Trinity and Salvation

[rrobs]

Well, if the false prophet Paul says it, it must be true. On the other hand, Yeshua said "false prophets will arise" but to be "saved", one must "endure to the end" (Matthew 24:11-13). The best description of the false prophets is found in (Matthew 7:15-23), whereas on that day, with respect to the wolves in sheep's clothing (Mt 7:15) many will say, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons, and in your name perform many miracles'? (Matthew 7:23). I think you have latched onto the seed of the tares, which according to Matthew 7:13, that "broad" "way" leads to "destruction".

OK, we'll disregard Paul. So find somewhere in the OT or Gospels where belief in the trinity is required for salvation. That was my original question.

 

[Kenny]

Ah, but I think you probably have a far better chance than I because I have WAY too many questions and too few answers. But what I do understand is "love one another", and I try and do my best to live that out but all too often fall into temptation.

It's OK Metis. When we get to Heaven those who think they know a lot, those who know they don't, along with those who have a lot of questions will be seated in a HUGE auditorium called "What I Really Meant, Christianity 101). Save me a seat.

 

[Kenny]

Well that's new to me. It's just as unloving to condemn someone for believing Jesus is God as the other way around. I can't imagine telling anybody where they will spend eternity. God looks on the heart, not outward appearance (1 Sam 16:7).

You and I have had different experiences. I've been called a murderer, a whore monger, a child of the devil, a heretic, and more. I find your attitude to be rare. But you give me hope. Thanks!

Yes, I always find it amusing when people want to sit on the Judgment Seat, ( a single occupancy chair), and tell people where they are going. I think an angel tried that once.

But, on the bright side, the spoke evil of Jesus too calling him a son of the devil, so you are in good company! Just rejoice and be glad that you are reviled for your reward is in Heaven and not on earth.

 

[rrobs]

Ah, but I think you probably have a far better chance than I because I have WAY too many questions and too few answers. But what I do understand is "love one another", and I try and do my best to live that out but all too often fall into temptation.

Thanks. I do believe Jesus said something like, "love fulfills the whole law."

 

[rrobs]

It's OK Metis. When we get to Heaven those who think they know a lot, those who know they don't, along with those who have a lot of questions will be seated in a HUGE auditorium called "What I Really Meant, Christianity 101). Save me a seat.

Me too!

 

[Kenny]

You can blame the Devil if you want, but we (people) are pretty good at screwing things up on our own too. But my point for example; take Jesus teachings. For the most part, fairly simple. Love one another, don't be self righteously judgemental of others, etc. And what happens? People look instead at some letters of Paul and decide to build denominations around speaking in tongues and women not being allowed to wear makeup, jewelry, or even cut their hair. What's up with that? Jesus challenged the legalism of the Pharisees and folks created a new kind of legalism just as bad if not worse.

You don't have to read Paul's letters to build denominations. Jewish faith also has many sects. Hey, The Baptists, celebrating what John the Baptist did... not even in Paul's letters.

But I love speaking in tongues. I don't have to, you don't have to, but people get to if they want.

 

[David1967]

Clearly, there is no mention there of belief in the trinity being a requirement for salvation.

Of course, there isn't some requirement to believe in the Trinity. The concept of the Trinity didn't come along till a few hundred years after Christ. Interesting subject nonetheless, but it sure takes away from a conversation if one side is saying believe just like this or go to hell. Is Jesus the same as God? Well, He prayed to the Father, rebuked one who called Him good by saying that none were good but God. He said that His power and authority came from God.

 

[Kenny]

This is all I know about getting saved,

Rom 10:9: "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

HEY, WAIT A MINUTE, that's what my Bible says too!

 

[Kenny]

Of course, there isn't some requirement to believe in the Trinity. The concept of the Trinity didn't come along till a few hundred years after Christ. I

No... the concept started in the 1st century.

 

[David1967]

But I love speaking in tongues. I don't have to, you don't have to, but people get to if they want.

Hey Ken! I was simply using that as an example of an issue that became divisive that I'm sure wasn't meant to be in the beginning. If you like doing that, great, your right, it's your choice. I have to be careful here. (My wife does the Pentecostal thing too)

 

[David1967]

No... the concept started in the 1st century.

Ok, what are you using for reference for a first century example?

 

[rrobs]

Yes, I always find it amusing when people want to sit on the Judgment Seat, ( a single occupancy chair), and tell people where they are going. I think an angel tried that once.

But, on the bright side, the spoke evil of Jesus too calling him a son of the devil, so you are in good company! Just rejoice and be glad that you are reviled for your reward is in Heaven and not on earth.

It's funny; I said something to that effect about me being in the company of Jesus and Paul in that regard. I forget exactly what I was called, but it wasn't very nice. Again, thanks for reminding me those who would say such things are in the minority! I'd rather think that than the other way.

The moment we confessed Jesus as Lord and believed God raised him from the dead (Rom 10:9) we were made as righteous as God Himself (Rom 3:22). No way I'd ever have come up with that idea, but then I'm not God! To say anything other than Romans 3:22 reminds me of something God told Paul,

Acts 11:9: "But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common."

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Rom 10:9: "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

Yes.

Trinitarian says to see jesus align with god since the intermediary doesn't add his own words but only the words of god.

The trinity refers to the nature of jesus. You wouldn't pray to a human lord, lord so you can be saved, right?

You Must hold jesus at some level of importance in relationship to his father or that verse is saying pray to a human not a son of God.

Clearly, there is no mention there of belief in the trinity being a requirement for salvation. It's a pretty simple sentence. I don't see much room for "interpretation." No more complicated than, "John and Mary went to the store and bought potato chips." It just says what it means and means what it says

You have to draw your own conclusions. The verse is saying if you call it to jesus, you will be saved.

Trinitarian says you have to acknowledge that jesus is more than a human but a son of God....then, you can call out to him.

What's the use of that verse you quoted if you believe jesus is Just a Human with no relationship with God at all?

 

[rrobs]

You don't have to read Paul's letters to build denominations. Jewish faith also has many sects. Hey, The Baptists, celebrating what John the Baptist did... not even in Paul's letters.

But I love speaking in tongues. I don't have to, you don't have to, but people get to if they want.

Paul seemed to love speaking in tongues too,

1Cor 14:18: "I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:"

I'll cast my lot in with you and Paul. The other night I spoke in tongues while dreaming. I woke up with tears in my eyes. Praise God for the ability to pray perfectly!

 

[rrobs]

Of course, there isn't some requirement to believe in the Trinity. The concept of the Trinity didn't come along till a few hundred years after Christ. Interesting subject nonetheless, but it sure takes away from a conversation if one side is saying believe just like this or go to hell. Is Jesus the same as God? Well, He prayed to the Father, rebuked one who called Him good by saying that none were good but God. He said that His power and authority came from God.

Nor is Jesus sitting on his own right hand. That'd be just way too weird!

 

[Kenny]

Hey Ken! I was simply using that as an example of an issue that became divisive that I'm sure wasn't meant to be in the beginning. If you like doing that, great, your right, it's your choice. I have to be careful here. (My wife does the Pentecostal thing too)

LOL... when Jesus said "fire", did he mean between husband and wife?

 

[Kenny]

Ok, what are you using for reference for a first century example?

Gospels of John and Luke, and the Epistles. (Assuming that John was written in the first century, another debate)

 

[Kenny]

It's funny; I said something to that effect about me being in the company of Jesus and Paul in that regard. I forget exactly what I was called, but it wasn't very nice. Again, thanks for reminding me those who would say such things are in the minority! I'd rather think that than the other way.

The moment we confessed Jesus as Lord and believed God raised him from the dead (Rom 10:9) we were made as righteous as God Himself (Rom 3:22). No way I'd ever have come up with that idea, but then I'm not God! To say anything other than Romans 3:22 reminds me of something God told Paul,

Acts 11:9: "But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common."

Or even Jesus, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in Him will not perish but have everlasting life".

Pretty simple!

We are the righteousness of God thanks to the Cross of Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice!

 

[Kenny]

Paul seemed to love speaking in tongues too,

1Cor 14:18: "I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:"

I'll cast my lot in with you and Paul. The other night I spoke in tongues while dreaming. I woke up with tears in my eyes. Praise God for the ability to pray perfectly!

That is just beautiful!

You remind me of Cornelius when they thought Gentiles couldn't be saved and God sovereignly filled them with the Holy Spirit. It would seem to me that even you too can be saved because God has no exception of people. Blessed are they who believe but have not seen.

 

[David1967]

Nor is Jesus sitting on his own right hand. That'd be just way too weird!

I think Schizophrenic is the correct term.