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Atheists: If God existed…

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Well it sounds like you have a worthy "opponent."
Everyone is worthy in my eyes but they are not my opponent. They are just people I like talking to, some more than others. :rolleyes:
Some Hindus are very universal minded. They see religions as more of a buffet than separate meals. So when they see a new religion they assume they can just take a bite, so to speak.
Baha'is are also universal minded but that does not mean all religions can fit together.
As Jesus said, you cannot put old wine in new wine sacs because they will burst.
I largely sympathize with universalism, only because that's the sect I grew up in.
So you are not in it now?
Empathy is a good trait. But like all things, it should be a balance.
That's true... I have to stop feeling sorry for these tenants who don't pay the rent. :(
I'm the same. I tend to pal around with atheists far more than my Hindu cohorts. Question everything, that's my motto. Suffering has a tendency to shape us, perhaps more than we would like to admit.
I also question everything so just because I settled upon a religion does not mean there is not a lot to learn. Life is a constant journey.
Yes, suffering shapes us, the question is what shape we become, a good shape or a bad shape. :eek:
Mate you're talking to a Western born Hindu. I have all sorts of sloppy even insulting labels thrown at me all the time. It's honestly not worth the trouble to be bothered by it. Causes too much anger and detrimentally affects one's mental wellbeing.
So you get guff from Christians too? That's too bad. I hardly ever mention that I am a Baha'i in "real life", only on forums, so I do not get much guff.
The older Hindus (at least the ones I know) have this sort of aloof nature when it comes to their beliefs. They simply don't care what other people think or say to them. They just do what makes them happy.
I like that approach. I try to apply it in my day to day life.
That is a good approach because it does not matter what people think as long as you are living according to your own values and treating other people respectfully.
I think you're putting up a wall. You say it's ludicrous to expect forensic evidence for an ethereal being (God.) And I personally agree with you. But if one is coming from the position of an atheist, that is the evidence that will often satisfy the criteria they're using. It does not matter what we personally think. That's what's being asked. And though I doubt a God would care, it's not that unreasonable to ask a deity for forensic evidence of it's existence in exchange for belief. It just happens to be a strictly human one.
They can ask but they won't get any so that is why I say what I do, I don't want them to get their hopes up. ;)
Creation, as you call it, is simply proof that life exists. Anything else is our own supposition. I know that seems like I'm bashing theism, but I'm not. I'm just saying, for theists, there's a lot of interpretation going on. I tend to run in a lot of pretentious artsy/philosophical circles, so I like that about theism. I'm just saying, at the end of the day, when everything is said and done, it really does come down to a personal faith, rather than hard scientific evidence. I don't think that's an unfair statement.
I agree, and i do not think creation is evidence of God either.
All religious faith is a personal faith, rather than hard scientific evidence.
Oh, buddy. Devil's advocate. It's easy to disprove Jesus. Just point to David Copperfield and ask if you really think he can actually fly. Parlor tricks, easy to pass off as miracles to people of the era. Either you were a messenger of God or burned at the stake for witchcraft. Water to wine, slight of hand.
Resurrection, hearsay by the devastated grieving. Making the blind see and the invalid walk, crowd plants in on the scheme. I'm not suggesting that you should not view Jesus as a messenger of God. We have always incorporated Lord Jesus into our religious rituals. In fact, most of my family are Christian here. (Albeit very liberal.) Most of my family in the UK are Catholic. Rest are of course Hindu of some flavour. I'm just saying, don't be too cocky. One person's miracle is another's scam.
I never implied I believe everything attributed to Jesus in the NT, but I do believe He was a Messenger of God, and an important one at that.
I don't think that's fair. Some people just have different ways of thinking. Some favour philosophy, others hard logic and math. If we are created, then that's the way God wants it, I guess.
I don't think it is a matter of fairness or what we want, just a matter of bring realistic. Religion is not science or vice versa. They can be in harmony but they have a different scope and they serve different purposes.
I'll agree that science can sometimes be a bit "cold." It's literally just hard data, really. But it's reasonable for a human, who has used science to teach them about literally the world around them, to ask a God for some scientific evidence of its existence. Because that's how they think.
They can ask God for anything they want but that does not mean they are going to get it. God is not a short order cook. :rolleyes:
You assume that religions stand the test of time due to an influence by God. Perhaps you're right. But I contend that religion endures because humans are very tenacious creatures who will protect their belief in sacredness to the bitter end..
You raise a very good point I had not thought of. I think the reason these older religions have withstood the test of time is because of humans being unwilling to give them up, not because of God. I think God wants us all to move along the road. Don't get me going or you will get the full treatment. :D
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
But I don't know why people keep expecting ridiculous things from God.
Well, they say "God is omnipotent so God can do anything" which really translates thus:
"God is omnipotent so God should do what I want Him to do," which is ludicrous, because an omnipotent God only does what it wants to do, not what we want it to do. :rolleyes:

This is logic 101 stuff.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
shmogie,
Unjustified TO YOU. Who said that you are the one who decides where the bar is to be placed ?

It just means you can't feel, taste, smell, hear, and see god. Christianity says faith. Faith is believing without seeing.

Don't need to get defensive. It is what it is.

What you demand in the matter has no bearing on me. How I judge the issue, what evidence I decide is applicable, what alleged evidence I reject, is totally and completely subject to my discernment.
Ok....

Everything about Christianity is individual and personal. Of course there are group meetings and the Church is composed of individuals acting collectively.

Yes. Religion is personal. Each person comes to their conclusions about God differently. Regardless, it's a product of culture and language. Some more new age view and others more traditional. But it is what it is.

Nevertheless, most major issues within the faith are dealt with by the individual

Yes. Don't know why many Christians have axes to grind. We are all on spiritual journey.

You seem to think that I must prove something to you, I don´t need to prove anything to you. I must prove, or reject anything for myself.

Must not talking to me?


I am the judge, the jury, and the prosecutor and defense counsel.

Who Christ? Okay...

You know the message, you have rejected it, which is totally your right. The time for any believer to try and prove the message to you has pass

How does knowing and believing this help you spiritually?

It's useless to us since we don't believe but how does this help you? How does Christ shine through you by this?

Christ did not demand that a large group of people gather together and give a thumbs up or thumbs down on His teachings, His ultimate purpose, His existence, He does not crave your approval or validation.

Okay... Must not be talking to me?

So these unending discussions as to whether God exists, or not, is a waste of time.

Well, I took a break from RF because it felt like a waste if time. I'd probably do it again since I got to focus on school not people judging others as a means of spiritual duty.

There are no rules of evidence, no way to value the evidence. everybody just throws stuff and hopes it sticks to the wall. What to me is a major piece of evidence has little evidentiary value to you.

There are different criterias for different subjects. So, evidence for Christian is personal experience. Evidence two and two is four can be seen by repetition and observable fact.

One isn't wrong and the other right. They just have their place. Don't mix them and you'll be fine.

No believer ever becomes an atheist, no atheist ever becomes a believer based upon these discussions,

Yes. It takes a long process for one to go from Christianity to lack of belief. Usually one already has lack of belief but the influence, judging, and pressure of Christianity makes it hard for the person to follow their heart.

Usually people who come to god have a reflective process.y observation it's usually a revelation of sorts. RF talk is fun but if you don't have patience to get to know people, that's all it is.

I personally are weary of them and very rarely participate in them.

Shrugs. Even Christ ate with his accusor.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Everyone is worthy in my eyes but they are not my opponent. They are just people I like talking to, some more than others. :rolleyes:
Lol sounds like me with my old retail customers.

Baha'is are also universal minded but that does not mean all religions can fit together.
As Jesus said, you cannot put old wine in new wine sacs because they will burst.
Indeed. Some universalists just collect deities though.

So you are not in it now?
Well I am, technically. You don't so much leave as you do other things. I still attend Temple occasionally, during festivals for the free food.
More lazy and inactive than an ex member. I don't think we even have the concept of an ex member. People just do their own thing.

That's true... I have to stop feeling sorry for these tenants who don't pay the rent. :(
Unless they have a very valid reason, kick out the freeloaders.

I also question everything so just because I settled upon a religion does not mean there is not a lot to learn. Life is a constant journey.
Yes, suffering shapes us, the question is what shape we become, a good shape or a bad shape. :eek:
Indeed.

So you get guff from Christians too? That's too bad. I hardly ever mention that I am a Baha'i in "real life", only on forums, so I do not get much guff.
I refuse to debate religion or politics in real life. Too much hassle lol

That is a good approach because it does not matter what people think as long as you are living according to your own values and treating other people respectfully.
Exactly.

They can ask but they won't get any so that is why I say what I do, I don't want them to get their hopes up. ;)
Still, it's an unsatisfactory answer for such people, regardless.

I never implied I believe everything attributed to Jesus in the NT, but I do believe He was a Messenger of God, and an important one at that.
Regardless, people will argue against Jesus' attributed skills and miracles. Because that's usually what comes up from Christians. And Atheists will respond to that.

I don't think it is a matter of fairness or what we want, just a matter of bring realistic. Religion is not science or vice versa. They can be in harmony but they have a different scope and they serve different purposes.
I know. But you know, that isn't always helpful in specific debates.

They can ask God for anything they want but that does not mean they are going to get it. God is not a short order cook. :rolleyes:
So he's just aloof then?

You raise a very good point I had not thought of. I think the reason these older religions have withstood the test of time is because of humans being unwilling to give them up, not because of God. I think God wants us all to move along the road. Don't get me going or you will get the full treatment. :D
Uh oh. The flood gates are a opening ;)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
It has never been about punishment. Justice has never been the issue. Is your demand for justice hiding the hate you feel for others? You must reach for the Higher Level where the only thing that really matters will be the results.
I hope we can agree to disagree. I believe that Justice is as important as love, maybe even more important. Without justice, there can be no love.

2: O SON OF SPIRIT! The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 3-4

Being kind to a liar, deceiver or thief does him no favors because he will only make him think his acts are acceptable and he will just continue in his way. This is not love.

I do not hate anyone just because I think that punishment is sometimes necessary. I believe that the structure of world stability and order hath been reared upon, and will continue to be sustained by, the twin pillars of reward and punishment, as Baha'u'llah said, and I believe it because it makes sense, not just because He said it.
God will abandon no one. God will never condemn, hate or fry the kids. God will lead them all to Greatness. There is no need to hate those who choose hard lessons for themselves. I say copy God. Point them in the right direction with love and kindness.
Unfortunately love and kindness does not work on everyone. Some people are pure evil, as I am finding out the hard way after I rented my house to a two time Level II sex offender only later to find out he is going to try to sue me for damages which are based on bogus claims. Still this is how our justice system works, he has the right to do this if he has money to pay an attorney.
You are right. People can choose some very hard lessons for themselves. Unconditional Love does not rescue nor prevent the lessons that bring Understanding.
I think you are living in a dream world if you think that tenant will learn any lessons from what he is doing. The evidence shows that people like him are repeat offenders.

I cannot agree that God is All-Loving all the time. God has wrath when it is deserved, as that is in accordance with justice. Mercy must be tempered by justice.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Well I am, technically. You don't so much leave as you do other things. I still attend Temple occasionally, during festivals for the free food.
I am technically a Baha'i but I do not attend any of their activities, not even for free food. :rolleyes:
I am just barely treading water so I hate parties and happy people talking about their children and their normal lives. :(
Unless they have a very valid reason, kick out the freeloaders.
Their reasons are always valid, to them. :rolleyes:
Then I just get another non-paying tenant, and the beat goes on.
The one tenant that paid in full has now moved out and he is trying to sue me...
Wanna buy some houses?
Still, it's an unsatisfactory answer for such people, regardless.
Don't I know it. But I don't have any other honest answers... :rolleyes:
So he's just aloof then?
Yeah, God is pretty darned aloof. ;)
Uh oh. The flood gates are a opening ;)
Not yet, but don't say I did not warn you. ;)
 
So, like some kind of Demiurge of Matter-Consciousness?

Never heard quite your view before tbh, it's....different...

Thank you. I hope to do a book on the subject at some future time, in a fictional work ideally. I'm going to need a break from non-fiction after this year.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
The caveat is that I do not “just believe” that because Baha’u’llah made a claim. I have evidence that He was who He claimed to be. That is what sustains my belief. That is as good as it gets because nobody can ever prove anyone received messages from God.
Okay - and what is this evidence?

We all only need to justify what we believe in our own minds. We cannot justify it to other people, they have to do their own homework, if they care to.

No, I cannot verify that anyone got messages from God, but I do not have to, because I have verified the Messenger, His life, His character, what He did during His mission on earth. I do not expect other people to think the way I do about it, that is just how I reason. We not only have what I just listed, we have Baha’u’llah fulfilling all the Bible prophecies, and these things that happened and places that exist on earth are verifiable. This is as good as it gets for any religion, but obviously it is not good enough for most people. One reason is that they never get out the door past their bias in order to do research. I am a person who likes to do research, as I spent over 15 years in college getting various degrees and I researched many subjects and wrote many papers. Now I write papers on forums. :)
Did it occur to you that perhaps you simply adopted a different bias and that nothing you believe about this messenger is actually true?

Just asking if that's something you've considered as a possibility.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
That's a useful metaphor. Each cell is capable of being reached and communicated with by the collective, the organism. If I want to reach a sensory neuron such as the temperature receptors on my skin, I send it a message that it can receive - a neuronal stimulus. If I want to "speak" to a leukocyte, I do so with a foreign antigen, which it will engulf if it is a macrophage, or elucidate antigen-specific antibodies if it is a B-lymphocyte.
This in no way equates to "speaking to a cell". And the point is that the cell cannot grasp the whole body within which it resides, and from which it gains it's nature, sustenance and purpose. It is not within the cell's capacity. Just as it is not within a human's capacity to grasp the ultimate source of our nature, sustenance, and purpose. Nothing is being "hidden" from us. We are simply not equipped to grasp the whole truth.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
The Mind of God is unknowable because that is part of God’s intrinsic nature, but the Will of God (what God wants for humanity) is what comes from God’s Mind to a Manifestation of God (Messenger) so that can be made known to humans via scriptures.
You’re still defining an impenetrable barrier of an unknowable God so whatever you believe about what people say and write, by definition you can’t know it came from the “Mind of God”.

I understand why that is problematic and I would be lost if I did not just stick to one religion I believe was revealed by God to Baha’’ullah, who wrote His own scriptures. The older religions are not authentic and we cannot even know who wrote the scriptures.
You can’t ignore anything other than your own chosen faith though. There are countless other individuals and writings, including those even more recent that your own, all of which claim to be the word of God (or a direct alternative to God). Nothing makes yours any more (or less) legitimate than any others.

It is my belief that the scriptures are only one way to know that the religion was from God.
That is an irrational belief though. Note that I wouldn’t have stated as much if you hadn’t made this a thread about evidence and proof but that is the angle you chose. :cool:

There is also the Person of the Messenger and everything that surrounds His mission on earth, the history of His religion. All this constitutes evidence that can be researched in the case of Baha’u’llah, since it is recent history and it has been chronicled.

There is other evidence outside the religion, other people who wrote about it, but most of them became Baha’is as the result of their research.
Evidence of what exactly though? It can’t be evidence for the existence of God as you define him because you define him as unknowable. We have to all too common issue of believers asserting that they have evidence without first offering a concrete and internally consistent hypothesis. Any difficult questions, gaps or apparent inconsistencies are dismissed with the “unknowable” aspect. I don’t think you can have it both ways. You either have evidence or you have faith. The latter is entirely personal though, only the former can be legitimately presented to others.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Evidence of what exactly though? It can’t be evidence for the existence of God as you define him because you define him as unknowable. We have to all too common issue of believers asserting that they have evidence without first offering a concrete and internally consistent hypothesis. Any difficult questions, gaps or apparent inconsistencies are dismissed with the “unknowable” aspect. I don’t think you can have it both ways. You either have evidence or you have faith. The latter is entirely personal though, only the former can be legitimately presented to others.
It's all "evidence"; subjective, personal, or otherwise. The problem is in the goal of universal conviction. It's very difficult to convince someone else of something using only your personal, subjective evidence. As they would have to be willing to adopt your assertions on faith, and live by them for some amount of time, to attain enough similar personal, subjective evidence to accept your convictions (if that's even possible for them). And unless someone wants or needs to accept your conclusions, they aren't going to do that. And there is little real reason for them to do so.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Whereas it is true that people can be deceived it is not logical to conclude that therefore all people are deceived. One has to look at the author of the religion, the Messenger, and try to figure out if He could have a personal motive for deception. If not the only other possibilities are that He was deluded or He really got messages from God.

Unless one believes that a person is not human, being some special being, perhaps a 'messenger', then we all are prone to deceptions arising from how our minds have evolved and operate - as much in the past or more so than today. So one has to essentially see such 'messengers' as being special, which then causes another set of difficulties, just as much as postulating some divine source in the first place. It's more down to acceptance (or gullibility perhaps) in my view. Accepting some things that go against what we know about reality.

All that conflict was caused by humans since we have free will. God and the Messengers have nothing to do with it.

And no one anticipated the trouble these beliefs might cause - and still do cause? If this was so, then as some have said before, any divine source must be rather cruel - knowing the horrors that have been committed in the name of religion. A bit like passing the buck to me. No other way of passing some message on? Or is God not all-knowing omni- etc.?

It is illogical to say that because some religions have resulted in this it is the fault of the Messengers. Again, when humans are involved anything is possible, so unless a religion has some way to prevent humans from corrupting a religion and using it as a means of control, that will happen. The Baha'i Faith has in place what is necessary to prevent that from happening since Baha'u'llah foresaw it.

If a religion does not have in it teachings that are good for us, it should be discarded.

For me it is as much the fault of the believers as of any 'messengers', but as I have pointed out so often, people were just too vulnerable in the past to being deceived (still are) when their knowledge was hardly above the level of all the other creatures that existed around them.

I tend to deal in probabilities - like most I think - since we are just not capable of inspecting and approving or denying every piece of evidence that is placed before us. And the further we go back in time, the more difficult this becomes. For me, it is much more probable that any 'messengers', and where subsequently a religion developed, were well-intentioned thinkers rather than being go-betweens passing on a message from the divine. And any accompanying messages concerning moral behaviour or other things meant to aid a group's survival probably enhanced such. As Dawkins pointed out, it tends to be the best memes that survive.

I think I'm repeating myself. :oops:
 
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HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
It's all "evidence"; subjective, personal, or otherwise. The problem is in the goal of universal conviction. It's very difficult to convince someone else of something using only your personal, subjective evidence.
You’re also evading the key question of “evidence of what?”. In addition to these things, good evidence is repeatable, so other people can easily observe it too. It will still be subject to the limitations of personal perception of course, which is exactly why having multiple people independently assess it is so important. The other reason for needing a defined hypothesis is that there can be difference evidence for (or against) that hypothesis, meaning there is no need to rely exclusively on the singular focus.

As they would have to be willing to adopt your assertions on faith, and live by them for some amount of time, to attain enough similar personal, subjective evidence to accept your convictions (if that's even possible for them). And unless someone wants or needs to accept your conclusions, they aren't going to do that. And there is little real reason for them to do so.
That shouldn’t be necessarily to establish a simple fact of something existing. What an individual believes or not doesn’t make any difference to the facts. In fact it can obviously influence their perception, as you pointed out yourself. If only people who already believe in something can perceive the evidence of it though, doesn’t it seem perfectly plausible that their subjective perceptions are biased and flawed? Can only really smart people see the King’s wonderful new clothes? :cool:

Again, I wouldn’t be making such a strong argument against faith if the thread hadn’t been started as a discussion of evidence and proof. You’re free to believe anything you want to as far as I’m concerned. I’m only going to question you if you present that belief as evidence.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Well, they say "God is omnipotent so God can do anything" which really translates thus:
"God is omnipotent so God should do what I want Him to do," which is ludicrous, because an omnipotent God only does what it wants to do, not what we want it to do. :rolleyes:

This is logic 101 stuff.
God: "I am tired of this universe I made. I don't want to have it around any longer." Poof... there we go all of us.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Trailblazer... didn't you say "The Mind of God is unknowable because that is part of God’s intrinsic nature, but the Will of God (what God wants for humanity) is what comes from God’s Mind to a Manifestation of God (Messenger) so that can be made known to humans via scriptures."?

You do realize that if what you call "the Will of God" comes from the Mind of God and you just defined the Mind of God as unknowable you can't possibly know anything about the "Will of God" right?
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Faith is necessary at first but once one has certitude faith is no longer necessary.

It's like I had to have faith that my husband would not cheat on me but once I had certitude I no longer needed faith.
So I don't need any hidden cameras in the house to collect evidence of what he does while I am at work.


It remains faith while there is no evidence.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
God: "I am tired of this universe I made. I don't want to have it around any longer." Poof... there we go all of us.
Yes, God could easily do that:

“Consider the mercy of God and His gifts. He enjoineth upon you that which shall profit you, though He Himself can well dispense with all creatures. Your evil doings can never harm Us, neither can your good works profit Us. We summon you wholly for the sake of God. To this every man of understanding and insight will testify.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 140
 
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