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Who Has the truth? Who Will Bring World Peace?

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
When we speak of the gene pool in creating the individuals of the human race, what are we seeing now? We see a genetic cess pool.

You wrote that in response my my, "The arc of history has been very encouraging that progress may continue as it has for an indefinite period." How bleak.

Children are not born healthy in this world.

Most are.

More and more children are afflicted with life threatening allergies and varying degrees of autism since all these wonders of very expensive modern medicine came along.

You're talking about all of those children that would have died in childbirth or infancy not too long ago, or died of some infectious disease or congenital cardiac malformation that is no longer a death sentence. Now some have to contend with allergy and autism. Would you prefer that we go back to the past? I don't think you see a difference between the past and present unless it's that the present is worse.

The maladies of the past just got replaced by the maladies of the present

I'll take it.

When I started in the practice of medicine, we had much less control over blood sugar, cholesterol levels, and blood pressure. Today, we have much better therapies, resulting in a lot less morbidity and mortality in those receiving competent care, which includes me. As a result, I have already outlived my grandfather, who died in his fifties from a heart attack. I have a reasonable expectation of making it to my eighties or nineties, and probably from some other type of illness - perhaps pneumonia. Your assessment would likely be that all I did was trade one disease for another.

"I am the star of my own life and as long as I am happy who cares about anyone else.....except perhaps that I might contribute to a charity once in a while to make myself feel like a good person."

This would be insulting if I didn't understand why you think and write such things. Your only fault was allowing yourself to be indoctrinated. After that, the fault lies with your teachers. The evidence contradicts you. I can say with assurance that nobody else reading your words and mine is thinking about me what you are. You've missed by a mile with me, but it's not a problem.

And why was the government shut down for three weeks, disrupting thousands of lives? Did the action justify the the dismay and hardship it caused?

You want my political opinions? The government shut down because of a foolish, unjustified, theatrical stunt by the American president. You probably already know about the showdown over funding for a wall demanded by the president, and refused by the House Democrats.

If people pay their taxes, then they should be able to benefit from their government's actions....not be robbed of their ability to feed their families and pay their mortgages.

No argument here.

Were you affected there in Mexico?

No. We're relatively immune to what goes on in the States. We weren't affected by shutdown, nor by the tax extravaganza given to the rich on the backs of the middle class, nor the placing of a Supreme Court justice with theocratic tendencies, nor election fraud, nor the Environmental Protection Agency's rollbacks on environmental protections, nor the massive layoffs. It was much of the point of leaving there.

It was pretty clear to us early last decade that America was in a state of unstoppable decline, and that we and it were parting ways philosophically. America doesn't represent our values any more. Plus, it's overpriced, it's a terrorist target, it's economy seems vulnerable, its people are divided, and the extreme weather there (but not here) just keeps getting more extreme.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
It is sad you have chosen and used the word cult.

Oh did I mention - 'reacts to the word 'cult', as one of the indicators. (I'm certainly by no means the first to use it. Just reiteration what others have said.)

It's interesting to watch two extreme groups interacting, each claiming superiority.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I've read a lot about Baha'i shunning. Is this the pot calling the kettle black? So many similarities. I'd sure hate to see a person get out of one cult, and step right into another.
The salient difference is that Baha'is do not shun ex-Baha'is. I could drop out right now and no Baha'is would shun me. they would still love me and accept me just as they do now. Only Covenant-breakers are shunned and for good reason. They seek to utterly destroy the Baha'i Faith.

Half truths are not very useful.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
The salient difference is that Baha'is do not shun ex-Baha'is. I could drop out right now and no Baha'is would shun me. they would still love me and accept me just as they do now. Only Covenant-breakers are shunned and for good reason. They seek to utterly destroy the Baha'i Faith.

/QUOTE]

Now that actually depends on the individual, as far as I know. The ex-Baha'is I've talked to certainly said that, and some exJWs have stated it didn't happen to them. So the fact of the matter is that it's an individual choice. I don't have a resource that would allow me to ask 500 of each group, so I don't actually know.

The Bahai leaders most certainly asked people to shun covenant breakers. Heck, I've shunned people ... a member of my church who committed adultery and hurt a personal friend of mine by doing so got shunned. Would you shun a Bahai convicted child molester, or would it be okay, cause he/she is a Bahai?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Now that actually depends on the individual, as far as I know. The ex-Baha'is I've talked to certainly said that, and some exJWs have stated it didn't happen to them. So the fact of the matter is that it's an individual choice. I don't have a resource that would allow me to ask 500 of each group, so I don't actually know.

The Bahai leaders most certainly asked people to shun covenant breakers. Heck, I've shunned people ... a member of my church who committed adultery and hurt a personal friend of mine by doing so got shunned. Would you shun a Bahai convicted child molester, or would it be okay, cause he/she is a Bahai?

Then are you not imputing your sense of Justice into what you think may be the Baha'i way.

No we do not shun people that have broken the law. All people need our Love and that Love includes Covernant breakers.

All one has to do is read how they were treated by Baha'u'llah, Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi. We are also guided to treat them fairly in the life they have chosen.

Regards Tony
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Then are you not imputing your sense of Justice into what you think may be the Baha'i way.

No we do not shun people that have broken the law. All people need our Love and that Love includes Covernant breakers.

All one has to do is read how they were treated by Baha'u'llah, Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi. We are also guided to treat them fairly in the life they have chosen.

Yes, I know your opinion, Tony. But unfortunately for you, I've actually read several more opinions. So if I get the opinion of 10 people, you expect me to believe your opinion, and your opinion alone? That's rather selfish of you. What happened to independent investigation?

Edited ... Baha'i Shunning > Menu - Slander & Shunning - Coercive Methods used in the Baha'i Faith
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes, I know your opinion, Tony. But unfortunately for you, I've actually read several more opinions. So if I get the opinion of 10 people, you expect me to believe your opinion, and your opinion alone? That's rather selfish of you. What happened to independent investigation?

Edited ... Baha'i Shunning > Menu - Slander & Shunning - Coercive Methods used in the Baha'i Faith

I see no unfortunate situtaion for myself, as I am able to and are willing to change myself and look for and ask for the wisdom to do so.

In the end, self examination is the situation we find the hardest to face.

Regards Tony
 

RedhorseWoman

Active Member
That’s great you are involved in charity work.

I have a busy life with a family and work. Still I volunteer my time for free to provide free medical care for those who needed. The Centre is run by Christians but the JWs are never involved.

Each month I attend my cities interfaith council meeting dedicated to promoting tolerance and understanding between faiths. The main Christian denominations are well represented, all except the JWs.

My wife recented volunteered through Red Cross to assist Syrian refugees to relocate in my city. It involved accompanying a family over a six month period when they first arrived. No JWs there either.

In the Baha’i Faith we believe let deeds not words be your adorning. The New Testament is pretty clear too (James 2:14-26). By their fruits Ye shall know them (Matthew 7:16). Charity is one of the five pillars of Islam.

No, JWs would never get involved in any sort of interfaith projects. Anything involving "interfaith" would mean that they, the true Christians, were joining together with those who serve Satan (albeit unconsciously.) JWs are taught that the best "charity" they could ever perform is by preaching to people about the JW hope and bringing them into the JW religion. They believe that any attempts at charity in this system are limited at best and that such charity, in reality, is not beneficial.

In fact, there are often remarks made in the literature or Watchtower-prepared talks that refer to "rice Christians" who worship at a church merely to get handouts, and they feel very proud that they do not do such things. Giving a person Watchtower literature and starting a home Bible study (JW indoctrination session) with them is the BEST sort of charitable work that could EVER be done.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I see no unfortunate situtaion for myself, as I am able to and are willing to change myself and look for and ask for the wisdom to do so.

In the end, self examination is the situation we find the hardest to face.

We? When, as a neutral observer, I see members of two different groups accusing the other group of doing the same thing, they're doing, where exactly is this self-examination you speak of? Clearly neither group is looking in a mirror much. But then I shouldn't really expect that, it's way too much to ask.

Just read the title of the thread would predict that. I also gave my opinion on that somewhere in here.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
This is another choice we have. Its like looking only at and judging the blemishes, on an otherwise wonderful body and mind.

I personally now choose not to, but that is something I had to change in myself as well.

So you're now admitting that you yourself did shunning, and changed for the better, yet a minute ago you boldly claimed Baha's don't shun?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Now that actually depends on the individual, as far as I know. The ex-Baha'is I've talked to certainly said that, and some exJWs have stated it didn't happen to them. So the fact of the matter is that it's an individual choice. I don't have a resource that would allow me to ask 500 of each group, so I don't actually know.
I certainly cannot speak for the experiences of Baha'is who simply dropped out but were not deemed Covenant-breakers and I do not even know if there is a official Baha'i position on how we are to treat them. I do not know how other Baha'is would treat them, since I am not active in my Bahai community and haven't been for many years.
The Bahai leaders most certainly asked people to shun covenant breakers. Heck, I've shunned people ... a member of my church who committed adultery and hurt a personal friend of mine by doing so got shunned. Would you shun a Bahai convicted child molester, or would it be okay, cause he/she is a Bahai?
I don't know, I rented my house to a two time Level II sex offender because I wanted to give him a "second chance" but he made my life hell after he moved in by lying and threatening me and trying to manipulate me. He finally moved out but he has an attorney and they are making false accusations of damages he incurred at my house and he is trying to sue me for thousands of dollars. He gives the word evil a whole new definition.

My insurance company is now involved because I have liability but I do not know what will happen because there are "exceptions" for some of the damages he is claiming in my policy. Since last October when this tenant pulled this stunt I have been afraid to re-rent my house but I will have to rent it soon because I cannot leave it vacant indefinitely. He is not the first tenant I have given a break and they all tried to take advantage of me. I think I have finally learned my lesson about giving people second chances. I sure hope so. :rolleyes:

Nothing is "just okay" because someone is a Baha'i as I do not consider Baha'is superior to anyone else. I respect people based upon their morals, including how they treat other people and how they live their lives. That has nothing to do with what they believe. I would respect an atheist who lived a moral life and cared about other people and the world more than a Baha'i who did not practice what they preached.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I certainly cannot speak for the experiences of Baha'is who simply dropped out but were not deemed Covenant-breakers and I do not even know if there is a official Baha'i position on how we are to treat them. I do not know how other Baha'is would treat them, since I am not active in my Bahai community and haven't been for many years.

I don't know, I rented my house to a two time Level II sex offender because I wanted to give him a "second chance" but he made my life hell after he moved in by lying and threatening me and trying to manipulate me. He finally moved out but he has an attorney and they are making false accusations of damages he incurred at my house and he is trying to sue me for thousands of dollars. He gives the word evil a whole new definition.

My insurance company is now involved because I have liability but I do not know what will happen because there are "exceptions" for some of the damages he is claiming in my policy. Since last October when this tenant pulled this stunt I have been afraid to re-rent my house but I will have to rent it soon because I cannot leave it vacant indefinitely. He is not the first tenant I have given a break and they all tried to take advantage of me. I think I have finally learned my lesson about giving people second chances. I sure hope so. :rolleyes:

Nothing is "just okay" because someone is a Baha'i as I do not consider Baha'is superior to anyone else. I respect people based upon their morals, including how they treat other people and how they live their lives. That has nothing to do with what they believe. I would respect an atheist who lived a moral life and cared about other people and the world more than a Baha'i who did not practice what they preached.

I'm sorry you rented your house to such a person. I screen those who rent here, and wouldn't have done that. Thanks for not making sweeping generalisations about the goodness of all members of your faith.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
How do you know that any of that is actually true? Mind you, I am not saying it isn't, but you have to look at the source and their motivation.... Motivation is everything.

If anyone associated with the Baha'i Faith really did those things I would want to know about it, but that would not change my belief in Baha'u'llah; it would just change my respect for the Baha'is and the institutions of the Baha'i Faith.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I'm sorry you rented your house to such a person. I screen those who rent here, and wouldn't have done that.
Thanks... I screened him thoroughly but I still let him through the screen. At first I blamed myself for being so naive but I know that I am not responsible for his bad behavior, so it is not my fault. He is a con man, plain and simple. All the e-mails that went back and forth between me and him, which are extensive, are adequate proof of the con he was trying, but unfortunately I do not know if a jury would see it that way. People can be really taken in by con-men.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Oh did I mention - 'reacts to the word 'cult', as one of the indicators. (I'm certainly by no means the first to use it. Just reiteration what others have said.)

It's interesting to watch two extreme groups interacting, each claiming superiority.

Perhaps when the Baha’is and JWs shed off some negative karma we can become enlightened like some Hindus (the ones that aren’t in cults) and within a few lifetimes will be ready to escape the cycle of rebirth and achieve Moksha?
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
That's a new one for me. I never knew that JW think the UN is the beast of Revelation????

Wow. That's weird. I can't get my head around it.
Beasts in the Bible, when detailing human activities — and used symbolically of course — like in Daniel 7 & 8, are always political entities.

Even currently, nations use animals to represent themselves.... I’m sure you’ve heard of the U.S. eagle? The Russian bear? The Chinese dragon? Etc.

Funny how Biblical and secular descriptions of governments merge that way.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Beasts in the Bible, when detailing human activities — and used symbolically of course — like in Daniel 7 & 8, are always political entities.

Even currently, nations use animals to represent themselves.... I’m sure you’ve heard of the U.S. eagle? The Russian bear? The Chinese dragon? Etc.

Funny how Biblical and secular descriptions of governments merge that way.

The problem with Daniel 7 and 8 is that Daniel was never in Babylon.. He wrote the Book of Daniel in 165-68 BC during the Maccabean Revolt and during the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes.. he called himself "god manifest" and introduced the Abomination of Desolation.

I know its confusing, but it helps to know what a "prophet" was in Israel and what a prophet was NOT..
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
From the other thread....

Sorry Adrian...at the risk of going off topic again (and what topic doesn't?) I will respond here so as not to get in trouble with the OP again.....:rolleyes:



I never said we did Adrian. You forget that in our ministry, we speak to people of all faiths every day.....we call on them for the same reason that Jesus sent his disciples out....to offer them a message of hope in a seemingly hopeless world. People are so sick of the religious hypocrisy and confusion. We call to give them an opportunity to hear what we believe is the real Christian message and to make sense of this awful world we live in. They can then compare it to what they have been taught and make their own decisions. As someone who was once a part of Christendom, I can tell my own story. We are not out to convert the world.....no one can come to Jesus unless they are drawn by the Father anyway. (John 6:44) So we leave that to him. We are the messengers who can then become teachers.

Jesus called out the religious leaders of Judaism for their corrupted misapplication of scripture.....we do too.
If people don't believe us, well then as Jesus said, we are to "shake the dust off our feet" and move on. But so many people are responding to our message...its very heartening. They are not joining a religion, but learning the truth about so many things. They want to please God and therefore want to become part of his global spiritual family.



Absolutely! Everyone has the right of choice as free willed beings. But as Paul said....

Romans 10:13-15....
"For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” 14 However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? 15 How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out?..."

Who are sending out preachers into "all the inhabited earth" with the good news of God's Kingdom? (Matthew 24:14).....none of Christendom's churches have ever come to me with the good news about anything.
LDS used to call, but they do not come to my town anymore. I had some nice discussions with them.



Prayers for world peace are useless unless that peace comes about by the introduction of God's Kingdom.
Whose prayers is God listening to? (Isaiah 1:15) How much blood is on the hands of those praying?

To me "interfaith" is sharing in religious fellowship with others who do not share your beliefs....and who may very well weaken them.

According to the apostle John, those who tried to bring in ideas from outside of Christianity were to be avoided......

"Everyone who pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. The one who does remain in this teaching is the one who has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. 11 For the one who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works." (2 John 9-11)
IIRC, in other threads, you've claimed that things have gotten consistently worse with the world over time in a trend that continues to today... right?

If that's the case, then there's a correlation: the more JWs there are, the further from world peace we get.

Do you agree?
 
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