Baha'i and Science

[oldbadger]

You are free to impart your own thoughts, no matter the intent, be they correct or not correct.

Nope! My post was correct!

Everyone that chooses to be a Baha'i, would also have to read and understand that there are laws we need to live by. Some Laws are not easy and will challenge many people, it is for them to decide.

So you do submit yourselves to some really bad tenets, in which case you might think before criticising how many others in the world hold other tenets which promote more freedom.

Your comment in my 35 years as a Baha'i does not reflect how it is seen as a Baha'i, or how a person that chooses to be a Baha'i would see it to be so.

Regards Tony

So that's why Bahais hold self-righteous judgements up against those who promote freedom of sexuality, sexual identity, sexual partnerships, whilst subjecting themselves and other Bahais to some really wrongful bigotries?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Nope! My post was correct!


So you do submit yourselves to some really bad tenets, in which case you might think before criticising how many others in the world hold other tenets which promote more freedom.


So that's why Bahais hold self-righteous judgements up against those who promote freedom of sexuality, sexual identity, sexual partnerships, whilst subjecting themselves and other Bahais to some really wrongful bigotries?

Our laws regarding these things only apply to ourselves not the wider community nor do we oppose those who believe in such things nor do we protest against them nor do we have any interest in anything but letting them go their own way hoping that they will allow us to go ours.

People are free to walk their own path just as I am and I don’t see anything wrong with each going their own way.

For those who reject Baha’u’llah they are not bound by any law and are free to do as they please.

Excerpt From the Quran...


I worship not that which ye worship;
Nor worship ye that which I worship.
And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion

Sura 109

 

[wandering peacefully]

Who's problem? That is the way you choose to see it and then offer a view how I should see it.

I think you should see it just however you want to. But don't dishonesty keep espousing how you are all inclusive and want unity of mankind. It just isn't true.

 

[wandering peacefully]

The divisiveness has long been in humanity. Hatreds, rivalries and wars have dominated humanity long before we arrived.

So why continue on with the same proven divisive method by following the words of a bigot? Ignorance in his day was excusable because that's how humanity was. Hopefully we have moved on from those darker days of ignorance. But because you cannot force yourself to think differently, you are forever stuck in those days. No problem, I really don't care what anyone else believes. I'm only pointing out the major call of your religion is to unite mankind. It's never going to happen with the current superior attitude .

 

[loverofhumanity]

And that is the crux of the problem. Baha'i only see from a Baha'I perspective. 'Thus' you all will never be able to accept all people just as they are and just as they believe because you wrongly believe you have the ultimate truth on all matters spiritual or otherwise. You do not. Try to focus on leaving that divisive trait behind and your faith may become something useful to more than a veritable handful.

In which way do you think we don’t accept people as they are? Please be more clear because our Faith does not condemn anyone or any group so what are you saying?

 

[Earthtank]

Proof?



Proof?

Based off your response it seems you do not understand science, religion and the T (transgender).

 

[oldbadger]

Our laws regarding these things only apply to ourselves not the wider community nor do we oppose those who believe in such things nor do we protest against them nor do we have any interest in anything but letting them go their own way hoping that they will allow us to go ours.

People are free to walk their own path just as I am and I don’t see anything wrong with each going their own way.

For those who reject Baha’u’llah they are not bound by any law and are free to do as they please.

Excerpt From the Quran...


I worship not that which ye worship;
Nor worship ye that which I worship.
And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion

Sura 109

Hi, lover....
Nope.
Baha'i seeks for a Baha'i World, with Baha'i theocratic government where outsiders do not have a say or a vote.
In such a World Baha'i prejudice would prevail.

At this time Baha'i has not power, so all is well, but It's not a bad thing for the World to know about Baha'i prejudices, is all.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Hi, lover....
Nope.
Baha'i seeks for a Baha'i World, with Baha'i theocratic government where outsiders do not have a say or a vote.
In such a World Baha'i prejudice would prevail.

At this time Baha'i has not power, so all is well, but It's not a bad thing for the World to know about Baha'i prejudices, is all.

I believe you are projecting humanity’s past failures of things like the papacy and caliphate as these are the only examples we have to compare with.

However, neither the papacy nor the caliphate were designed from the ground up by a Manifestation of God and endowed with conferred infallibility. Thus being man made they obviously dismally failed and so humanity is weary understandably of another such reoccurrence.

But Baha’u’llah has said that this is ‘the day that shall not be followed by night’ so as the Baha’i Faith’s influence spreads corruption and prejudices will be eliminated and disappear because the Baha’i System is Divinely ordained, the kingdom of God on earth.

Being thus it will have the opposite effects of man made institutions and corruption and prejudice will be a thing of the past to be replaced by justice and equality.

 

[CG Didymus]

I did not go back through all posts, but dear friend, Krishna was the Light of God that Shined upon this earth. Krishna is thus the source of all our Faith.

Krishna founded a major Faith and we do not need to apologise for that belief.

We now know what Krishna founded did not maintain an exclusive name, that it became part of what is known as Hinduism, which has a great diversity of founding sources and thoughts and that is very good to know.

Regards Tony

So you believe Krishna was a real historical person and not mythical? How about the stories about him? Are those stories accurate or myth and legend? I doubt you believe them real, because Baha'is don't even believe the stories about Jesus being real. You accept the "name" and the teachings you agree with from those other religions. The rest you do away with by calling it "not literal", "symbolic" and "traditions" added into the story by man. But, you say, the "original" teachings of those people, before they got messed up, all agree? There is no "original" teachings. All we have is the Scriptures of the different religions, and some things are similar, some things might even agree, but there is also a lot of differences. And what's wrong with that? Nothing, except for the Baha'is. You need to show a consistent and progressive message to make your beliefs work.

 

[CG Didymus]

Why would you want us to stop practising and promoting what we beleive, are they not worthy goals?

Hmmm? Promote this belief that being gay is not normal?

Our writings say it is not normal or natural and we should try and overcome it even with medical assistance.

This is what a Baha'is with homosexual tendencies should do... seek medical help.

Baha'u'llah gave a law that any lawful marriage is between a man and a women and sex outside that union is not permitted. That Law cannot be changed.
Thus the challenge is given to us to implement, if one is not a Baha'i, then they are free to not even consider that challenge.

Yes and how successful has Christianity been in forcing, I mean promoting their morality on others? But Baha'is intend to leave the non-Baha'i world alone? So we'll have strip clubs, gay bars, on-line porn and all the other things going on? And within the Baha'i Faith, there will be no adulterous affairs, no gays and no sex before marriage?

Thus in determining these matters, it is up to us to balance between Science and Faith.

Since it is a law of the Baha'i Faith that being gay is not normal, then no matter what science says, the law stands and cannot be changed.

I believe that the real issue is not backwardness or prejudice or exclusion but whether or not we can accept that God and His Prophets know us better than we do ourselves.

That's what religions say, "Our laws are from God, therefore they are right". So what does that do? It makes people that disagree atheists.

Hi Tony. I see it this way. If people don’t accept Baha’u’llah then there’s no problem they go their own way and if they do accept Him there’s also no problem as they agree with His laws and want to live up to them. So it’s all freedom of choice here.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There are probably child molesters, adulterers, fornicators, bisexuals, swingers, gays, lesbians, transgenders, and probably a lot of on-line porn viewers within the Baha'i Faith. All religious "laws" forbidding these things does is put those people doing them behind closed doors. Which makes them hypocrites. There is a problem. They are among you. Like Tony said, the Baha'i Faith has a lot of "worthy" goals. People with their vices are still going to join.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm only pointing out the major call of your religion is to unite mankind. It's never going to happen with the current superior attitude .

How does the fact that the Baha'i Faith has laws that only apply to Baha'is equate to a superior attitude?
We do not look down upon other people who choose to believe or disbelieve differently and live differently.

Why aren't Baha'is allowed to live the way we want to live, because it makes other people uncomfortable? I cannot imagine any other reason why people would oppose our laws, since we do not inflict them upon anyone else or expect anyone else to follow them, nor do we judge people who live differently.

 

[Vinayaka]

Hi, lover....
Nope.
Baha'i seeks for a Baha'i World, with Baha'i theocratic government where outsiders do not have a say or a vote.
In such a World Baha'i prejudice would prevail.

At this time Baha'i has not power, so all is well, but It's not a bad thing for the World to know about Baha'i prejudices, is all.

You get the argument that the Baha'i stuff is just for the Baha'i and not applicable to the rest of us. If that were truly the case, the leaders would certainly change the name of their men-only body from Universal House of Justice, to Baha'i House of Justice. I'm not expecting that to happen. 9 old guys rule over the entire universe? Good to hear your sensible stuff weighing in.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hmmm? Promote this belief that being gay is not normal?

When has that ever been said?

What RF has shown me is that many will project their thoughts into their replies, but then try to attribute it to what Baha'u'llah offered.

Today is the Day of the Covenant for the Baha'i, a most important hoky day.

You can now choose to see the wisdom of the covenant. Imagine if every Baha'i could butcher the Writings with their own thoughts and then persist they were the correct ones. The Baha'i Faith in this age would have already been 1000's of Faiths claiming to be the path.

The Covenant is a most great proof for the Divinity of Baha'u'llah.

Thus my thought to your observation is that it could very well be a tenancy and natural for the animal in us to want to direct its identity and sexual desires in a specific direction, but we are more than that and that more calls for restraint in and submission to a knowledge and wisdom greater than ours.

CG, we have spent a long time explaining that all these thoughts are up to each individual and many here still post their thoughts as to what Baha'u'llah has offered but have never really tried to look at and consider what that was. They return day after day with that same worn out accusation that does not represent a just reality.

The Baha'i community is a sum of imperfect peoole, trying to implement what is a perfect faultless system, as such it is not yet perfect, but it can be, as we become better people.

Much can be offered, but most posts just leed me to offer less.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There are probably child molesters, adulterers, fornicators, bisexuals, swingers, gays, lesbians, transgenders, and probably a lot of on-line porn viewers within the Baha'i Faith. All religious "laws" forbidding these things does is put those people doing them behind closed doors. Which makes them hypocrites. There is a problem. They are among you. Like Tony said, the Baha'i Faith has a lot of "worthy" goals. People with their vices are still going to join.

People can and do change, all should be given that chance.

That may also help you to see that Justice requires penalties for actions that are unlawful and at the same time the desire for forgiveness and compassion rules our mind in administering any justice.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

You get the argument that the Baha'i stuff is just for the Baha'i and not applicable to the rest of us. If that were truly the case, the leaders would certainly change the name of their men-only body from Universal House of Justice, to Baha'i House of Justice. I'm not expecting that to happen. 9 old guys rule over the entire universe? Good to hear your sensible stuff weighing in.

If the Baha'i Faith isn't going to "inflict" or "impose" its beliefs on the world, beliefs they say are needed to bring peace and unity, then how will they bring peace to the world. Baha'is will have one set of laws and their own justice system. And the rest of the world will have theirs? So liquor stores, pot stores, adult entertainment clubs, gay bars, swinger bars, abortion clinics, gambling casinos will continue to thrive along side Churches, Mosques, Baha'i Temples, and Synagogues?

But, if Baha'is do get a majority. If Baha'is get elected by that majority into government, they still would promote Baha'i ideals onto the masses? Like close down liquor stores and strip clubs and casinos and the rest of those "evil" things? But then what? Would they allow religious cults to go on deceiving people and getting their followers to do radical things? Then where will they draw the line to what is a cult and what is a good, deceit, religion? Like is the far-right, conservative, gun-loving fundamentalist Christian a danger to a peaceful society?

But, no need to worry. I believe they will just keep to themselves and let the rest of society do whatever it wants.

 

[Trailblazer]

Since it is a law of the Baha'i Faith that being gay is not normal, then no matter what science says, the law stands and cannot be changed.

Science does not say that people are born gay and gays do not say that either. Most gays say it is a lifestyle choice that they make.

That's what religions say, "Our laws are from God, therefore they are right". So what does that do? It makes people that disagree atheists.

IF they are from God THEN they are right because God cannot be wrong. That is logic 101 stuff. But people do not have to believe they are from God if they don't want to believe that. We all have free will. People will always disagree, it is HOW they disagree that matters. Why is it so necessary for people to put the Baha'is down? Do you see us putting anyone down? Don't people have anything better to do than rank on the Baha'i Faith? The question they need to ask themselves is why the Baha'i Faith bothers them so much, as we are not bothering them.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There are probably child molesters, adulterers, fornicators, bisexuals, swingers, gays, lesbians, transgenders, and probably a lot of on-line porn viewers within the Baha'i Faith. All religious "laws" forbidding these things does is put those people doing them behind closed doors. Which makes them hypocrites.

Nobody knows what Baha'is are doing behind closed doors but it does not matter because what the Baha'is do is not what Baha'u'llah wrote that we should be doing. What Baha'is do is not a reflection on the truth of the Baha'i Faith, it is a reflection on fallible humans who do not follow the teachings and laws of the Baha'i Faith.

“I sorrow not for the burden of My imprisonment. Neither do I grieve over My abasement, or the tribulation I suffer at the hands of Mine enemies. By My life! They are My glory, a glory wherewith God hath adorned His own Self. Would that ye know it!

The shame I was made to bear hath uncovered the glory with which the whole of creation had been invested, and through the cruelties I have endured, the Day Star of Justice hath manifested itself, and shed its splendor upon men.

My sorrows are for those who have involved themselves in their corrupt passions, and claim to be associated with the Faith of God, the Gracious, the All-Praised.

It behoveth the people of Bahá to die to the world and all that is therein, to be so detached from all earthly things that the inmates of Paradise may inhale from their garment the sweet smelling savor of sanctity, that all the peoples of the earth may recognize in their faces the brightness of the All-Merciful, and that through them may be spread abroad the signs and tokens of God, the Almighty, the All-Wise. They that have tarnished the fair name of the Cause of God, by following the things of the flesh—these are in palpable error!”Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 100-101

“My captivity can bring on Me no shame. Nay, by My life, it conferreth on Me glory. That which can make Me ashamed is the conduct of such of My followers as profess to love Me, yet in fact follow the Evil One. They, indeed, are of the lost.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 117-118

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So you believe Krishna was a real historical person and not mythical? How about the stories about him? Are those stories accurate or myth and legend? I doubt you believe them real, because Baha'is don't even believe the stories about Jesus being real. You accept the "name" and the teachings you agree with from those other religions. The rest you do away with by calling it "not literal", "symbolic" and "traditions" added into the story by man. But, you say, the "original" teachings of those people, before they got messed up, all agree? There is no "original" teachings. All we have is the Scriptures of the different religions, and some things are similar, some things might even agree, but there is also a lot of differences. And what's wrong with that? Nothing, except for the Baha'is. You need to show a consistent and progressive message to make your beliefs work.

The simple answer is Krishna has been confirmed in the Baha'i Writings and thus Krishna is also part of Baha'u'llah, they are One and the same light. Jesus Christ showed us in the passages 'The First and Last' , the' Beginning and End' the 'Alpha and Omega'. As a Baha'i we take this advice from Baha'u'llah;

"No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers.” For they, one and all, summon the people of the earth to acknowledge the unity of God, and herald unto them the Kawthar of an infinite grace and bounty. They are all invested with the robe of prophethood, and are honored with the mantle of glory.... " Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 50-56

We participates in a 17000 post thread where all that was explained.

RegardsTony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You get the argument that the Baha'i stuff is just for the Baha'i and not applicable to the rest of us. If that were truly the case, the leaders would certainly change the name of their men-only body from Universal House of Justice, to Baha'i House of Justice. I'm not expecting that to happen. 9 old guys rule over the entire universe? Good to hear your sensible stuff weighing in.

That can never happen until we conquer our own self. Muhammads greatest gift from God, was in the Quran given as submission unto God.

So logic tells us that if people choose not to be Baha'i, then they will not be part of that system. The Administrative order is to manage the affairs of the Baha'i Faith and part of that is to be loyal to just governments and the laws of the lands.

Regards Tony

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Why is it so necessary for people to put the Baha'is down? Do you see us putting anyone down?

I do at times. Someone seemed to make the insinuation in this thread that gays have wild sex parties.

Then it's kind of toxic to see Baha'is at times borderline preaching and using terms like "universal beliefs" and "freeing the world of prejudice" and other buzzwords while, when people point out their faith doesn't live up to these statements, them not looking at the facts or apologizing. Just continuing to say the same thing over and over and over and over and over again on online forums.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I mean, what is there to defend? Your Baha'i faith has a cool manifestation of God with a lot of cool writings, incredible theology. But because Bahallulah vaguely didn't support homosexuality and Shoghi put the final nail in the coffin, it not only creates hurt feelings, but the Baha'is here further rub salt in the wounds by agreeing 100%. And people are going to point out the irony that one cannot claim that Baha'i frees people of prejudice, and it's clear... yet its followers seems to think it can.