Trinity and Salvation

[rrobs]

Leaving aside for a moment the argument of whether of not there is a trinity, I would like to address a central aspect of the question. One of the most damaging aspects about the trinity debate, one to which many sincere Trinitarian Christians adhere, is that if someone does not believe in the trinity they are not saved.

Salvation is the most important thing in life. Indeed, it determines one's eternal state. Why would God not make a requirement to believe in the trinity as plain as the nose on one's face? Why would God make it necessary to "read between the lines" in order be eternally saved? I can't imagine an earthly father doing something like that, let alone our heavenly father. If it were that important why would God not have used the word "trinity" at least once somewhere in the scriptures? Why do we not find even once the phrase, "Jesus is God" somewhere in the scriptures? Why would He make it so darn cryptic?

To those who insist belief in the trinity is a requirement for salvation, I challenge anyone to find an actual scripture that explicitly says one must believe in the trinity to be saved. In fact I will allow the introduction of any extraneous document written before the 5th century to prove the requirement of belief in the trinity to be saved, even though I personally take 100% of my doctrine from the scriptures and nothing but the scriptures. Now I understand that there are extraneous church documents that expound on the trinity, but I've not seen any that actually make belief in the trinity a requirement for salvation. At least the early trinitarians were tolerant of those who did not believe in the trinity, not condemning them to hell, as is the common teaching in the orthodox churches these days.

So let's see some scriptures that make belief in the trinity a requirement for salvation.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Leaving aside for a moment the argument of whether of not there is a trinity, I would like to address a central aspect of the question. One of the most damaging aspects about the trinity debate, one to which many sincere Trinitarian Christians adhere, is that if someone does not believe in the trinity they are not saved.

Salvation is the most important thing in life. Indeed, it determines one's eternal state. Why would God not make a requirement to believe in the trinity as plain as the nose on one's face? Why would God make it necessary to "read between the lines" in order be eternally saved? I can't imagine an earthly father doing something like that, let alone our heavenly father. If it were that important why would God not have used the word "trinity" at least once somewhere in the scriptures? Why do we not find even once the phrase, "Jesus is God" somewhere in the scriptures? Why would He make it so darn cryptic?

To those who insist belief in the trinity is a requirement for salvation, I challenge anyone to find an actual scripture that explicitly says one must believe in the trinity to be saved. In fact I will allow the introduction of any extraneous document written before the 5th century to prove the requirement of belief in the trinity to be saved, even though I personally take 100% of my doctrine from the scriptures and nothing but the scriptures. Now I understand that there are extraneous church documents that expound on the trinity, but I've not seen any that actually make belief in the trinity a requirement for salvation. At least the early trinitarians were tolerant of those who did not believe in the trinity, not condemning them to hell, as is the common teaching in the orthodox churches these days.

So let's see some scriptures that make belief in the trinity a requirement for salvation.

I can only comment on the logic in seeing both sides instead of one.

The idea of trinitarian thought is if you do not believe in some form of the divinity of christ he is just a human. Since we are human to, the gospels together place jesus at a higher importance and even more so am intermediary to the father.

When you have an intermediary (on scripture) anything the source says is what is said through the intermediary.

Take am interpreter. The ethics and law "scripture" of the interpreter is not to add nor subtract from the source language. The message is verbatim.

Same as christ. Trinitarians do not seperate the interpreter from the translated. In scripture, the savior and son are not seperated.

The debate isn't scripture. What I said above is scriptural. It's how individual christians express it.

As for salvation, it should not matter what analogy or verbatum view one expresses the relationship with Christ and his father. You can say the father is a bear and the son is a cub. The context represent the trinity.

The only reason I see you have to believe in the trinity to be saved is you have to believe in some form that the son isn't just a human. Whether he is a bear, goat, or mother is not near the point as you have to believe the basics.

After the basics, you're basically debating interpetation. Unless you draw conclusions yourself you can debate trinity till the cows come home but that's not the point.

I think you all argue because you think the bible saves. Connect with Christ. It makes more sense than both sides searching scripture as if it has eternal life and truth. It does not.

 

[David1967]

Salvation is the most important thing in life. Indeed, it determines one's eternal state. Why would God not make a requirement to believe in the trinity as plain as the nose on one's face?

Good point, but as I'm sure you've noticed, it's the things that are not so plain that people make the biggest deal about.

 

[metis]

One of the most damaging aspects about the trinity debate, one to which many sincere Trinitarian Christians adhere, is that if someone does not believe in the trinity they are not saved.

I think that there are very few, if any, denominations that actually teach that.

The early Church wrestled over this with no consensus, and yet there were no condemnations that I've seen through my studies that said that on had to have the p.c. view of Jesus, other than he was of God in some way, in order to be saved.

James Hitchcock covers this in quite some detail in the book "History of the Catholic Church", btw. The theologian Bart Ehrman (now an agnostic) does much the same in "How Jesus Became God" and draws the same above conclusion.

 

[Kenny]

Leaving aside for a moment the argument of whether of not there is a trinity, I would like to address a central aspect of the question. One of the most damaging aspects about the trinity debate, one to which many sincere Trinitarian Christians adhere, is that if someone does not believe in the trinity they are not saved.

Whether they do or not, I don't know.

What I do know that having interacted with double digits denominations, I have never heard that. What I have heard is that if you believe that Jesus is God in the flesh, you are not saved because you are a polytheist. That I have heard.

 

[rrobs]

I can only comment on the logic in seeing both sides instead of one.

The idea of trinitarian thought is if you do not believe in some form of the divinity of christ he is just a human. Since we are human to, the gospels together place jesus at a higher importance and even more so am intermediary to the father.

When you have an intermediary (on scripture) anything the source says is what is said through the intermediary.

Take am interpreter. The ethics and law "scripture" of the interpreter is not to add nor subtract from the source language. The message is verbatim.

Same as christ. Trinitarians do not seperate the interpreter from the translated. In scripture, the savior and son are not seperated.

The debate isn't scripture. What I said above is scriptural. It's how individual christians express it.

As for salvation, it should not matter what analogy or verbatum view one expresses the relationship with Christ and his father. You can say the father is a bear and the son is a cub. The context represent the trinity.

The only reason I see you have to believe in the trinity to be saved is you have to believe in some form that the son isn't just a human. Whether he is a bear, goat, or mother is not near the point as you have to believe the basics.

After the basics, you're basically debating interpetation. Unless you draw conclusions yourself you can debate trinity till the cows come home but that's not the point.W

I think you all argue because you think the bible saves. Connect with Christ. It makes more sense than both sides searching scripture as if it has eternal life and truth. It does not.

I wasn't debating the trinity, or saying anyone is right or wrong for believing it or not. I'm not arguing anything.

I was asking a question, looking for a verse that says one must believe in the trinity to be saved. I would consider salvation as basic as basic gets, so it seems it is of the utmost importance that we get at least that one part right and that God would make it clear one way or the other.

You gave me a reason that you consider it necessary to believe in the trinity, ("you have to believe in some form that the son isn't just a human") but you didn't give me a scripture that plainly states that to be the case. You gave me your opinion, but no actual scriptural proof. Would you not agree that salvation is not dependent on anybody's opinion, but on the scriptures themselves?

 

[rrobs]

Good point, but as I'm sure you've noticed, it's the things that are not so plain that people make the biggest deal about.

Excellent observation. I wonder why. Something to do with the devil perhaps?

 

[rrobs]

I think that there are very few, if any, denominations that actually teach that.

The early Church wrestled over this with no consensus, and yet there were no condemnations that I've seen through my studies that said that on had to have the p.c. view of Jesus, other than he was of God in some way, in order to be saved.

James Hitchcock covers this in quite some detail in the book "History of the Catholic Church", btw. The theologian Bart Ehrman (now an agnostic) does much the same in "How Jesus Became God" and draws the same above conclusion.

You could be right. I'd like to think so. Maybe I'm overly sensitive. On the other hand I can't tell you all the things I'm called as a non-trinitarian. Just this morning I was called a murderer. The other day I was labeled a whore monger. It doesn't bother me other than feeling sorry for someone whose heart holds such thoughts. It can't be spiritually healthy to say things like that. I just say a little prayer for them and move on with the greatness of God's love.

Anyway, thanks for bringing me back to reality. We'll talk later in heaven. I'm sure we'll both be there!

 

[rrobs]

Whether they do or not, I don't know.

What I do know that having interacted with double digits denominations, I have never heard that. What I have heard is that if you believe that Jesus is God in the flesh, you are not saved because you are a polytheist. That I have heard.

Well that's new to me. It's just as unloving to condemn someone for believing Jesus is God as the other way around. I can't imagine telling anybody where they will spend eternity. God looks on the heart, not outward appearance (1 Sam 16:7).

You and I have had different experiences. I've been called a murderer, a whore monger, a child of the devil, a heretic, and more. I find your attitude to be rare. But you give me hope. Thanks!

 

[metis]

Anyway, thanks for bringing me back to reality. We'll talk later in heaven. I'm sure we'll both be there!

Ah, but I think you probably have a far better chance than I because I have WAY too many questions and too few answers. But what I do understand is "love one another", and I try and do my best to live that out but all too often fall into temptation.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I wasn't debating the trinity, or saying anyone is right or wrong for believing it or not. I'm not arguing anything.

I was asking a question, looking for a verse that says one must believe in the trinity to be saved. I would consider salvation as basic as basic gets, so it seems it is of the utmost importance that we get at least that one part right and that God would make it clear one way or the other.

You gave me a reason that you consider it necessary to believe in the trinity, ("you have to believe in some form that the son isn't just a human") but you didn't give me a scripture that plainly states that to be the case. You gave me your opinion, but no actual scriptural proof. Would you not agree that salvation is not dependent on anybody's opinion, but on the scriptures themselves?

The reason they see trinity as salvation is they perceive that because jesus is at the same level as god, they don't seperate the two.

The nature of the trinity in relationship to salvation is there. To know the connection you need to read the trinity from scripture not from trinitarians.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@rrobs

You have to understand the nature of the trinity from the bible before determining whatever evidence they give for it aligns with the bible or their interpetation.

 

[David1967]

Excellent observation. I wonder why. Something to do with the devil perhaps?

You can blame the Devil if you want, but we (people) are pretty good at screwing things up on our own too. But my point for example; take Jesus teachings. For the most part, fairly simple. Love one another, don't be self righteously judgemental of others, etc. And what happens? People look instead at some letters of Paul and decide to build denominations around speaking in tongues and women not being allowed to wear makeup, jewelry, or even cut their hair. What's up with that? Jesus challenged the legalism of the Pharisees and folks created a new kind of legalism just as bad if not worse.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

So let's see some scriptures that make belief in the trinity a requirement for salvation.

To make my first reply short.

You have to understand the nature of the trinity in the bible not from trinitarians. You're asking for proof about needing the trinity for salvation. Unless you don't believe jesus role and he is just a regular human being, as in my post, I said it doesn't matter.

I also said it is in scripture but you have to read it from scripture not from a trinitarian.

 

[rrobs]

Ah, but I think you probably have a far better chance than I because I have WAY too many questions and too few answers. But what I do understand is "love one another", and I try and do my best to live that out but all too often fall into temptation.

Well, we all have flesh which sins like a drunken sailor. Jesus said there is no profit in the flesh (John 6:63) and Paul said there is no good thing in it (Rom 7:18). Our salvation is not dependent on our actions but in our belief in Jesus' actions. He bore our sins and left them in the grave where they belong.

Rom 10:9: "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

That's all we have to do to insure our eternal life. I understand how fantastic that sounds. It's certainly not man's idea on how things are, but there it is nonetheless. Very simple grammatically. Not much room for "interpretation." It simply says what it means and means what it says. Jesus is a complete savior, he left nothing undone.

I'm quite confident we will talk in heaven. Looking forward to meeting you!

 

[exchemist]

Leaving aside for a moment the argument of whether of not there is a trinity, I would like to address a central aspect of the question. One of the most damaging aspects about the trinity debate, one to which many sincere Trinitarian Christians adhere, is that if someone does not believe in the trinity they are not saved.

Salvation is the most important thing in life. Indeed, it determines one's eternal state. Why would God not make a requirement to believe in the trinity as plain as the nose on one's face? Why would God make it necessary to "read between the lines" in order be eternally saved? I can't imagine an earthly father doing something like that, let alone our heavenly father. If it were that important why would God not have used the word "trinity" at least once somewhere in the scriptures? Why do we not find even once the phrase, "Jesus is God" somewhere in the scriptures? Why would He make it so darn cryptic?

To those who insist belief in the trinity is a requirement for salvation, I challenge anyone to find an actual scripture that explicitly says one must believe in the trinity to be saved. In fact I will allow the introduction of any extraneous document written before the 5th century to prove the requirement of belief in the trinity to be saved, even though I personally take 100% of my doctrine from the scriptures and nothing but the scriptures. Now I understand that there are extraneous church documents that expound on the trinity, but I've not seen any that actually make belief in the trinity a requirement for salvation. At least the early trinitarians were tolerant of those who did not believe in the trinity, not condemning them to hell, as is the common teaching in the orthodox churches these days.

So let's see some scriptures that make belief in the trinity a requirement for salvation.

Which Christian groups say you cannot be saved without belief in the Trinity?

Oh sorry, I see several others have already questioned this. But seriously, I doubt most mainstream Christians would be dogmatic about that. It has always seemed to me that attempting to write the rules by which God saves individuals is the height of presumption.

Christians believe that salvation is a gift from God and as such it is God's choice who is saved - perhaps almost all humanity is, Christian and non-Christian alike. We don't know. All we can do is lay down guidance for ourselves - i.e. those of us brought up as Christian - as to what we think is expected of us.

 

[rrobs]

You can blame the Devil if you want, but we (people) are pretty good at screwing things up on our own too. But my point for example; take Jesus teachings. For the most part, fairly simple. Love one another, don't be self righteously judgemental of others, etc. And what happens? People look instead at some letters of Paul and decide to build denominations around speaking in tongues and women not being allowed to wear makeup, jewelry, or even cut their hair. What's up with that? Jesus challenged the legalism of the Pharisees and folks created a new kind of legalism just as bad if not worse.

I was suggesting some people get their ideas from the devil. But, yes, people do get some interesting ideas from somewhere, to be sure. No doubt some of mine will be found to be wrong when the dark glass is removed. I'd be a fool to think otherwise. But one thing is crystal clear;

Rom 10:9: "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

Very simple grammatical construction. It'd be pretty hard to construe it in any other way than what it plainly says. It says nothing about our behavior, belief in the trinity, baptism, speaking in tongues, or a many other things that divide us. Make Jesus Lord and believe God raised him from the dead and you're in! Period, end of story.

God tells over and over to be united in belief, to mind the same things. Obviously that is not yet the case, but one day, when Jesus returns, it will be. Until then people are people. We just need to bear with one another until that day. At least refrain from condemning a brother or sister to eternal damnation. But even that is forgiven. What a complete savior we have in Christ!

 

[rrobs]

Which Christian groups say you cannot be saved without belief in the Trinity?

Oh sorry, I see several others have already questioned this. But seriously, I doubt most mainstream Christians would be dogmatic about that. It has always seemed to me that attempting to write the rules by which God saves individuals is the height of presumption.

Christians believe that salvation is a gift from God and as such it is God's choice who is saved - perhaps almost all humanity is, Christian and non-Christian alike. We don't know. All we can do is lay down guidance for ourselves - i.e. those of us brought up as Christian - as to what we think is expected of us.

Maybe I've been running in the wrong circles, but I have been called everything from a murderer to a whore monger by otherwise loving Christians because I believe Jesus is the son of God and therefore not God Himself. I'll rethink my whole premise. Thanks for your encouragement!

This is all I know about getting saved,

Rom 10:9: "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

 

[2ndpillar]

I was suggesting some people get their ideas from the devil. But, yes, people do get some interesting ideas from somewhere, to be sure. No doubt some of mine will be found to be wrong when the dark glass is removed. I'd be a fool to think otherwise. But one thing is crystal clear;

Rom 10:9: "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

Well, if the false prophet Paul says it, it must be true. On the other hand, Yeshua said "false prophets will arise" but to be "saved", one must "endure to the end" (Matthew 24:11-13). The best description of the false prophets is found in (Matthew 7:15-23), whereas on that day, with respect to the wolves in sheep's clothing (Mt 7:15) many will say, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons, and in your name perform many miracles'? (Matthew 7:23). I think you have latched onto the seed of the tares, which according to Matthew 7:13, that "broad" "way" leads to "destruction".

 

[rrobs]

To make my first reply short.

You have to understand the nature of the trinity in the bible not from trinitarians. You're asking for proof about needing the trinity for salvation. Unless you don't believe jesus role and he is just a regular human being, as in my post, I said it doesn't matter.

I also said it is in scripture but you have to read it from scripture not from a trinitarian.

I see what you are saying, but which verse contradicts this one,

Rom 10:9: "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

Clearly, there is no mention there of belief in the trinity being a requirement for salvation. It's a pretty simple sentence. I don't see much room for "interpretation." No more complicated than, "John and Mary went to the store and bought potato chips." It just says what it means and means what it says.