the oneness of humankind.

The Baha’i teachings are for all humanity but the Baha’i laws are only for those who are Baha’is and accept these laws. The teachings of Baha’u’llah are inclusive of all humanity but His laws are only binding on His followers not humanity.

 

[Trailblazer]

Reading through this thread, I find it rather sad that anyone makes such a big deal about sex. According to my beliefs, the purpose of our existence is not to have sex, it is to know and worship God. This is not just a Baha'i belief, it is a belief of all the Abrahamic religions; I cannot speak for the other religions such as Buddhism or Hinduism.

If other people do not LIKE these religious beliefs or laws they do not have to believe them or adhere to them. That is why we all have free will.

Sex is a thing that is of men, it is not of God. If people cannot surrender their selfish desires for God, maybe God is not that important to them. This has nothing to do with sexual preference.

Matthew 16:23-26 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

“By self-surrender and perpetual union with God is meant that men should merge their will wholly in the Will of God, and regard their desires as utter nothingness beside His Purpose. Whatsoever the Creator commandeth His creatures to observe, the same must they diligently, and with the utmost joy and eagerness, arise and fulfil. They should in no wise allow their fancy to obscure their judgment, neither should they regard their own imaginings as the voice of the Eternal..... In this consisteth the complete surrender of one’s will to the Will of God.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 337-338

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Reading through this thread, I find it rather sad that anyone makes such a big deal about sex.

Ignoring that you called orientation and gender identity "sex", making it sound like there was a strong focus on having sex in this thread... well, I have my reasons.

If other people do not LIKE these religious beliefs or laws they do not have to believe them or adhere to them. That is why we all have free will.

Free will exists to an extent, but only in a utopia where we don't have religions saying what you can and can't be and excluding some people who want to follow the faith, saying unless they follow a list of rules that don't have anything to do with the Golden Rule, they shouldn't really be there.

Sex is a thing that is of men, it is not of God. If people cannot surrender their selfish desires for God, maybe God is not that important to them. This has nothing to do with sexual preference.

God created sex.

 

[osgart]

I'm all for reducing sexuality to its proper places. However I firmly believe that LGT's are born with their natures and it's a big part of who they are regardless of their sexual practices. I am quite sure there is no genetic switch to turn it on or off.

We should all be masters of our own bodies and live as we truly are provided that who we are harms none. If I were God I'd make it so. It escapes me why God would make us to be born of sexuality though.

 

[Earthtank]

So let's weigh that with the Baha'i faith - is the Baha'i faith properly aligned with science, including on LGBTQ+?

I ask this with all due respect but, why does any religion have to be "properly aligned with science, including on LGBTQ+"? Science and the LGTBQ+ community are constantly expanding and changing over time. The "T" in the LGBTQ itself opposes sciences so, any logical religion or philosophy cannot be aligned with science and the LGBT since the LGBT itself opposes science. Also, look at the history of science and its limitations, its not meant to be taken as a religion, theories and law in science are changing over time therefore, for a religion to be true it cannot be changing overtime.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

The "T" in the LGBTQ itself opposes sciences so, any logical religion or philosophy cannot be aligned with science and the LGBT since the LGBT itself opposes science.

Proof?

for a religion to be true it cannot be changing overtime

Proof?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Baha’is accept the laws of Baha’u’llah because they believe they are from God.

Others are free to disbelieve in Him and not follow anything He says.

We go our way and let others go theirs. We choose our path and respect that others may choose a different path. Each has his own right to choose his own path without interference from others who choose differently.

Those that believe in homosexuality then walk that path and we don’t object but we just choose a different path so let’s each go our own way and respect that we each have the right to believe differently.

So by all means please keep believing what you believe in as we will keep believing in what we will.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Baha’is accept the laws of Baha’u’llah because they believe they are from God.

Others are free to disbelieve in Him and not follow anything He says.

We go our way and let others go theirs. We choose our path and respect that others may choose a different path. Each has his own right to choose his own path without interference from others who choose differently.

Those that believe in homosexuality then walk that path and we don’t object but we just choose a different path so let’s each go our own way and respect that we each have the right to believe differently.

So by all means please keep believing what you believe in as we will keep believing in what we will.

Sounds good.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ignoring that you called orientation and gender identity "sex", making it sound like there was a strong focus on having sex in this thread... well, I have my reasons.

Free will exists to an extent, but only in a utopia where we don't have religions saying what you can and can't be and excluding some people who want to follow the faith, saying unless they follow a list of rules that don't have anything to do with the Golden Rule, they shouldn't really be there.

Religion is about more than just the Golden Rule. "Some" religions have laws and we believe those laws were revealed by God for our benefit and protection.

Homosexuals are not excluded from the Baha'i Faith. The law prohibiting sex outside of marriage applies equally to heterosexuals and homosexuals. This is about "having sex" because there is no prohibition against "being homosexual." Baha'i laws only apply to "having sex."

God created sex.

God created sex for procreation, not recreation. Sadly, what God created has been terribly abused.
The Baha'i Faith does not prohibit having sex for any reason within its proper context which is marriage.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Sounds good.

Whatever path you choose you are a precious human being. We don’t believe we are ‘chosen ‘ or ‘saved’ or better than other people but even that you might be a better person than any of us even though you say you are not a Baha’i.

The man who lives the life according to the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh is already a Bahá’í. On the other hand, a man may call himself a Bahá’í for fifty years, and if he does not live the life he is not a Bahá’í. An ugly man may call himself handsome, but he deceives no one, and a black man may call himself white, yet he deceives no one, not even himself.
(Abdu’l-Baha)