Jim
Nets of Wonder
@The Reverend Bob What difference does it make, what you’re saying? Why does it matter?
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I assume you are not in fact a clergyman and that the "reverend" part of your handle is not intended seriously.Often we assume that science and religion are at odds with each other, one states that it is based on reason and logic while the other is said to be based on faith and hope. But we often do not see how similar they are in their false promises and claims. We are told both can be used to make the world a better place. We are told by those that hold them true that they are tools which can create a paradise...of course both parties always promised this "paradise" is somewhere in "the future" meanwhile those living in the present suffer under the auspices of both philosophies.
Promises, promises, promises. Both claim to have understanding of our nature, of the nature of the universe and both claim the ability to predict the future. Each claiming to be the truth even though science epitomizes verisimilitude and religion epitomize "faith". Seems to me that both are acts of faith it is just a matter if you want to have faith in verisimilitude or have faith in faith.
Both these philosophies promise us "salvation", people who put their faith in the science community believe that someday science will solve all our problems and someday because of science we will be transported into the stars, while those who believe in religion believe through religious discipline we will be saved and/or enlighten and transported into the Heavens.
There doesn't seem to be much of a difference to me.
How is that "salvation"? What are we supposedly being "saved" from by robotics - or even medicine? After all we all die in the end.I don't know maybe medicine, AI and robotics, sociology and etc and etc. So many disciplines have been claim to offer us hope and promise, that we will be able to solve this or that problem through them. Don't give me that "No one ever says that" line because people say those sort of things all the time. Go to any science news site and you will see many article with "Science promises to X will help us solve Y in the near future" tagline.
Hang on, you are telling us in the first sentence of this very post that climate scientists are telling us every day we will be able to reverse climate change.And yet we have climate scientists telling everyday if we do this, that and the other thing we will be able to reverse climate change. And people believe them. It's not that I don't believe in climate change but I tend to doubt we can somehow reverse it through the magic of technology or any other means. Yet somehow without evidence the belief without any evidence that we can reverse it persists. So I am going ask you: who keeps telling us we can reverse climate change?
Source, please.Doubling the life expectancy in 1st world countries, but your savior has not been that great in the 3rd world, in fact it has often been used to cut their life short.
No, but religions also cannot present potential solutions. Science can.And let us look at our current situation involving the environment, we can't blame religion for that can we?
I never said "science does nothing but good", that's a dishonest strawman - I even said that scientists don't regard science as "perfect", so your retort here is just blatant dishonesty. The point is that science achieves things that are unparalleled by any other means, and that you characterisation of science and the claims it makes were false. Science is humble enough to know its limits and not over-promise. No claims of salvation, no claims that it's perfect. It simply looks at a problem and works to solve it, which has done more reliably than any other methodology in the entire history of humanity.But what tools has humanity used to decimate the environment in which it lives, obviously scientific knowledge and technology. So don't give me that "science does nothing but good" spiel. It doesn't.
Often we assume that science and religion are at odds with each other, one states that it is based on reason and logic while the other is said to be based on faith and hope. But we often do not see how similar they are in their false promises and claims. We are told both can be used to make the world a better place. We are told by those that hold them true that they are tools which can create a paradise...of course both parties always promised this "paradise" is somewhere in "the future" meanwhile those living in the present suffer under the auspices of both philosophies.
Promises, promises, promises. Both claim to have understanding of our nature, of the nature of the universe and both claim the ability to predict the future. Each claiming to be the truth even though science epitomizes verisimilitude and religion epitomize "faith". Seems to me that both are acts of faith it is just a matter if you want to have faith in verisimilitude or have faith in faith.
Both these philosophies promise us "salvation", people who put their faith in the science community believe that someday science will solve all our problems and someday because of science we will be transported into the stars, while those who believe in religion believe through religious discipline we will be saved and/or enlighten and transported into the Heavens.
There doesn't seem to be much of a difference to me.
This is total nonsense. They deal with quite different aspects of human experience and barely overlap. Science has no "message", for a start.Sorry for the generalization, perhaps I should have used the term "Most people" rather than "We". Fact are you cannot reconciled what religion says is true with what science says is true any more that you can reconcile Capitalism and Marxism. Both have similarities but ultimately they oppose each other in their message.
No, those debates simply show that there are some particularly ignorant strands of religion (especially in the US Bible Belt) that cling obstinately to ideas long since given up by most thoughtful religions.But religion often does seriously oppose what science has to say and vice versa. Otherwise you wouldn't be debating Creationism vs Evolution in these forums. The existence of those debates is proof that there is opposition and always will be because both narratives are in opposition to each other. Like Rashomon.
And yet we have climate scientists telling everyday if we do this, that and the other thing we will be able to reverse climate change. And people believe them. It's not that I don't believe in climate change but I tend to doubt we can somehow reverse it through the magic of technology or any other means. Yet somehow without evidence the belief without any evidence that we can reverse it persists. So I am going ask you: who keeps telling us we can reverse climate change?
Yet Stephen Hawkings one of the most respected and eminent voices in the field of science said that we must leave the planet or go extinct
Yet Stephen Hawkings one of the most respected and eminent voices in the field of science said that we must leave the planet or go extinct
And yet we have climate scientists telling everyday if we do this, that and the other thing we will be able to reverse climate change. And people believe them. It's not that I don't believe in climate change but I tend to doubt we can somehow reverse it through the magic of technology or any other means. Yet somehow without evidence the belief without any evidence that we can reverse it persists. So I am going ask you: who keeps telling us we can reverse climate change?
Can science tell me why I prefer cream cheese on my toasted bagel rather than butter? Can religion do the same?
How can science, an objective tool, be arrogant?
That's like saying "Damn math, so arrogant to presume that 2 + 2 = 4!"
I assume you are not in fact a clergyman and that the "reverend" part of your handle is not intended seriously.
So far as I am aware we are not told by either religion or science that they can create a paradise.
How is that "salvation"? What are we supposedly being "saved" from by robotics - or even medicine? After all we all die in the end.
No, I asked you a question, viz. how can the technological advances in the areas you mention be seen as "salvation"?So basically you are saying that their is no one here or anywhere else in the entire internet or world telling us that someday science and technology will someday save us from mass extinction, climate change and disease? Funny because all I had to do is throw a few search terms in Google and I found thousand upon thousand of people and institutions publishing all sorts of webpages telling us that someday science and technology will save us from mass extinction, climate change and disease. Why are you in denial about this?
I didn't mean "salvation" in the theological sense of the term.No, I asked you a question, viz. how can the technological advances in the areas you mention be seen as "salvation"?
In my universe that question is not tantamount to asserting that "their [sic] is no one here or anywhere else in the entire internet or world telling us that someday science and technology will someday save us from mass extinction, climate change and disease". After all, our lunatic asylums are full of people making far-fetched statements. You cannot expect me to know everything that they may say. But perhaps you are better informed than I on what they say?
I didn't mean "salvation" in the theological sense of the term.
I'd say that science would claim to arrive at its conclusions by honest and transparent argument from examinable evidence and repeatable experiment (empiricism and induction) but never claims that its conclusions are absolute statements. Whatever religions do, that doesn't describe it.Often we assume that science and religion are at odds with each other, one states that it is based on reason and logic while the other is said to be based on faith and hope.
I can think of many false promises made by at least the Abrahamic religions. But what's an example or two of a false promise by science? As distinct from mistakes and frauds, whose errors were discovered and addressed by science?But we often do not see how similar they are in their false promises and claims.
Aspects of medicine have made the world a better place. Aspects of physics have brought us electricity, electronics, metallurgy and materials science including plastics, weather forecasting, GPS, informed us of the cosmos and the sub-atomic realms, and so on. But all of those can be good or bad depending on how humans employ them, and science is not so silly as to pretend otherwise.We are told both can be used to make the world a better place.
With respect, you're confusing optimism and optimistic fictions (the Jetsons spring to mind) with promises.We are told by those that hold them true that they are tools which can create a paradise...of course both parties always promised this "paradise" is somewhere in "the future" meanwhile those living in the present suffer under the auspices of both philosophies.
Understanding of human nature is indeed a work in progress, and I don't know about religion but I know science has never made any claim to a complete description of it. The mapping of the brain, and hypotheses and experiments as to the nature and physiology of consciousness, are likewise works in progress, and science is the first to admit there's a long way to go.Promises, promises, promises. Both claim to have understanding of our nature, of the nature of the universe and both claim the ability to predict the future.
Perhaps the place to start would be to familiarize oneself with what each is actually claiming, as distinct from what anyone else says each is actually claiming.Each claiming to be the truth even though science epitomizes verisimilitude and religion epitomize "faith". Seems to me that both are acts of faith it is just a matter if you want to have faith in verisimilitude or have faith in faith.
And further what I just said, please stop confusing science with science fiction.Both these philosophies promise us "salvation", people who put their faith in the science community believe that someday science will solve all our problems and someday because of science we will be transported into the stars