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If you say you don't need God

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
This has nothing to do with "my" God.

It seems to me that the very existence of this thread is entirely based on your conception of God, which is considerably specific and remarkably close to that of the Qur'an.

I don't believe atheism is rational per ce.
Why would that even matter? Does it make any difference whether atheism (or for that matter theism, even specifically monotheism or Qur'anic monotheism) is rational?

After all, that is little more than a specific trait. A very personal, almost supremely personal trait that has no rational significance and nearly nil religious significance as well.

In short, no one is truly supposed to care whether anyone else is atheistic, monotheistic or something else, except perhaps when particularly close personal relationships are involved.

Or, of course, when people entitle themselves to judge other people's stances. Particularly when political or military power becomes entangled with that bad choice of behavior.

Why do you think a person is least rational in times of danger?
Stress is not conductive to rational thinking. That has been amply demonstrated.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Something interesting I came across today that's relevant to the discussion: Faith after an Earthquake: A Longitudinal Study of Religion and Perceived Health before and after the 2011 Christchurch New Zealand Earthquake

Abstract
On 22 February 2011, Christchurch New Zealand (population 367,700) experienced a devastating earthquake, causing extensive damage and killing one hundred and eighty-five people. The earthquake and aftershocks occurred between the 2009 and 2011 waves of a longitudinal probability sample conducted in New Zealand, enabling us to examine how a natural disaster of this magnitude affected deeply held commitments and global ratings of personal health, depending on earthquake exposure. We first investigated whether the earthquake-affected were more likely to believe in God. Consistent with the Religious Comfort Hypothesis, religious faith increased among the earthquake-affected, despite an overall decline in religious faith elsewhere. This result offers the first population-level demonstration that secular people turn to religion at times of natural crisis. We then examined whether religious affiliation was associated with differences in subjective ratings of personal health. We found no evidence for superior buffering from having religious faith. Among those affected by the earthquake, however, a loss of faith was associated with significant subjective health declines. Those who lost faith elsewhere in the country did not experience similar health declines. Our findings suggest that religious conversion after a natural disaster is unlikely to improve subjective well-being, yet upholding faith might be an important step on the road to recovery.​
 

youknowme

Whatever you want me to be.
Nothing. One can doubt God, believe in God, pray and curse God all at the same time.

I think if you doubt God in times of hardships you never really had much faith in the first place. You have only shown that are willing to have faith in God only when it is easy. Faith without risk is easy.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Sounds like a good way to go.

The issue here for me is faith. I have varying degrees of faith in particular people, and in particular ideas, which are based partly on culture but mostly on experience. Perhaps a difference between us is the answer to the question, 'What kind of experience can validate or falsify a particular faith?'

For each person I see they will reach the goal we all search for, in their own way. As each of us have our own Nature and Nurture to contend with.

For me it was a world view. I guess in my heart was a realisation that no person should exault themselves over another. I had also thought that if there was a God, it would be a God for all.

When I stumbled on a Message that I was in now way looking for, that confirmed these dormant views, but gave them a firm base in reasoning, it took me on a path of search.

Faith has to be based on a search. Christ gives it in a parable of where to plant your seed.

I wish you well on your journey. Faith can indeed move mountains. Those mountains are intrenched mindsets that lead us away from our purpose. Science calls it a change or shift in our 'Frame of Reference'. I see this is the goal of all Gods Messengers, that is to change the mindset that predudices and a growing disunity has created in our collective mind. We are warned before it all falls apart.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes, a person is least rational in times of danger. Rational though takes more time than instinctual emotional response. That's why we have the emotional response in times of danger: it gets the job done faster.

Something interesting I came across today that's relevant to the discussion: Faith after an Earthquake: A Longitudinal Study of Religion and Perceived Health before and after the 2011 Christchurch New Zealand Earthquake

Abstract
On 22 February 2011, Christchurch New Zealand (population 367,700) experienced a devastating earthquake, causing extensive damage and killing one hundred and eighty-five people. The earthquake and aftershocks occurred between the 2009 and 2011 waves of a longitudinal probability sample conducted in New Zealand, enabling us to examine how a natural disaster of this magnitude affected deeply held commitments and global ratings of personal health, depending on earthquake exposure. We first investigated whether the earthquake-affected were more likely to believe in God. Consistent with the Religious Comfort Hypothesis, religious faith increased among the earthquake-affected, despite an overall decline in religious faith elsewhere. This result offers the first population-level demonstration that secular people turn to religion at times of natural crisis. We then examined whether religious affiliation was associated with differences in subjective ratings of personal health. We found no evidence for superior buffering from having religious faith. Among those affected by the earthquake, however, a loss of faith was associated with significant subjective health declines. Those who lost faith elsewhere in the country did not experience similar health declines. Our findings suggest that religious conversion after a natural disaster is unlikely to improve subjective well-being, yet upholding faith might be an important step on the road to recovery.​
Which could prove what Faith says, that we are made in the image of God, with all the virtues a potential in us.

It could be nature and nurture have surpressd our true selves and our compassion for life and others is more evident in times of great stress. A compassion we could choose to live with each and every day, with Faith that is the purpose of life.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It seems to me that the very existence of this thread is entirely based on your conception of God, which is considerably specific and remarkably close to that of the Qur'an

I would say remarkably the same as the God of all Faiths.

It is us humans that divide the source of life.

Regards Tony
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
For each person I see they will reach the goal we all search for, in their own way. As each of us have our own Nature and Nurture to contend with.

For me it was a world view. I guess in my heart was a realisation that no person should exault themselves over another. I had also thought that if there was a God, it would be a God for all.

When I stumbled on a Message that I was in now way looking for, that confirmed these dormant views, but gave them a firm base in reasoning, it took me on a path of search.

Faith has to be based on a search. Christ gives it in a parable of where to plant your seed.

I wish you well on your journey. Faith can indeed move mountains. Those mountains are intrenched mindsets that lead us away from our purpose. Science calls it a change or shift in our 'Frame of Reference'. I see this is the goal of all Gods Messengers, that is to change the mindset that predudices and a growing disunity has created in our collective mind. We are warned before it all falls apart.

Regards Tony
Thanks for your reply and your good wishes, which I reciprocate.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
In my country people stub their toes they often use the curse word for one of the old pagan god before our conversion to Christianity. Not that anyone believes in that god of thunder anymore, well except very few pagans.

Yup. This makes perfect sense, in a very human way.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I have something for you to think about and I would like to hear your thoughts on it.

It is from the commentary of the Quran translated into english by Yusuf Ali Abdullah and it goes like this:

"Your calling upon him in times of danger shows that in the depths of your hearts you feel his need."

I might say things like "ow my god!", but I'm not calling out any deities when I do that.

Instead, I'm just making use of the english language and using a cultural expression to express amazement or alike.
 

Baroodi

Active Member
An ECG is a test, not a cure, I've not long had one. The ambulance was an example not a remedy for everything.
And what does that anecdote prove? Sack the doctors, stop medicine? Rely on god instead?
If I had a choice... prayer or medical treatment...I know which I would choose.

(Tie it and and ask God Help)
A nomad came to prophet Mohammed asking him: Shall I tie my She-camel or just leave it untied and God will keep it for me? He told him: Tie it and ask God to keep it for you.
When we are sick we go to the doctor even If it is a cancer but at the same time have to supplicate to God to get the cure (Tie it and ask God help). God provides his blessing on our efforts. When May was giving birth to Jesus under a palm tree beside a river, God ask her to shake the trunk of the tree and hence fresh dates will fall upon her. (And shake the Trunk of the palm, it will drop upon you fresh dates) Quran: Chapter Mary; verse 25.
definitely she was unable to transmit any movement to the trunk specially in that situation of having labor pain, but God wants her to do the minimum effort to get the great gain. Nothing in this life can be gotten while relaxing idle.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
(Tie it and and ask God Help)
A nomad came to prophet Mohammed asking him: Shall I tie my She-camel or just leave it untied and God will keep it for me? He told him: Tie it and ask God to keep it for you.
When we are sick we go to the doctor even If it is a cancer but at the same time have to supplicate to God to get the cure (Tie it and ask God help). God provides his blessing on our efforts.
It's funny how the blessings God decides to provide align so closely with medical science.

Take diabetes: before insulin was discovered, people would do all they could to treat diabetes, but almost all of the time, God would choose to withhold his blessings and let diabetics dies.

Then, almost overnight, as soon as insulin treatment started being used, God became much more charitable to diabetics.

Why do you think God changed his mind like this?
 

Remté

Active Member
It's funny how the blessings God decides to provide align so closely with medical science.

Take diabetes: before insulin was discovered, people would do all they could to treat diabetes, but almost all of the time, God would choose to withhold his blessings and let diabetics dies.

Then, almost overnight, as soon as insulin treatment started being used, God became much more charitable to diabetics.

Why do you think God changed his mind like this?
What makes you think he changed his mind?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I have something for you to think about and I would like to hear your thoughts on it.

It is from the commentary of the Quran translated into english by Yusuf Ali Abdullah and it goes like this:

"Your calling upon him in times of danger shows that in the depths of your hearts you feel his need."

How is that so?

A lot of us call on family members. Some are thinking of survival moreso than god. (When I was in brain surgery, I wasn't thinking of theology). Unless one already has a belief and it helps them, how would one call for god?

There are so many gods. How is it narrowed down to allah?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I would say remarkably the same as the God of all Faiths.

It is us humans that divide the source of life.

Regards Tony
Sorry, I just don't think that stands to scrutinity nor is it very realistic.

There is no "God of all Faiths". And if there were, it would be of utterly minor significance.

There core of faith is the heart's stance towards reality.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Sorry, I just don't think that stands to scrutinity nor is it very realistic.

There is no "God of all Faiths". And if there were, it would be of utterly minor significance.

There core of faith is the heart's stance towards reality.

The heart is indeed a light of mind.

The reality we are all one, made of the same substance, is the fundamental thought to establish our unity.

Regards Tony.
 
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