If you say you don't need God

[TransmutingSoul]

Marvelously esoteric.

It could be seen that way, I would say from a Baha'i viewpoint it is understood by many.

So emotion rather than reason? Or is that unfair?

As a Baha'i we must base our investigation of Faith in reason. We must weigh all claims, all things and balance them in science. To me it is more then reasonable to expect there is more to life than what our outward senses can detect. Thus when Baha'u'llah shows us this is so, in many various ways, then it is reasonable to conclude Baha'u'llah is telling the Truth. This is the same standard I would use with all Messengers.

Regards Tony

 

[Remté]

When doctors told me I was going to die in a few days, I called upon God. It was not the God from the Quran.
So according to your words you acknowledge my God. Thanks, nice to hear from a Muslim.

That doesn't make any sense..

 

[loverofhumanity]

It is your right to hold such a belief. But there are two very significant elements of that belief that must be kept in mind.

1. It is indeed your belief. Meaning that it is your matter to do as you want, without necessarily making any sense to anyone else.

2. You are here defining God as the sustainer of existence. That is a very specific role, and declaring that it exists implies nothing whatsoever about the existence or meaning of other roles that are often associated with that word.

Most significantly, it does not tell us anything whatsoever about whether belief in such a concept is at all a good thing. For all we know, your God as defined above might resent worship - if it can even have any awareness of what humans might do or pursue, that is.

Come to think of it, technically you are describing the fundamental forces of physics by the name "God". Or you might as well be, far as consequences go. Or the time-space continuum. Or several other conceivable ideas.




Do you realize that in saying so you are giving up on discussing truth as such and declaring that you prefer to use your certainty as a substitute?

That is exactly what you are saying, with another wording.



Trouble is, you have just told us to disregard what you believe in if we are to pursue truth. Therefore your claim here has been voided of any meaning... by you.

And that is a good thing, because otherwise you would have to support your claim, which would involve showing that there is some chance of being "hoodwinked into atheism" and also that atheism is somehow innacurate.

That would be problematic. But it is also unnecessary, now that you gave up on attempting to make a meaningful claim.

The only remaining problem is figuring out why a meaningless claim is worth proposing.

Actually, you probably should not make it, since it might mislead others who are not forewarned to disregard it.



Well, that is what the Qur'an says, anyway. But as you just admitted, such a line of arguing is one that you gave up on trying to justify.

I happen to think that you did well in giving up, because as arguments go this Quranic view is utterly disastrous. It is disrespectful to both atheism and theism, apparently understanding neither. It is uninformed and insulting towards atheists as people, arrongantly calling us liars. And then it lies manipulatively, claiming out of thin air that atheists "need sincerity and humility".

Given that, is it any wonder that Islaam has to resort to threats of death to keep atheists quiet?



Who are those "others" and what do you mean about those others "feeling the same"? The same as you? Or as each other?

Yes I followed my own research not what other people or religionists said. I decided to go according to my own investigation and not be influenced by anyone or Baha’is so for a time I was highly critical of everyone especially Baha’is and not accepting at face value anything blindly.

When I realised I was wrong I admitted it honestly. I think I was more adamant in proving them wrong and so opposition was my main aim to disprove there was a God.

For many years this was my sole agenda, to prove that God does not exist, was mere myth and imagination, wishful thinking created by weak minded people.

But the Words of Baha’u’llah are very powerful and were able to convince me I was in error. It took many years of opposing religionists before I discovered God exists.

That was my journey.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I have something for you to think about and I would like to hear your thoughts on it.

It is from the commentary of the Quran translated into english by Yusuf Ali Abdullah and it goes like this:

"Your calling upon him in times of danger shows that in the depths of your hearts you feel his need."

You're making one pretty large assumption there, friend. Might I ask why?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Then I doubt you have ever been in real trouble.

I've been in immediate threat of death due to violence a couple of times, once via machete, once via stoning. Does that count?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I have something for you to think about and I would like to hear your thoughts on it.

It is from the commentary of the Quran translated into english by Yusuf Ali Abdullah and it goes like this:

"Your calling upon him in times of danger shows that in the depths of your hearts you feel his need."

This doesn't really mean anything. If you can imagine an atheistic culture where the term "God" isn't even used, I doubt people would call their name in moments of stress or danger. It's less to do with an actual need for any kind of God than it is simply a deeply-embedded linguistic tick that people have been primed (possibly for hundreds of years) to yell out at moments of shock or extreme stress.

Besides, I tend to say "God" a lot less than I say "Jesus" in such situations, so such phenomenon, by your logic, dictates only the inherent truth of the Christian religion rather than any other.

 

[stvdv]

"I have something for you to think about and I would like to hear your thoughts on it.
It is from the commentary of the Quran translated into english by Yusuf Ali Abdullah and it goes like this:
Your calling upon him in times of danger shows that in the depths of your hearts you feel his need."

When doctors told me I was going to die in a few days, I called upon God. It was not the God from the Quran.
So according to your words you acknowledge my God. Thanks, nice to hear from a Muslim.

That doesn't make any sense..

It does make a lot of sense to me. It's just 1+1=2
I did my prayer, so I felt the need of His help ... in the depths of my heart (indicating it's the real deal)
But I am not surprised that you don't like to see it that way.

 

[stvdv]

Is not "God" part of your psychology, your mentation, a concept rather than a real being with objective existence?
I ask because I've never found a definition of "God" appropriate to a real being.

Nicely put. I never even thought about God "being a real being with objective existence". God being omnipresent would not leave much place for us.

 

[stvdv]

I have something for you to think about and I would like to hear your thoughts on it.
It is from the commentary of the Quran translated into english by Yusuf Ali Abdullah and it goes like this:
"Your calling upon him in times of danger shows that in the depths of your hearts you feel his need."

I'm among those who didn't feel any need to call out to anybody or anything.
When I had my heart attack, I figured I'd just go back to before all this began.

I do like this thread. And I do like @Nowhere Man's reply. Safe to say we have proof that some people really don't feel His need in times of danger.

 

[stvdv]

That is based on no facts at all. It is a fallacy, the only time I, as an atheist, only use god's name is as a curse.
If in trouble I don't pray, I try to do something useful, call an ambulance, etc.

Then I doubt you have ever been in real trouble.

I've been in immediate threat of death due to violence a couple of times, once via machete, once via stoning. Does that count?

That definitely counts.

Thanks for sharing. That is enough proof to me that "not all pray to God when in trouble"

 

[Jumi]

This doesn't really mean anything. If you can imagine an atheistic culture where the term "God" isn't even used, I doubt people would call their name in moments of stress or danger. It's less to do with an actual need for any kind of God than it is simply a deeply-embedded linguistic tick that people have been primed (possibly for hundreds of years) to yell out at moments of shock or extreme stress.

In my country people stub their toes they often use the curse word for one of the old pagan god before our conversion to Christianity. Not that anyone believes in that god of thunder anymore, well except very few pagans.

 

[stvdv]

I have something for you to think about and I would like to hear your thoughts on it.
It is from the commentary of the Quran translated into english by Yusuf Ali Abdullah and it goes like this:
"Your calling upon him in times of danger shows that in the depths of your hearts you feel his need."

That is based on no facts at all. It is a fallacy, the only time I, as an atheist, only use god's name is as a curse.
If in trouble I don't pray, I try to do something useful, call an ambulance, etc.

I think (after reading a few times) that Yusuf only says "Those who call upon Him in times of danger, those people feel His need in their heart"
So the line seems not a fallacy to me; makes kind of sense. My first thought was he meant that it's true for all people. But does he say that??

 

[stvdv]

Not personally. But if you expect me to pray for God if I ever do, I assure you that you will be frustrated.
I am very atheistic.

I couldn´t care less as to what you do.

I do care.

I like it when other people are happy. Whatever makes others happy. Whether it is "praying" or "not praying". Just do what makes you happy

 

[Curious George]

I think (after reading a few times) that Yusuf only says "Those who call upon Him in times of danger, those people feel His need in their heart"
So the line seems not a fallacy to me; makes kind of sense. My first thought was he meant that it's true for all people. But does he say that??

The use of "you" is a generalization. That could be interpreted either way. So this was a valid point until the OP responded with "Then I doubt you have ever been in real trouble" to @Altfish 's response of not praying while in trouble.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Be so or be not. That has nothing to do with what I said.

It has everything to do with what you said. You claim, effectively, that people who reject your god when they can carefully and rationally reflect will accept your god when they're at their least rational.

If I'm stranded at the side of the road with no tools and a car that won't start, I might try whacking the starter motor or the fuel pump with a big rock to get them to work... but this is not any sort of sign that I know deep down that a rock is the best car repair tool.

 

[LuisDantas]

No but you can tell me what is contradictory to science in the Quran.

Sorry. Not wasting my time doing your homework. On a well known path no less.

 

[LuisDantas]

I doubt it. A prayer is here but a request.

Then you truly have no clue about what an atheist is.

 

[LuisDantas]

They didn't have a word God in their vocabularly perhaps. That is all.

That is an arrogant and explicitly ill informed claim at a single time. Impressive.

 

[LuisDantas]

Disregard what exactly?

Your claims.

They are unsupported, presumptuous and quite wrong and dangerous.

It does not help that you presume to have the right to expect those who point out that you are wrong to have the duty to disprove your claims.

Not so. Your claim, your homework.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

@Remté - I think the message of this thread is that you're having serious trouble relating to non-theistic points of view.

As hard as it may be to understand, realize that not everybody shares your attitudes toward God.

If you'd like to try building an understanding, we can help you with that, but I think it would be foolish of you to keep insisting that you know other people's minds better than they do.