Trinity and Salvation

[David1967]

LOL... when Jesus said "fire", did he mean between husband and wife?

Dude, you have no idea!!!! Hell hath no fury like a Pentecostal woman scorned. Uh oh. She just walked in. I'm going to tell her you said that.

 

[Kenny]

I think Schizophrenic is the correct term.

Yes... I talk to my soul often.

"Oh SOUL, AND ALL THAT IS WITHIN ME, BLESS THE NAME OF THE LORD"! Imagine that, speaking to yourself.

My body speaks to me every once in a while saying "Hey Ken, use this muscle more often and it won't be so sore".

Just imagine God doing something that in your mind wasn't possible. DEFINITELY, it can't be that. It's too difficult.

 

[Kenny]

Dude, you have no idea!!!! Hell hath no fury like a Pentecostal woman scorned. Uh oh. She just walked in. I'm going to tell her you said that.

You have just been upgraded to "METIS HUMOR" status! Well done!

 

[metis]

Well, we all have flesh which sins like a drunken sailor. Jesus said there is no profit in the flesh (John 6:63) and Paul said there is no good thing in it (Rom 7:18). Our salvation is not dependent on our actions but in our belief in Jesus' actions. He bore our sins and left them in the grave where they belong.

Rom 10:9: "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

That's all we have to do to insure our eternal life. I understand how fantastic that sounds. It's certainly not man's idea on how things are, but there it is nonetheless. Very simple grammatically. Not much room for "interpretation." It simply says what it means and means what it says. Jesus is a complete savior, he left nothing undone.

I'm quite confident we will talk in heaven. Looking forward to meeting you!

I thank you so much for the above, but I'm sorry to say that I do have to take issue with the part I underlined because I do believe that the gospel requires action on our part as well.

There's a non-biblical story that goes like this: Jesus and the Twelve were walking along a muddy path right after a rain, and they ran across a man with his donkey stuck in the mud, and he was yanking on it and cussing up a storm to try and get it out. Jesus asked the man, "Can I help you", and the man said "Yes, thank you and they yanked the donkey out together.

A bit further down the path Jesus and the Twelve came upon a man who also had his donkey stuck in the mud, and the man was on the side of the road praying "Jesus, please remove my donkey from the mud", but Jesus just shook his head and kept on walking.

The apostles were confused, and asked Jesus why did he help the first man but not the second? Jesus replied "Because the second man wanted me to do all the work whereas the first man was willing to help me out".

The gospel is more than just a set of beliefs-- it's a call to action, imo. One cannot just be a Christian and then ignore what is taught and what we are expected to do. IOW, it's gotta be a lifestyle and not just a set of beliefs, imo.

I pray that you agree?

 

[metis]

It's OK Metis. When we get to Heaven those who think they know a lot, those who know they don't, along with those who have a lot of questions will be seated in a HUGE auditorium called "What I Really Meant, Christianity 101). Save me a seat.

Do you mind if there's wires attached to it? I want to make sure I'm first in line for food.

 

[Kenny]

I thank you so much for the above, but I'm sorry to say that I do have to take issue with the part I underlined because I do believe that the gospel requires action on our part as well.

There's a non-biblical story that goes like this: Jesus and the Twelve were walking along a muddy path right after a rain, and they ran across a man with his donkey stuck in the mud, and he was yanking on it and cussing up a storm to try and get it out. Jesus asked the man, "Can I help you", and the man said "Yes, thank you and they yanked the donkey out together.

A bit further down the path Jesus and the Twelve came upon a man who also had his donkey stuck in the mud, and the man was on the side of the road praying "Jesus, please remove my donkey from the mud", but Jesus just shook his head and kept on walking.

The apostles were confused, and asked Jesus why did he help the first man but not the second? Jesus replied "Because the second man wanted me to do all the work whereas the first man was willing to help me out".

The gospel is more than just a set of beliefs-- it's a call to action, imo. One cannot just be a Christian and then ignore what is taught and what we are expected to do. IOW, it's gotta be a lifestyle and not just a set of beliefs, imo.

I pray that you agree?

I think we are all saying the same thing but with just a little different perspective or looking at a different angle, Yes works are part of confessing Jesus as Lord because if you didn't, He isn't Lord. But IMV, it's more like the chicken that produces the egg... (forgive me Lord), maybe better the horse pulling a cart of works. You get saved and in response you give the works of love. If you say you are saved (lips only) and then you don't help the poor, visit those in prison and minister to the sick and preach the gospel that it is all talk. It's the heart that makes the difference.

 

[David1967]

Gospels of John and Luke, and the Epistles. (Assuming that John was written in the first century, another debate)

I know where you're coming from. The problem is in defining what exactly the Trinity is. (That in itself is a denominational divider) Is Jesus God? Is Jesus ,Son of God, separate but not equal? Is He separate but equal? Are they all One? What a subject.

 

[David1967]

You have just been upgraded to "METIS HUMOR" status! Well done!

I'm not yet worthy of so lofty a praise.

 

[metis]

I think we are all saying the same thing but with just a little different perspective or looking at a different angle, Yes works are part of confessing Jesus as Lord because if you didn't, He isn't Lord. But IMV, it's more like the chicken that produces the egg... (forgive me Lord), maybe better the horse pulling a cart of works. You get saved and in response you give the works of love. If you say you are saved (lips only) and then you don't help the poor, visit those in prison and minister to the sick and preach the gospel that it is all talk. It's the heart that makes the difference.

It's the last line that I love so much in the above.

BTW, I'm far less concerned about being "saved" than I am trying to do that which is right. When I converted back into the Church, I told the priest that I will always have questions because that's my nature, but I can commit myself to trying to do the best I can.

And the priest agree that I should be committed.

 

[metis]

BTW, a former priest at our church had a series of mini-stories, and one of them relates to the above:

Joe missed going to heaven by just 18 inches!: the distance from his head to his heart.

 

[Kenny]

I know where you're coming from. The problem is in defining what exactly the Trinity is. (That in itself is a denominational divider) Is Jesus God? Is Jesus ,Son of God, separate but not equal? Is He separate but equal? Are they all One? What a subject.

Yes... I took a course once. It ended up being circular between Trinity and just the Father.

I find the makeup of man to be the easiest way to see the possibility. Spirit, soul and body. Varying in importance and yet all equally important if you want to be a person.

Distinctions but not divisible.

 

[Kenny]

It's the last line that I love so much in the above.

BTW, I'm far less concerned about being "saved" than I am trying to do that which is right. When I converted back into the Church, I told the priest that I will always have questions because that's my nature, but I can commit myself to trying to do the best I can.

And the priest agree that I should be committed.

So appreciate your heart.

 

[W3bcrowf3r]

Leaving aside for a moment the argument of whether of not there is a trinity, I would like to address a central aspect of the question. One of the most damaging aspects about the trinity debate, one to which many sincere Trinitarian Christians adhere, is that if someone does not believe in the trinity they are not saved.

Salvation is the most important thing in life. Indeed, it determines one's eternal state. Why would God not make a requirement to believe in the trinity as plain as the nose on one's face? Why would God make it necessary to "read between the lines" in order be eternally saved? I can't imagine an earthly father doing something like that, let alone our heavenly father. If it were that important why would God not have used the word "trinity" at least once somewhere in the scriptures? Why do we not find even once the phrase, "Jesus is God" somewhere in the scriptures? Why would He make it so darn cryptic?

To those who insist belief in the trinity is a requirement for salvation, I challenge anyone to find an actual scripture that explicitly says one must believe in the trinity to be saved. In fact I will allow the introduction of any extraneous document written before the 5th century to prove the requirement of belief in the trinity to be saved, even though I personally take 100% of my doctrine from the scriptures and nothing but the scriptures. Now I understand that there are extraneous church documents that expound on the trinity, but I've not seen any that actually make belief in the trinity a requirement for salvation. At least the early trinitarians were tolerant of those who did not believe in the trinity, not condemning them to hell, as is the common teaching in the orthodox churches these days.

So let's see some scriptures that make belief in the trinity a requirement for salvation.

I do not think that most people know what salvation really means. Believing in Salvation is, believing in Grace. Everyone needs the Grace of God, we can't buy our way into Heaven. So if you believe in Grace, and have works of Grace. Then you should know that nobody knows everything, and not everyone has a perfect faith.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It's the last line that I love so much in the above.

BTW, I'm far less concerned about being "saved" than I am trying to do that which is right. When I converted back into the Church, I told the priest that I will always have questions because that's my nature, but I can commit myself to trying to do the best I can.

And the priest agree that I should be committed.

Did you convert back recently?

I can't remember but I think I remember (I know) you said you weren't (a practicing) christian...agnostic?

Congrads.

 

[W3bcrowf3r]

Yes... I took a course once. It ended up being circular between Trinity and just the Father.

I find the makeup of man to be the easiest way to see the possibility. Spirit, soul and body. Varying in importance and yet all equally important if you want to be a person.

Distinctions but not divisible.

Try to read the New Testament in the original Greek. And ask God to protect you, increase your knowledge and grant you Hes understanding.

The Trinity is just a fabrication, which they are injecting so hard in the translations these days. I can see how they changed verses and made Jesus Christ appear as a god or God, but that wasn't the case in the Greek original.

Example: In English translations, they say that in Hebrews, God is calling Jesus God when He is talking about Hes Throne. In fact the Greek says that God said to Jesus that God is Hes Throne, from ages to ages.
Another: The famous John 1. In the Greek original it's talking about how Gods Word is Divine, and that God created everything. But English translations change the word 'logos' into 'Jesus'..
Etc.

But most people do not fcking care. They don't care! And it makes me sad, and angry. They don't care. All they care about is what their environment says, and what the majority says and how they are viewed in the eyes of others. They don't care about what God and Jesus Christ really say! They depend so much on the lies of the Anti Christ that they will defend hes lies blindly!

 

[InChrist]

I don't think one necessarily must believe in the trinity to be saved and I'm not sure who those Trinitarian Christians are who say it is a requirement for salvation. All I know is my own experience. Before being saved I did not accept the trinity and was extremely opposed to the doctrine. Immediately after trusting Jesus Christ as my Savior I just knew Jesus was God and the triune nature of God was true, it all made sense.
I don't think believing in the trinity is required for salvation, but I do think that after salvation in Christ Jesus one will come to believe and know the reality concerning the eternal triune nature of the Godhead.

 

[InChrist]

Try to read the New Testament in the original Greek. And ask God to protect you, increase your knowledge and grant you Hes understanding.

The Trinity is just a fabrication, which they are injecting so hard in the translations these days. I can see how they changed verses and made Jesus Christ appear as a god or God, but that wasn't the case in the Greek original.

Example: In English translations, they say that in Hebrews, God is calling Jesus God when He is talking about Hes Throne. In fact the Greek says that God said to Jesus that God is Hes Throne, from ages to ages.
Another: The famous John 1. In the Greek original it's talking about how Gods Word is Divine, and that God created everything. But English translations change the word 'logos' into 'Jesus'..
Etc.

But most people do not fcking care. They don't care! And it makes me sad, and angry. They don't care. All they care about is what their environment says, and what the majority says and how they are viewed in the eyes of others. They don't care about what God and Jesus Christ really say! They depend so much on the lies of the Anti Christ that they will defend hes lies blindly!

I care. I care because only God can save. Only God can be the Savior and His word verifies this throughout. It matters and has eternal implications, so I care.

 

[Kenny]

Try to read the New Testament in the original Greek. And ask God to protect you, increase your knowledge and grant you Hes understanding.

The Trinity is just a fabrication,

I do use the Greek... that is why "I know"

 

[rrobs]

I thank you so much for the above, but I'm sorry to say that I do have to take issue with the part I underlined because I do believe that the gospel requires action on our part as well.

There's a non-biblical story that goes like this: Jesus and the Twelve were walking along a muddy path right after a rain, and they ran across a man with his donkey stuck in the mud, and he was yanking on it and cussing up a storm to try and get it out. Jesus asked the man, "Can I help you", and the man said "Yes, thank you and they yanked the donkey out together.

A bit further down the path Jesus and the Twelve came upon a man who also had his donkey stuck in the mud, and the man was on the side of the road praying "Jesus, please remove my donkey from the mud", but Jesus just shook his head and kept on walking.

The apostles were confused, and asked Jesus why did he help the first man but not the second? Jesus replied "Because the second man wanted me to do all the work whereas the first man was willing to help me out".

The gospel is more than just a set of beliefs-- it's a call to action, imo. One cannot just be a Christian and then ignore what is taught and what we are expected to do. IOW, it's gotta be a lifestyle and not just a set of beliefs, imo.

I pray that you agree?

How many sins we get before it's too late? I'd hate to go over the limit. I'm sure you would too. Do you ever wonder if you yourself have gone over the limit? Seems like someone would go nuts worrying about that all the time.

I might point out that all of the things Jesus said to the Apostles was before his death and resurrection. Wouldn't you think things changed a bit after that? If so what was it that changed? Or did nothing change? Are we still under the law? I might remind you the scriptures say the law made no man perfect (Rom 3:20), whereas belief in Jesus did (Heb 10:14).

One last thing, check out the first 3 verses in Galatians chapter 3. How do you take those?

 

[rrobs]

I do not think that most people know what salvation really means. Believing in Salvation is, believing in Grace. Everyone needs the Grace of God, we can't buy our way into Heaven. So if you believe in Grace, and have works of Grace. Then you should know that nobody knows everything, and not everyone has a perfect faith.

I just replied to someone who still thinks salvation comes by following the law, so not everybody is clued in to the meaning of grace. I asked that brother how many sins we get before it's too late. I think that to those who believe in works that is a very relevant question.

I'm very aware that nobody knows everything. I've admitted to my limited knowledge in several posts, seeing through a dark glass and all that. But when it comes to salvation, Romans 10:9 is pretty straight forward.