Why did the world reject the Messiah when He Did come?

[CG Didymus]

I also personally see everything is special. I have seen when we look deeper, the more special it all becomes, the more the entire fabric of existence becomes bound together.

My wife always tells me she sees the world different from others. When she looks at a tree, she sees all that tree is. Each leaf, each branch, each insect comes into focus. We often walk and I pass a shrub and I will be pulled back, Tony look at this, did you not see this beauty.

I'm still an apprentice

Regards Tony

Yes, I walked out into the woods and saw a mountain lion ripe apart and devour a deer. So beautiful. All the flesh and internal organs giving life and strength to the lion. Blood and pieces of the deer spread out over the ground. Insects, birds and little creatures of the forest came and ate up the rest. Ah, God is so great and good.

Salmon were jumping up and over a small waterfall on their way to their spawning grounds. Some were being picked off by bears and eagles. I watched the salmon flop around in the mouth of the bear. Then, the bear bit a chunk out of the middle of the fish and went back to the river to catch another. The eagle took its salmon high up into a tree and ate most of the fish. But parts of the salmon fall on the forest floor. I guess researchers say that even the trees absorb nutrients from the salmon. The grand and beautiful chain of life that the great creator has made. Everything gets eaten or dies and turns into dirt. Awesome! What a plan!

People dying in floods and hurricanes. People dying from strange diseases. The sheer beauty of it amazes me. What a great and wonderful God to make this world a place of pain and suffering just for us. For us to grow and become more spiritual in our knowledge of how loving and kind our God really is. Praise him. What a nice guy.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, I walked out into the woods and saw a mountain lion ripe apart and devour a deer. So beautiful. All the flesh and internal organs giving life and strength to the lion. Blood and pieces of the deer spread out over the ground. Insects, birds and little creatures of the forest came and ate up the rest. Ah, God is so great and good.

Salmon were jumping up and over a small waterfall on their way to their spawning grounds. Some were being picked off by bears and eagles. I watched the salmon flop around in the mouth of the bear. Then, the bear bit a chunk out of the middle of the fish and went back to the river to catch another. The eagle took its salmon high up into a tree and ate most of the fish. But parts of the salmon fall on the forest floor. I guess researchers say that even the trees absorb nutrients from the salmon. The grand and beautiful chain of life that the great creator has made. Everything gets eaten or dies and turns into dirt. Awesome! What a plan!

People dying in floods and hurricanes. People dying from strange diseases. The sheer beauty of it amazes me. What a great and wonderful God to make this world a place of pain and suffering just for us. For us to grow and become more spiritual in our knowledge of how loving and kind our God really is. Praise him. What a nice guy.

Thank you for finally giving us what you see in life.

Finding the beauty in all things is not an easy journey, many will ridicule such an endeavour.

The Bible prepared us for this quandary;

Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things"

It becomes a choice, a state of mind to know all life has meaning outside of what we see in the Material world. It is all given so we can truly know Love.

Regards Tony

 

[IndigoChild5559]

We both have no real way to prove that.



Except.... Maybe there is a stronger case that people were expecting all over the world.

Regards Tony

Yes we do. We have records going back thousands of years, and there is no indication of any messianic orientation. It simply doesn't fit in with Taoism, Confucionism, Ancestor worship, or Ch'an Buddhism.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Let me help you out with your befuddlement. These will help you get on the right track:

"The Historical Jesus," by scholar Dr. Gary Habermas;

“The Historical Jesus of the Gospels,” by Dr. Craig Keener

"New Evidence that Demands a Verdict," by former skeptic Josh McDowell;

"Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics," by Dr. Norman Geisler;

"The Case for Christ," by Lee Strobel," and

"The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus," by Dr. Gary Habermas.

“Miracles – The Credibility of the New Testament Accounts,” by Craig S. Keener

“The Case for Miracles,” by Lee Strobel

You are referring me to men who are not scholars. Josh McDowell? Give me a break. He tries to make rational things that are taken by faith.

 

[Spartan]

You are referring me to men who are not scholars. Josh McDowell? Give me a break. He tries to make rational things that are taken by faith.

Gary Habermas is not a scholar? What cave do you live in?

Dr. Gary Habermas

EDUCATION:

• Ph.D., (1976), Michigan State University
  • Area: History and Philosophy of Religion
• M.A., (1973), University of Detroit
  • Area: Philosophical Theology/Christian Thought
• B.R.E., (1972), William Tyndale College
  • Majors: Social Sciences, Christian Education, Bible
  • Minors: Philosophy, Greek, English and Speech

EXPERIENCE:

• 1981 to present: Liberty University
  Title and Position: Distinguished Research Professor; Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary and Graduate School; Chair, Department of Philosophy, Liberty University; current appointment: teaching in PhD Seminary program
  
• 1979 to 1981: William Tyndale College
  Position and Title: Chairman of Philosophy Department, Associate Professor of Apologetics and Philosophy of Religion

PUBLICATIONS:

• Forty Books (Author, Co-Author, or Editor), including:
  
  • Evidence for the Historical Jesus (E-Book, 2015)
  • The Resurrection of Jesus Handbook (Credo, 2014)
  • Philosophy of History, Miracles, and the Resurrection of Jesus, third edition (Academx Publishing, 2012)
  • Memories of Jesus: A Critical Appraisal of James D. G. Dunn’s Jesus Remembered, co-ed with Robert B. Stewart (Broadman & Holman, 2010).
  • Why is God Ignoring Me? What to do When it Feels Like He’s Giving You the Silent Treatment (Tyndale, 2010).
  • Did the Resurrection Happen? A Conversation with Gary Habermas and Antony Flew, with Antony Flew, ed. David Baggett (InterVarsity, 2009).
  • What’s so Good about Feeling Bad?, with John Thomas (Tyndale, 2008)
  • C. S. Lewis as Philosopher, co-ed. with Jerry Walls & David Baggett (InterVarsity, 2008)
  • The Secret of the Talpiot Tomb: Unraveling the Mystery of the Jesus Family Tomb (Broadman & Holman, 2007)
  • Resurrected? An Atheist & Theist Dialogue with A. Flew (Rowman & Littlefield, 2005)
  • The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus with M. Licona (Kregel, 2004)
  • The Risen Jesus & Future Hope (Rowman & Littlefield, 2003)
  • The Resurrection: Heart of New Testament Doctrine (College Press, 2000)
  • The Resurrection: Heart of the Christian Life (College Press, 2000)
  • The Thomas Factor: Using Your Doubts to Draw Closer to God (Broadman & Holman, 1999)
  • Beyond Death: Exploring the Evidence for Immortality with J.P. Moreland (Crossway, 1998; Wipf & Stock, 2003)
  • In Defense of Miracles: A Comprehensive Case for God's Action in History co-ed. with D. Geivett (Inter-Varsity, 1997)
  • Forever Loved: A Personal Account of Grief & Resurrection (College Press, 1997)
  • Prolegomena to Theology (Harcourt Brace, 1996)
  • Survey of Christian Theology (Harcourt Brace, 1996)
  • The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ (College Press, 1996)
  • Why Believe? God Exists! with T. Miethe (College Press, 1993)
  • Dealing with Doubt (Moody Press, 1990)
  • The Shroud & the Controversy: Science, Skepticism, and the Search for Authenticity with K. Stevenson (Thomas Nelson, 1990)
  • Did Jesus Rise from the Dead? The Resurrection Debate with A. Flew, ed. T. Miethe (Harper & Row, 1987; Wipf & Stock, 2003)
  • Verdict on the Shroud: Evidence for the Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ with K. Stevenson (Servant Books, 1981; Dell Publishing, 1982); Nine foreign editions; International best-seller
  • The Resurrection of Jesus: An Apologetic (Baker, 1980; University Press of America, 1984)
    
• Over Seventy Chapters, Essays, or Articles in Additional Books, including:
  
  • "Jesus did Rise from the Dead," in Debating Christian Theism, ed. J.P. Moreland, Chad Meister, & Khaldoun A. Sweis (Oxford University Press, 2013)
  • "Evil, the Resurrection, and the Example of Jesus," in God and Evil, ed. Chad Meister & James K. Dew, Jr. (InterVarsity, 2013)
  • Nine articles in If God Made the Universe, Who Made God? (Holman Reference, 2012)
  • "Tracing Jesus' Resurrection to its Earliest Eyewitness Accounts," ed. William Lane Craig & Chad Meister (InterVarsity, 2009)
  • "The Resurrection of Jesus and the Talpiot Tomb," in Buried Hope or Risen Savior? ed. Charles Quarles (Broadman & Holman, 2008)
  • "The Resurrection of Jesus and Recent Agnosticism," in Reasons for Faith, ed. Norman Geisler & Chad Meister (Crossway, 2007)
  • "The Resurrection Appearances of Jesus" in Harmony of the Gospels, ed. Steven L. Cox & Kendall H. Easley (Broadman & Holman, 2007)
  • "Mapping the Recent Trend toward the Bodily Resurrection Appearances of Jesus in Light of Other Prominent Critical Positions," in The Resurrection of Jesus: John Dominic Crossan & N. T. Wright in Dialogue, ed. R. Stewart (Fortress, 2006)
  • "Resurrection of Jesus" & "Resurrection of Jesus, Implications of," in New Dictionary of Christian Apologetics, ed. C. Campbell-Jack & G. McGrath (InterVarsity, 2006)
  • "The Case for Christ's Resurrection," in To Everyone an Answer, ed. F. Beckwith, W. L. Craig, & J.P. Moreland (InterVarsity, 2004)
  • "Plato, Platonism," "Rationalism," & "Resurrection of Christ," in Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, ed. W. Elwell, Second Ed. (Baker, 2001)
  • "Why I Believe the Miracles of Jesus Actually Happened" & "Why I Believe the New Testament is Historically Reliable," in Why I am a Christian, ed. N. Geisler & P. Hoffman (Baker, 2001)
  • "Historical Epistemology, Jesus' Resurrection, & the Shroud of Turin," in Proceedings of the 1999 Shroud of Turin International Conference, ed. B. Walsh (Magisterium Press, 2000)
  • "The Evidence of Appearances," in The Case for Christ by L. Strobel (Harper Collins/Zondervan, 1998)
  • "Philosophy of History, Historical Relativism and History as Evidence," in Evangelical Apologetics, ed. M. Bauman, D. W. Hall, & R. C. Newman (Christian Publications, 1996)
  • "Did Jesus Perform Miracles?" in Jesus Under Fire: Modern Scholarship Reinvents the Historical Jesus, ed. M. Wilkins & J.P. Moreland (Zondervan, 1995)
  • "A Public Debate" in Arguing Persuasively by R. Lee & K. Lee (Longmans, 1989)
  • "A Plea for the Practical Application of Christian Philosophy" in A Christian's Guide to Faith and Reason by T. Miethe (Bethany, 1987)
  • "Averroes, Rationalism and the Leap of Faith" in Shalom: Essays In Honor of Dr. Charles H. Shaw, ed. E. J. Mayhew (Tyndale College Press, 1983)
  • "Skepticism: David Hume" in Biblical Errancy: An Analysis of Its Philosophical Roots, ed. N. Geisler (Zondervan, 1981)
  • • Articles:
      Well over 100 articles and reviews published (or accepted) in journals and magazines such as:
      
      Religious Studies, Faith and Philosophy, Journal for the Study of the Historical Jesus, Dialog: A Journal of Theology, Irish Theological Quarterly, Fides et Historia, Christian Scholar's Review, Philosophia Christi, Catholic Digest, The Simon Greenleaf Review of Law and Religion, Bibliotheca Sacra, Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society, Themelios, Trinity Journal, International Christian Digest, Apologia (India), Criswell Theological Review, Journal of Church and State, Journal of Psychology and Christianity, Christian Counseling Today, Christian Leadership Journal, Grace Theological Journal, Christianity Today, Saturday Evening Post, and Conservative Digest.
    VISITING or ADJUNCT PROFESSORSHIPS:
    
    1996 to present: Visiting or Adjunct Professor, teaching over forty courses at fifteen different Graduate Schools and Seminaries, including:
    
    Trinity Evangelical, Trinity Western/Northwestern (Vancouver, Canada), Biola, Bethel, Western (Conservative Baptist), Southeastern Baptist, Tyndale (Toronto), Tyndale (Amsterdam), Reformed (Orlando), Southern Evangelical, Faith
    
  • Publications of Dr. Gary R. Habermas - Online Resource for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Gary Habermas is not a scholar? What cave do you live in?

He's had good training, but what he's put out is deplorable. Liberty University? Are you kidding me? It's a rathole of fundamentalist anti-intellectual warpage of everything scholars teach. Basically, he went to school and let everything go in one ear and out the other. He wrote a ton of nonsense. He's simply another one of those idiots that thinks you can be rational about things that really are issues of faith, not reason.

 

[Spartan]

He's had good training, but what he's put out is deplorable. Liberty University? Are you kidding me? It's a rathole of fundamentalist anti-intellectual warpage of everything scholars teach. Basically, he went to school and let everything go in one ear and out the other. He wrote a ton of nonsense. He's simply another one of those idiots that thinks you can be rational about things that really are issues of faith, not reason.

Nope. It's your twisted view of Christianity and its scholars that's the problem - not Habermas.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Nope. It's your twisted view of Christianity and its scholars that's the problem - not Habermas.

Christianity has some excellent scholars. The authors you listed are not among them. They are intelligent people who misuse reason and write a lot of pop fiction.

 

[Spartan]

Christianity has some excellent scholars. The scholars you listed are not among them.

Sorry, I don't buy into your faulty analysis.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Sorry, I don't buy into your faulty analysis.

Of course you don't.

 

[Spartan]

Of course you don't.

The resurrection is the crux of Christianity.

Show me one specific example where Habermas is wrong about the Resurrection? Just one - your BEST ONE example. And cite your evidence why Habermas is wrong.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

@Spartan
Let me make clear that when I say "scholar" I mean someone of the caliber of CS Lewis, and believe me, even CS Lewis had his mental blocks.

The resurrection is the crux of Christianity.

Show me one specific example where Habermas is wrong about the Resurrection? Just one - your BEST ONE example. And cite your evidence why Habermas is wrong.

How about you give me what you think is his best argument and I'll tell you why it is insufficient.

 

[Spartan]

@Spartan
Let me make clear that when I say "scholar" I mean someone of the caliber of CS Lewis, and believe me, even CS Lewis had his mental blocks.

How about you give me what you think is his best argument and I'll tell you why it is insufficient.

So you don't have anything. I thought with your put-down of Habermas that you'd have at least one example to show me. Well let me know when you get one.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

So you don't have anything. I thought with your put-down of Habermas that you'd have at least one example to show me. Well let me know when you get one.

So you don't want to respond. Scared of being demolished. It figures.

 

[Spartan]

Christianity has some excellent scholars. The authors you listed are not among them. They are intelligent people who misuse reason and write a lot of pop fiction.

That's horse manure. Just shows how sophomoric your understanding of scholarship is.

 

[Spartan]

So you don't want to respond. Scared of being demolished. It figures.

I'm a two tour Vietnam Veteran and I'm supposed to be scared of your antichrist theology? ROTFLOL! In your dreams.

There's is a principle, though, about feeding the folly of those who refuse to learn or acknowledge the truths presented to them. And I'm tired of feeding your folly. Go find somebody else to waste their time with.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I see Prophecy is a verifiable resource that can be used by a a person for confirmation as to if a Messenger is who they claim to be. I see that Prophecy can just as easily be rejected by those that do not want to consider the Messenger, or if they entertain much doubt in their hearts.

I see that many of the Prophecies that one can use to prove a Messenger, those same prophecies will most likely be reflected in all Messengers and can also be used for all of them. As a result if one negates that a prophecy is reflected in another Messenger, it would be paramount to rejecting it is applicable to one own Prophet.

In saying that, there are prophecies that guide our mind to consider specific events associated to the Messengers.

The Bible is quite amazing as it contains much prophecy and it unfolds in ways we do not consider.

I use this example;

Deuteronomy 33:2 "And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them."

I see this is a great prophecy to show how God sends His Messengers,

Sinai - Reference to the Message of Moses from the Burning Bush

Seir - Reference to Jesus the Christ wandering the wilderness

Mount Paran - Reference the the Message of Muhammad and the Quran

Ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them - Reference to the Bab and Baha'u'llah, never before have tens of thousands of Martyrs fallen in such a short period after the Message had been delivered. Never before has such a Law as given by the Bab been given to make a distinct break with the old Message.

Thus the quandary is given above. For me all Prophecy is clearly shown to prove the Messengers. Others will not see it that way.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Thank you for finally giving us what you see in life.

Finding the beauty in all things is not an easy journey, many will ridicule such an endeavour.

The Bible prepared us for this quandary;

Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things"

It becomes a choice, a state of mind to know all life has meaning outside of what we see in the Material world. It is all given so we can truly know Love.

Regards Tony

No Tony, don't pretend that there's not ugly things going on in the world. Like what beauty did you see in the pictures of the Grand Bahamas after the hurricane hovered there for a whole day? You know there's going to be dead people buried in there. How about an oil tanker that runs aground and is spewing oil into the ocean? No Tony, I know you can't ignore those things and probably don't. So how to you see it? Do you always put a positive spin on things? Do you always see the beauty in all things. Or, do human and natural disasters cause you pain?

 

[CG Didymus]

I see Prophecy is a verifiable resource that can be used by a a person for confirmation as to if a Messenger is who they claim to be. I see that Prophecy can just as easily be rejected by those that do not want to consider the Messenger, or if they entertain much doubt in their hearts.

I see that many of the Prophecies that one can use to prove a Messenger, those same prophecies will most likely be reflected in all Messengers and can also be used for all of them. As a result if one negates that a prophecy is reflected in another Messenger, it would be paramount to rejecting it is applicable to one own Prophet.

In saying that, there are prophecies that guide our mind to consider specific events associated to the Messengers.

The Bible is quite amazing as it contains much prophecy and it unfolds in ways we do not consider.

I use this example;

Deuteronomy 33:2 "And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them."

I see this is a great prophecy to show how God sends His Messengers,

Sinai - Reference to the Message of Moses from the Burning Bush

Seir - Reference to Jesus the Christ wandering the wilderness

Mount Paran - Reference the the Message of Muhammad and the Quran

Ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them - Reference to the Bab and Baha'u'llah, never before have tens of thousands of Martyrs fallen in such a short period after the Message had been delivered. Never before has such a Law as given by the Bab been given to make a distinct break with the old Message.

Thus the quandary is given above. For me all Prophecy is clearly shown to prove the Messengers. Others will not see it that way.

Regards Tony

And how is that not taking a verse out of context and making it an "after the fact" prophecy? Here is a little more of Deut. 33:

This is the blessing that Moses, the man of God, pronounced upon the Israelites before his death. 2He said:

“The LORD came from Sinai

and dawned upon usa from Seir;

He shone forth from Mount Paran

and came with myriads of holy ones,

with flaming fire at His right hand.b

3Surely You love the people;

all the holy ones are in Your hand,

and they sit down at Your feet;c

each receives Your words—

4the law that Moses gave us,

the possession of the assembly of Jacob.

5So the LORD became King in Jeshurund

when the leaders of the people gathered,

together with the tribes of Israel.

So Tony, go on with your interpretation. How does the rest of this tie in with your interpretation? Especially that thing about the Lord becoming King of Jeshurund. What does that allude to?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No Tony, don't pretend that there's not ugly things going on in the world. Like what beauty did you see in the pictures of the Grand Bahamas after the hurricane hovered there for a whole day? You know there's going to be dead people buried in there. How about an oil tanker that runs aground and is spewing oil into the ocean? No Tony, I know you can't ignore those things and probably don't. So how to you see it? Do you always put a positive spin on things? Do you always see the beauty in all things. Or, do human and natural disasters cause you pain?

The only thing I can change is myself CG. That is a full time effort, The rest is life and other peoples choices.

I can face nature and all it gives. If nature takes away, then what can I do but to be positive and start again.

I can face people and all they offer. If they take away, I can appeal to the authorities, I can appeal to their sense of justice, I can accept the actions and move on, then show by example how people could consider life should be lived.

Joy and sadness are part of this life, I can embrace them and see that life has a higher aim.

Hope you are well and happy CG. I wish you always well. Regards Tony