1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Baha'i and Science

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by KAT-KAT, Nov 22, 2019.

  1. KAT-KAT

    KAT-KAT Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2019
    Messages:
    5,080
    Ratings:
    +3,298
    Religion:
    Reading about Hinduism
    `Abdu'l-Bahá stated that "when a religion is opposed to science it becomes mere superstition"

    So let's weigh that with the Baha'i faith - is the Baha'i faith properly aligned with science, including on LGBTQ+? Is it fully up to date?
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
  2. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2011
    Messages:
    2,341
    Ratings:
    +1,584
    Religion:
    Baha'i inspired liberal
    No it’s not.

    It’s one of the things which demonstrates that one-ness of religion and science is pure slogan with no basis in Baha’i practice whatsoever.

    It’s one of the reasons i’m affiliated with liberalism and not with a religion
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Winner Winner x 3
  3. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    8,184
    Ratings:
    +3,312
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    It could be emotions guide this subject more than science, at this particular time in the progress of humanity. Which will in turn be confirmed by science as the years unfold. So lets see what the future unfolds on these issues. Science is already suggesting that over liberalization is distorting a child's perceptions of gender identity. I see a child should be able to flourish in Love without being steered or directed in any way by a world that has become obsessed with sexual identities and exploits.

    Regards Tony
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  4. KAT-KAT

    KAT-KAT Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2019
    Messages:
    5,080
    Ratings:
    +3,298
    Religion:
    Reading about Hinduism
    I did want to add that I love the ideas, theology, of the Baha'i faith, since I found it.

    Any criticisms I have are of the constructive criticism sort.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 4
    • Like Like x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  5. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    8,412
    Ratings:
    +6,443
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    The Baha’i Faith has some laws and teachings that are quite conservative. That’s particularly true when it comes to sexual intimacy between two people of the same gender. That can be a major challenge for someone who identifies as being gay. To what extent science proves or disproves the legitimacy or otherwise of a sexual act is another question. Are Baha’is up to date with the latest research? Its something I’ve been thinking about recently. I’m happy to have the discussion.

    Gender identity and being transgender is another issue and one where the Baha’i writings have little to say. So it becomes a private matter between the individual and doctors for someone looking to transition.

    Anyway this is a great question for a discussion or debate about religion.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  6. KAT-KAT

    KAT-KAT Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2019
    Messages:
    5,080
    Ratings:
    +3,298
    Religion:
    Reading about Hinduism
    From the articles I've been reading, and they may be wrong... the Baha'i community kind of still has a knee-jerk reaction to homosexuality somewhat.

    However, when people have asked Baha'is what they think of the transgender, it is often said it is not their business.

    So suppose a person is gay and can't seem to change it, but also considers themselves a bit religious. But if they're transgender and on hormones, possible surgery too, well they're to some extent no longer gay.

    In such a case... is religious purity found in becoming transgender?
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
    • Creative Creative x 1
  7. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    8,184
    Ratings:
    +3,312
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    I see that in the end it comes down to each individual and how they choose to see what life is all about and as to where the best advice about life comes from.

    Regards Tony
     
    • Like Like x 3
  8. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    8,412
    Ratings:
    +6,443
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    It will vary between Baha’is. We’re a diverse group and some of us are more comfortable with sexuality and transgenderism than others.

    What is our business is to love people and take people as they are. So when a Baha’i says its not their business maybe they mean they don’t have an opinion about it one way or another.

    That could be true. I don’t know as its not my test in life. That’s what you need to work out.

    I believe our relationship with God is at the core of our spiritual and religious life and everything follows from that. If we turn to God sincerely and make a concerted effort to do the right thing we will be guided and find the strength to follow the path. Sometimes we need to test the waters if you know what I mean. Its up to each of us to read the reality of our own lives and find out what works for us and what doesn’t.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  9. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    28,945
    Ratings:
    +13,067
    Religion:
    Saivite Hindu
    Certainly doesn't end there ... transmutation of copper to gold if you let it sit 'somewhere magical', and life on every other planet, are rather against modern science. I suspect there are many more, but nobody's bothered to read everything looking for just stuff that contradicts science.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  10. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    6,900
    Ratings:
    +3,036
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    Yes it most definitely is. And is way ahead of current thinkers on many topics.

    Science does not know everything there is to know. It is evolving, discovering and discarding previous held notions as it comes to understand new realities.

    God is All Knowing, Infallible and has Perfect Knowledge of everything unlike science.

    Sometimes when God speaks through His Prophets or Manifestations He may reveal a principle or truth which we have not yet grasped fully so we may object to it and oppose it.

    The true touchstone of all knowledge scientific, moral or otherwise i believe is the Word of God not the hypothesis, conjectures and theories of men no matter how sound they may seem. Man’s reason errs, God’s knowledge is perfect. Man makes mistakes of judgement God is never wrong.

    If God makes a statement on any topic moral or otherwise through His Representative I fully believe He is correct and right and it will be proven to be correct in time as we mature even though it may be currently opposed.

    Through Baha’u’llah, God has spoken on these kinds of matters ( homosexuality) mentioned by the OP so in time His Counsel will be proven to be correct and true even if now it is vehemently opposed. This is my firm conviction that where knowledge is concerned God trumps man’s finite mind always without any doubt.

    “While it may often be the part of wisdom to approach individuals or an audience from a standpoint of current knowledge, it should never be overlooked that the Revelation of the Manifestation of God is the standard for all knowledge, and scientific statements and theories, no matter how close they may come to the eternal principles proclaimed by God’s Messenger, are in their very nature ephemeral and limited.” (Universal House of Justice, Scholarship, p. 37)
     
    #10 loverofhumanity, Nov 22, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
    • Winner Winner x 1
  11. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    6,900
    Ratings:
    +3,036
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    Every person is a precious human being. Each person has tests and problems in life and it is them who have to struggle to overcome these things. It’s more a personal thing. No one is going to come knocking on your door about your personal life.

    But if you were having wild gay parties and or parties getting drunk and such then that’s not who we are and not acceptable. We accept people may have difficulty overcoming heterosexual or homosexual tendencies all their life and no one is going to interfere with any individual unless they start imposing these values on the community.

    There are Baha’is from the groups you mention in the Faith and they are loved and treasured but it is their personal life not for us to judge or interfere unless they tried to impose it on the wider Baha’i Community. We all struggle with different things. Some struggle with homosexuality, some heterosexuality, or gambling or bad language and drinking but the standard is what we aspire to not what we necessarily are. No Baha’i is perfect.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  12. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    8,184
    Ratings:
    +3,312
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    I always consider that my knowledge is very limited and God knows all. It is my ignorance that veils what is the truth.

    I offer that Baha'u'llah told us of a time when severe mental tests will be our gift to face, these tests aimed at our declaration of Faith. The question for us is, do we really beleive Baha'u'llah and the Message He gave from God, is the answer the world needs and are we willing to implement it with full enthusiasm. No one that is half hearted in a job, will or can do the job to the standard required.

    Thus I see 100% of what Baha'u'llah offered from God, will unfold and Science will confirm, it is just not at this specific time.

    I also see This world will change immensely in the future, a new source of power is on the horizon and with that discovery may also be the science that trumps the doubts some people may have about one or two very minor aspects of the Message given by Baha'u'llah. The world is ignorant of true science, it still lacks the spirit that is needed. (There are exceptions, but they are yet to be the majority)

    Regards Tony
     
  13. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    28,945
    Ratings:
    +13,067
    Religion:
    Saivite Hindu
    'It'll happen in the future' isn't science at all. It's diversion from reality to keep people happy. Predictions about science are just as often wrong as right. When Baha'i's predict that the world will be vegetarian some time in the future, it's just silly, as a whole lot of this world was vegetarian at least 2000 years before Baha'u'llah was born. Besides, with such a thing, why not now?
    That's like telling your fiance that you'll marry her some time in the future. Good luck with that.

    The fact of the matter is nobody can predict the future in any infallible way. Sure, we make educational guesses that sometimes come true.

    (I'm only re-entering this discussion momentarily because I see there are a couple of new 'watchers' present, and won't be continuing very long. People have the right to know both sides to this story.)
     
    #13 Vinayaka, Nov 22, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
    • Like Like x 2
    • Winner Winner x 1
  14. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    8,184
    Ratings:
    +3,312
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Yes people do have the right to search and decide about what is the truth.

    We do have history available to consider as well. That history proves that people with a vision of the future can be placed in many groups, from proven right to utter fiction.

    In the end, some of those with Visions are proven right and many are proven wrong.

    Thus we can consider if our own vision of the future falls into any category that we choose. I see God has given a vision to which I quote, you do not see it that way.

    It is a fact, that time will show what vision was based in a sound reality and what was not.

    Christ said back 2000 years ago that the Gospel would be preached all around the world, Jesus proved right, 100% of the others who ridiculed such a statement proved wrong.

    Regards Tony
     
  15. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    6,900
    Ratings:
    +3,036
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith

    I think such matters depend on ones view of God whether He is All Knowing because if one believes that He is then it’s true whether it has come to pass yet or not because to God the past, present and future are one and the same while for us our future has yet to unfold.

    But if one does not accept that there is an All Knowing God then of course they will reject any statement He may make through His Manifestations.

    Your position I understand is you don’t accept that God is capable of appointing Messengers to speak on His behalf or similar so your concept of God is that He is not All Knowing or similar otherwise it’s quite easy to accept that God knows the past,,present and future and that people who believe in God accept what He states without question because He is God.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    28,945
    Ratings:
    +13,067
    Religion:
    Saivite Hindu
    Of course my version of God is all knowing, all pervasive. He just doesn't need messengers. Please stop telling me what I believe in false ways. Where are you finding such nonsense? It's insulting.

    Carry on.
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Funny Funny x 1
  17. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    6,900
    Ratings:
    +3,036
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    Just pointing out that modern science I believe is way behind the knowledge of God and so it’s possible God may make a statement on something well before modern science has discovered it that’s all.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  18. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2012
    Messages:
    16,375
    Ratings:
    +1,830
    "He (G-d) just doesn't need messengers."

    I agree with one here. G-d does not need any Messengers/Prophets, it is His mercy that G-d sends His Messengers for us human beings guidance:
    1. But Bahaullah did not claim in unequivocal terms to be a Messenger/Prophet of G-d in Kitab-i-Iqan - one of the most famous and core book of Bahaullah. If yes then Bahaullah's followers to please quote from Kitab-i-Iqan in this connection, please.
    2. Moreover Bahaullah was never a Bahai. If he ever said so, then also Bahaullah's followers to please quote from Kitab-i-Iqan in this connection, please.
    3. Some Bahais believe that Bahaullah was god. If yes, then he could not claim and cannot be a truthful Messenger/Prophet , as both are distinct from one another.Right, please?
    4. etc, and etc
    Regards
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
  19. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2012
    Messages:
    28,737
    Ratings:
    +14,079
    Excuse you, but you have a ridiculous idea of homosexuality if that's what you think being gay means. It's not a "lifestyle". It simply means you're sexually/romantically primarily attracted to the same sex. It says nothing about whether you enjoy partying or drinking. What about the gay people who have been in committed monogamous relationships for decades?
     
    • Like Like x 3
  20. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    6,900
    Ratings:
    +3,036
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    Yes I understand perfectly what homosexuality is but as it is forbidden in our religion then so is it’s spread and promotion forbidden within our communities. Our writings say it is not normal or natural and we should try and overcome it even with medical assistance.

    The Baha’i Faith only recognises marriage between a man and a woman.
     
Loading...