• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Why did the world reject the Messiah when He Did come?

firedragon

Veteran Member
It is not required to do this. It is at times neccessary to consider either Solar or Luna calendar starting and finishing points.

Regards Tony

How did you calculate the number of days from 622 to 1844?

(Brother please be kind enough not to give vague answers. I have respect for you guys. So if you dont wish to respond thats fine and just say so. But please please dont give vague answers. Be specific. If not just say you are not responding and I will accept that. )
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
How did you calculate the number of days from 622 to 1844?

(Brother please be kind enough not to give vague answers. I have respect for you guys. So if you dont wish to respond thats fine and just say so. But please please dont give vague answers. Be specific. If not just say you are not responding and I will accept that. )

Sorry, I thought you may have looked up the detail, you seem to keep saying you had read quite a few references I had previously given, thus my intent was not to burden you with those details. More than happy to go into the details.

In the Islamic calendar the year AD1844 is the year AH1260. This does not need interpretation, it is a fact.

All the 1260 years prophecy shown as either; times, time and half a time, or 3 1/2 Years, or 42 month or 1260 days is all a reference to the dispensation of the Islamic Faith which was brought to a close by the Bab in AH1260, Ad1844. These are shown to be the same by converting the years and the months to days, using the 30 day month calculation and each day for a year biblical passages.

Thus times, time and half a time = 3 1/2 Years = 42 month x 30 = 1260 days = 1260 Years.

1844 is arrived at by using other prophecy, which is the Biblical edict to rebuild the temple of 457 and the 2300 year prophecy for the rebuilding of the sanctuary. This is what William Miller used. William Miller was not aware of the Date AH1260, had he been I am sure much more excitement would have resulted. Great Disappointment - Wikipedia This link shows some graphs that are helpful to visually see the prophecy.

Thus the Two Witnesses of Revelation that would give Prophecy for 1260 years are Muhammad and Ali. There is no greater proofs in the Bible for Muhammad, but at the same time it proves the Message of the Bab.

Regards Tony
 
Last edited:

firedragon

Veteran Member
Sorry, I thought you may have looked up the detail, you seem to keep saying you had read quite a few references I had previously given, thus my intent was not to burden you with those details. More than happy to go into the details.

In the Islamic calendar the year AD1844 is the year AH1260. This does not need interpretation, it is a fact.

All the 1260 years prophecy shown as either; times, time and half a time, or 3 1/3 days, or 42 month or 1260 days is all a referenced to the dispensation of the Islamic Faith which was brought to a close by the Bab in AH1260, Ad1844. These are shown to be the same by converting the years and the months to days, using the 30 day month calculation and each day for a year biblical passages.

1844 is arrived at by using other prophecy, which is the Biblical edict to rebuild the temple of 457 and the 2300 year prophecy for the rebuilding of the sanctuary. This is what William Miller used. William Miller was not aware of the Date AH1260, had he been I am sure much more excitement would have resulted. Great Disappointment - Wikipedia This link shows some graphs that are helpful to visually see the prophecy.

Thus the Two Witnesses of Revelation that would give Prophecy for 1260 years are Muhammad and Ali.

Regards Tony

Respond to these two simple questions directly and specifically.

1. If as you say the year is 360, how come you calculated based on 354?
2. How many days is it from 622 to 1844?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Respond to these two simple questions directly and specifically.

1. If as you say the year is 360, how come you calculated based on 354?
2. How many days is it from 622 to 1844?

I edited the last post.

The 30 day, 360 year is useful to understand how to convert 31/2 years and 42 months to 1260 days, then to years.

Each day for a year passages, are useful when converting the Daniel 8:14 prophecy of 2300 days to years. "And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." Thus 2300 years

Day-year principle - Wikipedia

The knowledge of a 360 day biblical year is not needed or used in every calculation.

Regards Tony
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
The 30 day, 360 year is useful to understand how to convert 31/2 years and 42 months to 1260 days, then to years.

360 days a year is only useful to justify the 1260/42 is 30 days a month thats it and then you shift to 354 days a year for the calculation to justify the faith.

And of course you did not respond to the second question "2. How many days is it from 622 to 1844?"
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
360 days a year is only useful to justify the 1260/42 is 30 days a month thats it and then you shift to 354 days a year for the calculation to justify the faith.

And of course you did not respond to the second question "2. How many days is it from 622 to 1844?"

It was 1260 Years, fulfilling Prophecy. I do not need to calculate the days.

AD 622 was the start of the Islamic calendar, After the Hijra AH, AH1260 was the year 1260 on the Muslim Calendar, 1844 of the Gregorian Calendar.

The Bible foretold of this calendar in Prophecy. Again proving the Message of Islam is foretold in the Bible.

Regards Tony
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
It was 1260 Years, fulfilling Prophecy. I do not need to calculate the days.

AD 622 was the start of the Islamic calendar, After the Hijra AH, AH1260 was the year 1260 on the Muslim Calendar, 1844 of the Gregorian Calendar.

The Bible foretold of this calendar in Prophecy. Again proving the Message of Islam is foretold in the Bible.

Regards Tony

Thats wrong. Absolutely wrong. The hijri year does not calculate anything other than days. So obviously the number of days matters. Otherwise how in the world will you calculate the number of moon cycles? How in the world can you say "I dont ned to calculate the days"?

Tell me. What date in the year 622 does your calculation begin with? What is the beginning of the lunar year? And please confirm the end date that you have calculated the prophecy to. Its very important.

Also this time you have missed the other question I asked. (Please don't stick to only this question this time)
360 days a year is only useful to justify the 1260/42 is 30 days a month thats it and then you shift to 354 days a year for the calculation to justify the faith.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Thats wrong. Absolutely wrong. The hijri year does not calculate anything other than days. So obviously the number of days matters. Otherwise how in the world will you calculate the number of moon cycles? How in the world can you say "I dont ned to calculate the days"?

Tell me. What date in the year 622 does your calculation begin with? What is the beginning of the lunar year? And please confirm the end date that you have calculated the prophecy to. Its very important.

Also this time you have missed the other question I asked. (Please don't stick to only this question this time)

@firedragon - I will leave it there - I do not see the complications you are trying to insert into these calculations. To me it is logical

If you wish have a look into it further the 34 talks by Abdul'baha are found here.

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library - Rational Proofs and Traditional Arguments from the Sacred Scriptures
Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library - Commentary on the Eleventh Chapter of the Revelation of John
Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library - Commentary on the Eleventh Chapter of Isaiah
Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library - Commentary on the Twelfth Chapter of the Revelation of John

Peace be with you.


Regards Tony
 
Last edited:

firedragon

Veteran Member
@firedragon - I will leave it there - I do not see the complications you are trying to insert into these calculations. To me it is logical

If you wish have a look into it further the 34 talks by Abdul'baha are found here.

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library - Rational Proofs and Traditional Arguments from the Sacred Scriptures
Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library - Rational Proofs and Traditional Arguments from the Sacred Scriptures
Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library - Commentary on the Eleventh Chapter of Isaiah
Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library - Commentary on the Eleventh Chapter of Isaiah

Peace be with you.


Regards Tony

What you are again saying is that you do not wish to analyse or engage in the exchange. In that case, that ends the discussion in which I wish to clarify.

thanks. Peace.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What you are again saying is that you do not wish to analyse or engage in the exchange. In that case, that ends the discussion in which I wish to clarify.

thanks. Peace.

I just feel I am now pushing this all on you. I read all these explanations in the past and had no questions, it made perfect logical sense to me, thus I do not see the complication you see. To me, that now means it is not for you, it is not what your heart needs to see.

I wish you peace. Thank you for the chat - It is a very hot day where I live, we hit the 40 today and the season is just beginning.

Regards Tony
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I just feel I am now pushing this all on you. I read all these explanations in the past and had no questions, it made perfect logical sense to me, thus I do not see the complication you see. To me, that now means it is not for you, it is not what your heart needs to see.

I wish you peace. Thank you for the chat - It is a very hot day where I live, we hit the 40 today and the season is just beginning.

Regards Tony

Brother. I am eternally getting a very similar dismissal or/and a "I can care less/more but I just believe" type of answer.

I will try my best to avoid the Bahai faith and the questions I have about it in the future. But please be also kind enough not bring the Bahai faith into every single discussion since this is the ultimate ending answer to all.

Salamun alaika.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Brother. I am eternally getting a very similar dismissal or/and a "I can care less/more but I just believe" type of answer.

I will try my best to avoid the Bahai faith and the questions I have about it in the future. But please be also kind enough not bring the Bahai faith into every single discussion since this is the ultimate ending answer to all.

Salamun alaika.

That is all that I do post firedragon, it would be dishonest for me not to, as I see that the future of humanity lays in acceptance of this message and no where else.

I will always offer As-Salaam-Alaikum, no matter what the future holds, who knows one day we may meet and I would always greet you as a friend.

Regards Tony
 
Last edited:

firedragon

Veteran Member
That is all that I do post firedragon, it would be dishonest for me not to, as I see that the future of humanity lays in acceptance of this message and no where else.

I will always offer As-Salaam-Alaikum, not matter what the future holds, who knows one day we may meet and I would always greet you as a friend.

Regards Tony

of course.

ahlan wa sahlan bika ahee

Peace.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I believe that Rev. 11:15 refers to Baha’u’llah, who was the seventh angel:

“The seventh angel is a man qualified with heavenly attributes, who will arise with heavenly qualities and character. Voices will be raised, so that the appearance of the Divine Manifestation will be proclaimed and diffused. In the day of the manifestation of the Lord of Hosts, and at the epoch of the divine cycle of the Omnipotent which is promised and mentioned in all the books and writings of the Prophets—in that day of God, the Spiritual and Divine Kingdom will be established, and the world will be renewed; a new spirit will be breathed into the body of creation; the season of the divine spring will come; the clouds of mercy will rain; the sun of reality will shine; the life-giving breeze will blow; the world of humanity will wear a new garment; the surface of the earth will be a sublime paradise; mankind will be educated; wars, disputes, quarrels and malignity will disappear; and truthfulness, righteousness, peace and the worship of God will appear; union, love and brotherhood will surround the world; and God will rule for evermore—meaning that the Spiritual and Everlasting Kingdom will be established. Such is the day of God. For all the days which have come and gone were the days of Abraham, Moses and Christ, or of the other Prophets; but this day is the day of God, for the Sun of Reality will arise in it with the utmost warmth and splendor.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 56-57
So Rev 11:15 is Baha'u'llah? Here's what Revelation says:

Chapter 8: 1 When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.
2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.​

Who are the other 6 angels?

12
The fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them turned dark. A third of the day was without light, and also a third of the night.
13 As I watched, I heard an eagle that was flying in midair call out in a loud voice: “Woe! Woe! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels!”
So the 3 Woes are Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah and the 7th Angel is also Baha'u'llah?

Chapter 9:1 The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss.
2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss.
3 And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth.
4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
5 They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months.
This is part of the first Woe. And Baha'is believe this to be about Muhammad. What are the 5 months? Are you going to convert them to days then years then lunar years?

The first woe is past; two other woes are yet to come.
13 The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the four horns of the golden altar that is before God.
14 It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.”
15 And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind.
16 The number of the mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand. I heard their number.
17 The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur.
18 A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths.
The 1st Woe is past, and now we get into the 2nd Woe, The Bab. 4 more angels are released. Who are they? Are all angels manifestations or only the 7th Angel? When did a third of mankind get killed during The Bab's time as being the 2nd Woe. Then, when did that massive army assemble and kill the people? I'll continue...
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I believe that Rev. 11:15 refers to Baha’u’llah, who was the seventh angel:

“The seventh angel is a man qualified with heavenly attributes, who will arise with heavenly qualities and character. Voices will be raised, so that the appearance of the Divine Manifestation will be proclaimed and diffused. In the day of the manifestation of the Lord of Hosts, and at the epoch of the divine cycle of the Omnipotent which is promised and mentioned in all the books and writings of the Prophets—in that day of God, the Spiritual and Divine Kingdom will be established, and the world will be renewed; a new spirit will be breathed into the body of creation; the season of the divine spring will come; the clouds of mercy will rain; the sun of reality will shine; the life-giving breeze will blow; the world of humanity will wear a new garment; the surface of the earth will be a sublime paradise; mankind will be educated; wars, disputes, quarrels and malignity will disappear; and truthfulness, righteousness, peace and the worship of God will appear; union, love and brotherhood will surround the world; and God will rule for evermore—meaning that the Spiritual and Everlasting Kingdom will be established. Such is the day of God. For all the days which have come and gone were the days of Abraham, Moses and Christ, or of the other Prophets; but this day is the day of God, for the Sun of Reality will arise in it with the utmost warmth and splendor.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 56-57
Revelation 10:1 Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven. He was robed in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head; his face was like the sun, and his legs were like fiery pillars.
And yet another angel. Who is this one? This is during The Bab's 2nd Woe. But other stuff happens during the 2nd Woe.

Chapter 11:1 ...“Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers.
2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.
3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”
7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.
8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city...
9 For three and a half days...
11 But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them.
12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.
13 At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.
So... the 2nd Woe is supposedly The Bab, but what are these 2 Witnesses doing here? Baha'is say that the 2 Witnesses are Muhammad and Ali. They've been and gone. Or, the is not about The Bab. Which is it? And then this mysterious earthquake. Baha'is say an earth happened right after The Bab was killed. Is there proof of it happening? And, did a tenth of the city collapse and did 7000 people die? And so ends the 2nd Woe. And now the 3rd Woe and the 7th Angel.

Rev 12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.
2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.
3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads.
4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born.
5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.
6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
What? This is Baha'u'llah's Woe. Why are we going back to some more references to 1260 days that get converted to years that get converted to lunar years that show that the time from the Hegira to the declaration of The Bab is year 1260 in the Islamic calendar? We are done with that. Now we need some indication that this 3nd Woe is Baha'u'llah. And that this Angel is him also. What do we have? We have beasts and dragons.

Rev 13:1 The dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.
2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.
3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed...
5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months.
11 Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon.
12 It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed...
The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.
16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads,
17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.
18 This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. That number is 666.
And what does this have to do with Baha'u'llah? Baha'is have told me these beasts and dragons are the Umayyads and Abbasids. We are going back to the time of the 1st Woe? Anyway, next comes some interesting stuff.

Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.
6 Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people.
7 He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.”
8 A second angel followed and said, “ ‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great,’ which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries.”
9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand,
10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury..
The Lamb? Who's the Lamb? The 7th Angel/3rd Woe who Baha'is say is Baha'u'llah has already come. Now what? Are you going to say Baha'u'llah is the Lamb also? But who are these 144,000? They are the ones that sing the new song. But we've got more angels. Are they manifestations too? But the 3rd angel is still talking about the mark of the beast. But what about this mark or number of the beast... the 666? One Baha'i said that it is the year that the Umayyads took control of Islam. How again does that work? I mean in context. I know how he made it work. I believe 661 was the year he needed so he added 5 years to that to get to 666. He got the 5 years because Jesus was born approximately 5 years before year zero. But, whatever.

Rev 15:1 I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed.
Now what? 7 more angels? But the 7th one out of the last group of angels was Baha'u'llah? And, it is with this one the wrath of God is completed? Hmmm? Plagues and disasters follow... ugly stuff then...

Rev 18:10 “ ‘Woe! Woe to you, great city, you mighty city of Babylon! In one hour your doom has come!’
16 ...“ ‘Woe! Woe to you, great city...
17 In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!’
More "Woes"? I thought Baha'is said "Woes" are manifestations? I guess not, huh?

Rev 19:7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.
8 Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.” (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)
9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”
10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”
11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war...
19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army.
20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
We're not even at the end of Revelation yet. But here we've got this Lamb again. Jesus is mentioned by name. And the beast is finally captured and thrown into a fiery pit. This beast that the Baha'is say was either the Umayyads or Abbasids or both. If ever Revelation would be talking about Baha'u'llah, it would be now and to the end of Revelation. Are you sure you have all this interpreted correctly? Are you sure Baha'u'llah has fulfilled all the prophesies? Of course you are. Let me end with the final words of Revelation again...

Rev 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God’s people. Amen.
Why does it say "I, Jesus"? Why does it say "Come, Lord Jesus"? I cannot blame Christians one bit for believing it is Jesus coming back. And, I cannot blame them for not believing that Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
(T)he surface of the earth will be a sublime paradise; mankind will be educated; wars, disputes, quarrels and malignity will disappear; and truthfulness, righteousness, peace and the worship of God will appear...
And when did this happen? When the manifestation appeared? Or, long after he appeared and the world gets polluted and wars continue? Oh, and tell him thanks for giving people the knowledge and capacity to develop more lethal weapons.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
No. Its wrong. I just dont wish to sound harsh to the Bahai community who believes in this. I think that the Bahai belief in this prophecy and the calculations is not sticking to any standard. No consistency. Have you calculated the way they have calculated?
So they have to convert 1260 years to lunar years to get to 1222 then add that to 622. It is the year 1260 on the Islamic calendar, but it sure takes some manipulation to make the dates in Revelation work. Especially the 42 month one. Why multiply it by 30 to get 1260 just to divide it into the lunar calendar to get 1222 years in the solar calendar? But, then again, 6 references that the Baha'is use and turn into the 1260 prophecy? Each one referring to a different event, yet they revert back to 622 as when to start the calculation for each one? No consistency.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The standard was that of William Miller who founded the SDA Church. It was a Christian that discovered and first preached this interpretation. He did that in prayer and reflection.

Regards Tony
William Miller was the Daniel prophecy, not the 1260 from Revelation. Could you go over that one again. I have never seen a Christian refute it, yet.
 
Top