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Science and atheism inconsistent?

ecco

Veteran Member
Sure, it's the same reason that there are over 4000 different words for 'water',

Is there one water, or many waters? How do we know which water is the real one? Is it the liquid one, or the solid one, or the vaporous one? Is it the one called "water", or the one called "aqua"? And if we cannot answer these questions 'objectively', then water must not exist, ... right?

Are you suggesting the concept of God is held in as consistent a manner as water?

Are you sure this is a good comparison for the human construct 'God'??

That seems a stretch, to put it mildly.


To me, it's a lot more than a stretch, Its downright obfuscation.

Are you, PureX, really going to try to sell the story that all gods are really just God in disguise? Did this magical entity of yours disguise itself as Achelous, Aeolus, Aether, Alastor, APOLLO, ARES, Aristae, ... URANUS, ZELUS, Zephyrus, and ZEUS simultaneously?

Do you think it's like the Christian Trinity where every time God wanted to, It just created another part of itself.

Did it do this on its own or did it do it in response to humans needing many different entities to worship? Did your entity kill off versions of itself or did it just tuck each away into a different part of Valhalla when its number of worshippers fell below a critical minimum? Is there like an old folks gods retirement home where the Holy Ghost hangs out with Athena and Nerrivik?

 

ecco

Veteran Member
I do consider the atheist view more rational and logical than that of the traditional theist belief systems based on ancient scripture like Christianity.

Ah, yes, let's disparage the "traditional theist belief systems based on ancient scripture". Out with the old, in with the new. But not too new. Bahai is just right. Like the right porridge.

Atheists, agnostics, and other humanists are often in rebellion against traditional beliefs. If they seek a sense of belonging and community they will often turn to like minded institutions like the UU or Zen Buddhism for a more spiritual approach.

Why do you believe atheists have a need to satisfy some spiritual needs?

Why would atheists seek to satisfy a sense of belonging by turning to "institutions like the UU or Zen Buddhism"? Atheists, wanting to satisfy a sense of belonging would join a bridge club, a drama production, AA, a political party.

Some if not many are loners in rebellion against tradition religious beliefs, and most atheists are often rejected and shunned by their prior peers.

I'm neither rejected nor shunned. I'm not in rebellion. The lack of knowledge about atheists is truly amazing.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Atheism is inconsistent with science, says physicist Marcelo Gleiser

Science doesn't confirm that there are no gods, but it is consistent with that possibility.

But this is a straw man argument of no interest to most atheists, who are also agnostic. This agnostic atheist agrees that to assert as fact that there are no gods is to make an unsupportable claim of knowledge that isn't available to any of us. What this author calls atheism, and what most atheists call gnostic atheism, is not a justifiable position.

And to make that error is not to contradict science, but to make a logical error - a leap of faith.

The flaw of atheism is not what the atheist chooses to believe about the existence of gods. It's choosing to believe it without evidence, reason, or purpose.

There is no flaw in atheism. It is merely the "No" answer to the question of whether one believes in a god or gods. If you ask me if I believe in gods, I'll tell you that I don't. How can one be wrong about that?

For the rational skeptic, since there is no reason to believe in gods, so he doesn't. That is not a choice. The reason and evidence based thinker believes whatever is convincingly demonstrated and fails to believe the rest not as a matter of choice, but because that's how his mind works.

Those who believe things because they want them to be true are faith based thinkers. That's a different kind of mind.

Theism lacks evidence

Therefore, there is no rational reason to believe that gods exist. That's a basic tenet of rational skepticism - all claims should be challenged, and none accepted as true without supporting evidence. Even then, belief is less than 100% certain, that is, has some measure of tentativeness to it, and should be accompanied by open-mindedness, or the willingness to consider new evidence and revise one's belief or degree of belief accordingly.

but it at least can offer a positive purpose.

Religion offers no positive purpose or value to the person whose emotional, intellectual, spiritual, and moral needs can be met without it. The fact that a god belief makes a person feel more complete is not necessarily a good thing. Benefiting from a prosthetic leg is great if you can, but isn't it better not to need one?

And agnosticism lack evidence, but it at least can claim honest skepticism, with an open mind. But atheism can claim none of these. It fails at every criteria.

You are using a definition of atheism that excludes the possibility of simultaneous agnosticism, one most self-identifying atheists reject for just this reason. If you want to argue that gnostic atheism is a logical error, you won't get any disagreement here.

But if you want to discuss agnostic atheism, well, that' really the only rational position one can take. Any other position is faith based.

a scientist is quoted, since atheists always seem to imply that their view is nothing but scientific.

We do? My atheism is nothing but the inevitable result of requiring a reason to believe anything, and having none for believing in gods. That the full extent of it. It is not even a belief about reality, but about what an individual's criteria for belief should be, and whether theism rises to that standard. Science has nothing to do with it.

It's not purely a definition. It's a self-identification. That's huge. That's about a whole worldview, sort of thing, like someone would say they were a Christian.

Atheism is not a worldview just as theism is not a world view. Atheism is the absence of theistic world views like Catholicism or Santeria, leaving room for any of several possible atheistic worldviews. Mine is called secular humanism. Another's might be astrology, which assigns the role theists give to conscious god to unconscious forces emanating from the stars. Another's might be Stalinism. They're all godless worldviews, although only the first is rational and just.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It is these experiences, projected or otherwise sensed internally; feeling, that is the common link among the faithful.

I'd say that what defines the faithful is the willingness to believe insufficiently supported ideas, even ideas contradicted by evidence, such as climate denial and young earth creationism.

Using the quoted passage we could say that he is also implicitly arguing that theism and science are inconsistent. In either case he'd be wrong as far as I can tell.

If theism is defined as any of the supernaturalistic worldviews featuring a god or gods, then theism is not supported by science. In fact, the behavior of the creationists lets us know that they see science as contradicting some of their faith based beliefs, and are tireless in their efforts to attempt to undermine its authority..

I have a cold. I pray to my God to be relieved of my cold. The cold goes away. I have evidence of my God's existence and concern for my well-being for me, ... just as I'd expected.
I have a cold, I don't pray to god for relief because I don't believe that god exists or will relieve me of a cold. My cold runs it's course, but then goes away, ... just as I expected.

Actually, that's one that can be answered by science, since the belief that prayer works is a testable claim. It's been tested. I don't have to tell you what the studies revealed about the power of prayer, do I?

Atheism is a philosophical position that claims God/gods do not exist.

Not to most people that call themselves atheists.

It's remarkable how tenuously many theists hold onto that definition you cited. They're really pretty pointless to talk to if they won't make even a small effort to understand atheists and cooperate with them in discussion. As long as you cling to that definition of atheism, you're not speaking to most atheists. No conclusion derived from an unshared premise will be unsound to the one not sharing your premise, and therefore not useful.

There are billions of theists on this planet, and they remain theists because doing so is 'working for them' in some significant way. Theism is a conceptual paradigm, just like scientific materialism, is. And it's working for the people who embody it or they would seek and accept something that worked better.

Religion serves a need it creates. If you allow people to grow up secular humanists, most will find that they have no need for theistic systems. That's where I find myself.

Just because a worldview brings solace is not a reason to highly regard either that view or that a person needs comforting


* "It is no defense of superstition and pseudoscience to say that it brings solace and comfort to people…If solace and comfort are how we judge the worth of something, then consider that tobacco brings solace and comfort to smokers; alcohol brings it to drinkers; drugs of all kinds bring it to addicts; the fall of cards and the run of horses bring it to gamblers; cruelty and violence bring it to sociopaths. Judge by solace and comfort only and there is no behavior we ought to interfere with." - Isaac Asimov

* "The fact that a believer is happier than a sceptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality." ~George Bernard Shaw

No one cares what evidence you think is "right". They care about what works for them in their experience of living. What works for them is their evidence.

Some people care more about what is true than what is comfortable.

atheism's claim is a negative

What claim does atheism make? The individual atheist is claiming that he hasn't been convinced that gods exist, but I wouldn't call that a claim of atheism.

I am discussing atheism as a philosophical position.

The philosophical position underlying atheism is rational skepticism, or the idea that one should question insufficiently supported claims. Atheism is the result of that belief coupled with insufficient supporting evidence for a god. No additional ideas are derived from that unbelief.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Atheism is a label for a philosophical position, not a group of people. It's the position that has no basis in evidence, effective value, or possibility, leaving only an empty bias (IMO). And you don't seem to be able to refute this.

It has been refuted, but needn't be. These are just your opinions, and they are recorded as such. Atheism needs no evidence, its value is that it leaves room for secular humanism in place of theistic worldviews, and it is very possible that there are no gods. We don't seem to have much role for them. They don't improve any scientific theory.

In my experience, most people genuinely care whether what they believe is true or not and if there are reliable means of discovering either way.

My experience is the opposite. Ask a theist if his religious beliefs were false, would he want to know that.

Second, the position of an atheist (philosophical materialism)

This atheist is agnostic regarding the fundamental nature of reality. Materialism is appealing, but cannot be ruled in or out. Nor can neutral monism.

Perhaps believers should stop trying to tell us what we believe, and ask us instead.

So when I say that the atheist has no evidence, I mean that by the atheist's own conceptual requirement of "objective evidence", he can have no evidence.

The atheist needs no evidence, Nor does the avampirist or the aleprechaunist. It's enough to say to the theist, vampirist, and leprchaunist, "You haven't made your case. I don't believe you."

If by science you mean the prior assumption taken axiomatically that all things have a natural origin and there are no miracles. That assumption is not inherent to the scientific method and so naturalism can be a religious world view in that sense

Naturalism is not a religious view. It's a rational and stunningly successful approach to understanding how physical reality works.

And science does not assume what you imply it assumes.

Furthermore, religious worldviews are notoriously sterile. As indicated, I can't find a use for any of them.

But in the end, we cannot escape ourselves. We ARE always subject to the limitations that come with our being a unique, individual human being. And since those limitations result in our being non-omniscient, the theory that objective evidence = truth is BS. (And so is the theory that subjective experience = truth, of course.)

It's my opinion that people chase their tails worrying about things like objective truth, absolute truth, or ultimate truth - what's really out there independent of our subjective selves. That's not what matters. What matters is how such things affect us. Subjective reality is what we apprehend most immediately, with what preceded it being of interest only insomuch as it allows us to predict and perhaps control those experiences.

All we really need to know is whether holding belief B that some action A will produce desired result D. If that is the case - if doing A reliably results in D, we can call B true, fact, correct, confirmed, knowledge, useful, or any other word that indicates that this idea is a keeper, without troubling ourselves about the ultimate reality underlying those experiences. Contrariwise, if A fails to achieve D, then B is incorrect, and needs to be tweaked or discarded.

God is an uncaused cause with no beginning... why is that a problem

It's not a problem. It's a bare, unevidenced assertion - a religious belief. I have no reason to believe that.

I see no value in a determined non-belief)

Unbelief in useless and harmful ideas is a good thing.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Ah, yes, let's disparage the "traditional theist belief systems based on ancient scripture". Out with the old, in with the new. But not too new. Baha'i is just right. Like the right porridge.

Not the topic and did not reflect anything I have posted in this thread.


Why do you believe atheists have a need to satisfy some spiritual needs?

Some may, and I made no such generalization.

Why would atheists seek to satisfy a sense of belonging by turning to "institutions like the UU or Zen Buddhism"? Atheists, wanting to satisfy a sense of belonging would join a bridge club, a drama production, AA, a political party.

They are human like everyone else. Some do join UU and Zen and know them personally. I made no generalization, and your vindictive sarcasm does not contribute to the dialogue.


I'm neither rejected nor shunned. I'm not in rebellion. The lack of knowledge about atheists is truly amazing.

I made no reference to you as anything.

Please, read my post again and respond to what I said, and not what you think I said.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
We will have to agree to disagree, then. I stand surprised, as a matter of fact.
What do you make of having a symbol to represent your beliefs, if that is not a self-identification with something? It doesn't matter what it is, actually. Symbols represent something meaningful. A simple "lack of beliefs" has no meaning. So, if you can't address the symbol "A", or any of the other identification, then I'll accept you don't recognize the importance of symbols in the way I do understanding their importance in culture through semiotics.
 

Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Science doesn't say the Grand Canyon was not carved by The Great Flood?
Science doesn't say the earth is not 6000 years old?
Science doesn't say the earth is not flat?

Science does say the age of the universe is 13.772 billion years.
Science does say the scablands are the result of ice dams forming and breaching.
Science does say man is the result of Evolution.

It seems science makes absolute statements all the time.
But if you ask a scientist he or she will always say it’s a hypothesis or theory and/or that they are free to change the conclusion with the introduction of new evidence.

Don’t get me wrong. Many of the things you listed are 99.999% true, but the reality is science doesn’t usually deal in absolutes. It’s open minded and willing to accept new evidence and evolve it’s conclusions accordingly.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
So?
Even if (and it's a big if) you can conflate naturalism with philosophical naturalism, you just said 'philosophical naturalists are atheists'.
That hardly seems controversial

Yes. It is not controversial.

I'm just suggesting that it's possible for other people to be atheists too. Like me.

Please elaborate.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
.. Science cannot exclude a god or many gods that one wants to believe in just as different theists cannot prove that other gods or goddesses do or do not exist.

Agreed.

You can be an atheist, pantheist, agnostic, polytheist or any other religious view and still be consistent with science since your beliefs are outside the realm of science.

I agree to the red highlight. But, IMO, many, if not most atheists, will not agree that their understanding is outside of science. That is the point of the OP.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes. It is not controversial.



Please elaborate.

I kinda have already, but to summarise...
I'm a methodological naturalist, not a philosophical one, since I'm allowing room for what I don't know.
I'm an agnostic atheist, rather than a gnostic one to allow room for what I don't know.
I'm an atheist rather than purely agnostic due to what the existing evidence suggests to me.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
It has no identity otherwise.

And while there are those who agree it has no identity, I disagree.
Sorry, that still makes no sense. The post appeared to be a strawman of atheism. For some reason some theists seem to project the sort of belief that they have upon others.
 
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