Why did the world reject the Messiah when He Did come?

[TransmutingSoul]

Why does anyone start a new religion?

That is a question between you and God.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Here's some more of Revelation. Since Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah has fulfilled all prophecy, what are these prophecies talking about? When and how were they fulfilled?

The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss.
When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss.
And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth.
They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes.
During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.
The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces.
Their hair was like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth.
They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle.
They had tails with stingers, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months.
They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer).​

Here's some more Tony...
Q: Was Rev 11:12-13 fulfilled by an earthquake in Shiraz when the Bab was executed as Baha'is teach in Some Questions Answered p.55-56?
A: No. First of all, I have not seen any evidence of an earthquake in Shiraz at this time. Second, if Baha'is want to make Rev 11 refer to Mohammed and 'Ali, and then they switch the person to the Bab in Revelation 11:12-13. Either the Bab was one of the two witnesses or he was not. If he was not, then it is stretching the Bible to take this verse in isolation and say it refers to the Bab.

This is Abdul Baha saying that an earthquake happened and fulfilled the prophesied earthquake from Revelation. If this guy is right, that there was no earthquake, that is not a good thing for the leader of the Baha'i Faith to be claiming. Oh, and the Baha'i interpretation of the verses I posted should be that it is about Muhammad. Baha'i claim that he is the "first Woe". These are the verses about the first woe. Can you explain how they fit in with Muhammad?

 

[CG Didymus]

It's been spread enough for many to have heard about it now. Still the numbers remain stagnant or in decline. Why is that?

It's like when people get all hyped up about a movie. The trailer made it sound so good. But, the only good parts were in the trailer. The rest of the movie was a bore. That might be what is happening with the Baha'i Faith. They sound so good. They sound like they are going to change the world. But, then too many join up and get bored and drop out. Why? I think Christians have the same problem. Proselytizing, oops, there I go again, I mean, religions that "teach" about how great they are, can't live up to the hype. People join and expect more than the religion really has to offer. And the religion expects more than the new people are ready to give... a total commitment and a total belief in everything the religion teaches. People think, "Whoa, wait I didn't sign up for this" and they quit or become inactive.

 

[CG Didymus]

Ser brother, I read the book Abdul baha wrote. He clearly says "the advent of islam". Yes, he does mention the year of hijri, but if he is to take the year of hijri and the islamic calendar, then the islamic calendar is a lunar calendar. So a year has 354 days a year, so why not take that into calculation? Why not be consistent?

Also, the advent of Isllam, the beginning of ot with Muhammed rationally happened in 610.

Too many cherry pickings and inconsistencies. There is no rational reconciliation. Impossible.

I kind of see what Baha'is did here. Since the lunar year has fewer days and the average month would only be 29.5 days then the prophecies of 42 months should be 1239 days or so. But the Baha'is still use 30 days to come up with 1260 days and then convert that to years. But 1260 added on to 622 equals 1882? So now they convert the years to the lunar year that lasts only 354 days and reduces the 1260 years to 1222 and then adds the 622 to get 1844? Or, more simply, 1260 on the Islamic calendar is 1844. Yes, too many things to juggle.

 

[firedragon]

I kind of see what Baha'is did here. Since the lunar year has fewer days and the average month would only be 29.5 days then the prophecies of 42 months should be 1239 days or so. But the Baha'is still use 30 days to come up with 1260 days and then convert that to years. But 1260 added on to 622 equals 1882? So now they convert the years to the lunar year that lasts only 354 days and reduces the 1260 years to 1222 and then adds the 622 to get 1844? Or, more simply, 1260 on the Islamic calendar is 1844. Yes, too many things to juggle.

I found what they did. I was wrong earlier.

 

[CG Didymus]

I found what they did. I was wrong earlier.

So it is correct in saying that Revelation predicted Christ would return in 1844 as The Bab?

 

[Trailblazer]

So it is correct in saying that Revelation predicted Christ would return in 1844 as The Bab?

I do not know what Revelation says, except for the following:

“The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.” (Rev. 11:14) The first woe is the appearance of the Prophet, Muhammad, the son of ‘Abdu’lláh—peace be upon Him! The second woe is that of the Báb—to Him be glory and praise! The third woe is the great day of the manifestation of the Lord of Hosts and the radiance of the Beauty of the Promised One. The explanation of this subject, woe, is mentioned in the thirtieth chapter of Ezekiel, where it is said: “The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying, Son of man, prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Howl ye, Woe worth the day! For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near.” (Ez. 30:1-3)

Therefore, it is certain that the day of woe is the day of the Lord; for in that day woe is for the neglectful, woe is for the sinners, woe is for the ignorant. That is why it is said, “The second woe is past; behold the third woe cometh quickly!” This third woe is the day of the manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh, the day of God; and it is near to the day of the appearance of the Báb.

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.” (Rev. 11:15).” Some Answered Questions, p. 56​

I believe that Rev. 11:15 refers to Baha’u’llah, who was the seventh angel:

“The seventh angel is a man qualified with heavenly attributes, who will arise with heavenly qualities and character. Voices will be raised, so that the appearance of the Divine Manifestation will be proclaimed and diffused. In the day of the manifestation of the Lord of Hosts, and at the epoch of the divine cycle of the Omnipotent which is promised and mentioned in all the books and writings of the Prophets—in that day of God, the Spiritual and Divine Kingdom will be established, and the world will be renewed; a new spirit will be breathed into the body of creation; the season of the divine spring will come; the clouds of mercy will rain; the sun of reality will shine; the life-giving breeze will blow; the world of humanity will wear a new garment; the surface of the earth will be a sublime paradise; mankind will be educated; wars, disputes, quarrels and malignity will disappear; and truthfulness, righteousness, peace and the worship of God will appear; union, love and brotherhood will surround the world; and God will rule for evermore—meaning that the Spiritual and Everlasting Kingdom will be established. Such is the day of God. For all the days which have come and gone were the days of Abraham, Moses and Christ, or of the other Prophets; but this day is the day of God, for the Sun of Reality will arise in it with the utmost warmth and splendor.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 56-57​

This is also explained in God Passes By:

“St. John the Divine had himself, with reference to these two successive Revelations, clearly prophesied: “The second woe is past; and, behold the third woe cometh quickly.” “This third woe,” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, commenting upon this verse, has explained, “is the day of the Manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh, the Day of God, and it is near to the day of the appearance of the Báb.” “All the peoples of the world,” He moreover has asserted, “are awaiting two Manifestations, Who must be contemporaneous; all wait for the fulfillment of this promise.” And again: “The essential fact is that all are promised two Manifestations, Who will come one following on the other.” Shaykh Ahmad-i-Ahsá’í, that luminous star of Divine guidance who had so clearly perceived, before the year sixty, the approaching glory of Bahá’u’lláh, and laid stress upon “the twin Revelations which are to follow each other in rapid succession,” had, on his part, made this significant statement regarding the approaching hour of that supreme Revelation, in an epistle addressed in his own hand to Siyyid Kázim: “The mystery of this Cause must needs be made manifest, and the secret of this Message must needs be divulged. I can say no more. I can appoint no time. His Cause will be made known after Hin (68).”” God Passes By, pp. 92-93​

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Here's some more Tony...
Q: Was Rev 11:12-13 fulfilled by an earthquake in Shiraz when the Bab was executed as Baha'is teach in Some Questions Answered p.55-56?
A: No. First of all, I have not seen any evidence of an earthquake in Shiraz at this time. Second, if Baha'is want to make Rev 11 refer to Mohammed and 'Ali, and then they switch the person to the Bab in Revelation 11:12-13. Either the Bab was one of the two witnesses or he was not. If he was not, then it is stretching the Bible to take this verse in isolation and say it refers to the Bab.

This is Abdul Baha saying that an earthquake happened and fulfilled the prophesied earthquake from Revelation. If this guy is right, that there was no earthquake, that is not a good thing for the leader of the Baha'i Faith to be claiming. Oh, and the Baha'i interpretation of the verses I posted should be that it is about Muhammad. Baha'i claim that he is the "first Woe". These are the verses about the first woe. Can you explain how they fit in with Muhammad?

The Bab was executed in Tabriz on July 9, 1850 at midday.

As to the records of that day, I do not know where the can be found. Interestingly there was a major earthquake in Tabriz in 1853, the year Baha'u'llah received His Message.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

So it is correct in saying that Revelation predicted Christ would return in 1844 as The Bab?

No. Its wrong. I just dont wish to sound harsh to the Bahai community who believes in this. I think that the Bahai belief in this prophecy and the calculations is not sticking to any standard. No consistency. Have you calculated the way they have calculated?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No. Its wrong. I just dont wish to sound harsh to the Bahai community who believes in this. I think that the Bahai belief in this prophecy and the calculations is not sticking to any standard. No consistency. Have you calculated the way they have calculated?

The standard was that of William Miller who founded the SDA Church. It was a Christian that discovered and first preached this interpretation. He did that in prayer and reflection.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So it is correct in saying that Revelation predicted Christ would return in 1844 as The Bab?

William Miller thought and predicted it was. Many accepted it as correct and were waiting, sold all their earthly goods.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

The standard was that of William Miller who founded the SDA Church. It was a Christian that discovered and first preached this interpretation. He did that in prayer and reflection.

Regards Tony

Yep. We have gone through this brother.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No. Its wrong. I just dont wish to sound harsh to the Bahai community who believes in this. I think that the Bahai belief in this prophecy and the calculations is not sticking to any standard. No consistency. Have you calculated the way they have calculated?

William Miller thought and predicted it was. Many accepted it as correct and were waiting, sold all their earthly goods.

Regards Tony

Yep. We have gone through this brother.

Thus you would also add to your comment that William Miller showed no consistency in arriving at his conclusion?

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

Thus you would also add to your comment that William Miller showed no consistency in arriving at his conclusion?

So what you are saying is that you agree with Millerism because it supports the Bahai calculations? Or is it because it agrees you adopt it? Or is it just a coincidence?

Ah. Alright. Have you analysed the calculation of the Bahai view? You yourself said that a year is 360 days. But can you tell me if the Bahai's have taken the year as 360 in their calculations?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So what you are saying is that you agree with Millerism because it supports the Bahai calculations? Or is it because it agrees you adopt it? Or is it just a coincidence?

Ah. Alright. Have you analysed the calculation of the Bahai view? You yourself said that a year is 360 days. But can you tell me if the Bahai's have taken the year as 360 in their calculations?

It is up to you as to how and why you see William Miller was so passionate about the return of Christ and how he determined those calculations. I see it was the dawn of a new day and some get up early to pray to God and greet the rising sun.

I can only say, as it happened as he calculated, is that he got it right.

Later on in a talk, Abdul'baha showed in detail how Daniel foretold the coming of Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah and showed William Miller had correctly interpreted the time prophecies.

Of course, if nothing happened in 1844, no issues.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Ah. Alright. Have you analysed the calculation of the Bahai view? You yourself said that a year is 360 days. But can you tell me if the Bahai's have taken the year as 360 in their calculations?

The Bible informs us of all this.

Prophetic Year - Wikipedia

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

It is up to you as to how and why you see William Miller was so passionate about the return of Christ and how he determined those calculations. I see it was the dawn of a new day and some get up early to pray to God and greet the rising sun.

I can only say, as it happened as he calculated, is that he got it right.

Later on in a talk, Abdul'baha showed in detail how Daniel foretold the coming of Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah and showed William Miller had correctly interpreted the time prophecies.

Of course, if nothing happened in 1844, no issues.

Regards Tony

A lot of people are passionate brother. One persons passion or his belief does not prove anything. And I have recently read Abdul Baha's book.

The problem I see is that you seem to accept everything purely on the face of who said it and who agreed to it. Maybe I do that too. Even if I do the same as you, I dont agree with it.

No matter who it is who said it or supposedly said it I must investigate and find the validity of it based on analysis. Or I will fall into the blind faith category my own scripture tells me not to do.

Peace.

 

[firedragon]

The Bible informs us of all this.

Prophetic Year - Wikipedia

Regards Tony

Yep. Ive read it. Thanks. But have you calculated the leap years?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

A lot of people are passionate brother. One persons passion or his belief does not prove anything. And I have recently read Abdul Baha's book.

The problem I see is that you seem to accept everything purely on the face of who said it and who agreed to it. Maybe I do that too. Even if I do the same as you, I dont agree with it.

No matter who it is who said it or supposedly said it I must investigate and find the validity of it based on analysis. Or I will fall into the blind faith category my own scripture tells me not to do.

Peace.

I agree that a just and independent investigation is required.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yep. Ive read it. Thanks. But have you calculated the leap years?

It is not required to do this. It is at times neccessary to consider either Solar or Luna calendar starting and finishing points.

Regards Tony