Isn't it true that the more a group tries to censor it's members, the more suspect it is?

[Subduction Zone]

I try to be honest and only claim to KNOW things that I truly KNOW. I don't KNOW how the universe came into existence (if it had a beginning) or if it has or even needed a creator. Therefore I don't make claims about such things.

Since you are a Christian you believe that your god created the universe, but how do you KNOW your beliefs are true?

Many Christians do not seem to understand the difference between knowledge and belief.

 

[shmogie]

I try to be honest and only claim to KNOW things that I truly KNOW. I don't KNOW how the universe came into existence (if it had a beginning) or if it has or even needed a creator. Therefore I don't make claims about such things.

Since you are a Christian you believe that your god created the universe, but how do you KNOW your beliefs are true?

Because I know they are true. Philosophy, cosmology, biology, physics the discipline of logic, personal experience, the experience of others all reinforce that what I know is true.

Before you ask, I have no obligation to share with you anything that I know, unless I choose to, at this time, I don't choose to.

 

[shmogie]

Many Christians do not seem to understand the difference between knowledge and belief.

And many Christians know exactly the difference between knowledge and belief. Many atheists as well don't know the difference between knowledge and belief when it comes to their own religion, worshipping their own god, science.

 

[JustWondering]

Because I know they are true. Philosophy, cosmology, biology, physics the discipline of logic, personal experience, the experience of others all reinforce that what I know is true.

Before you ask, I have no obligation to share with you anything that I know, unless I choose to, at this time, I don't choose to.

You obviously have nothing to share. Just another theist dipping into the debate section to give their OPINION and then immediately ducking out without backing it up.

 

[Subduction Zone]

And many Christians know exactly the difference between knowledge and belief. Many atheists as well don't know the difference between knowledge and belief when it comes to their own religion, worshipping their own god, science.

Knowledge is demonstrable. All I have ever seen is a demonstration of belief and not of actual events or beings.

By the way, you demonstrated a lack of understanding of atheism in your post. Neither it nor science is a religion for atheists.

 

[shmogie]

Knowledge is demonstrable. All I have ever seen is a demonstration of belief and not of actual events or beings.

By the way, you demonstrated a lack of understanding of atheism in your post. Neither it nor science is a religion for atheists.

I understand what atheism is. I said SOME make a religion of science. That is they consider it the ultimate authority. They have FAITH that it;s unproven theories and conclusions are fact, and explain all questions of existence.

 

[Drizzt Do'Urden]

And many Christians know exactly the difference between knowledge and belief. Many atheists as well don't know the difference between knowledge and belief when it comes to their own religion, worshipping their own god, science.

You didn't just call atheism a religion did you?

Atheism is a religion like bald is a hair color
Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sexual position
Atheism is a religion like NOT collecting stamps is a hobby

 

[Subduction Zone]

I understand what atheism is. I said SOME make a religion of science. That is they consider it the ultimate authority. They have FAITH that it;s unproven theories and conclusions are fact, and explain all questions of existence.

Actually you said "many". Now if you go by raw numbers you could argue that, but by "raw numbers" one could argue that "many" Christians believe in a flat Earth.

And no, "FAITH" is a religious failing. All theories are by definition "unproven". Gravity is "unproven". Atheists have a well earned respect for the sciences. That is not faith.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Christians discourage transparancy and free investigation.

I'm going to have to agree with @Jayhawker Soule on this one. The OP needs refinement.

It isn't individual Christians so much as the paid minister arrangement. This means that there is no room for discussion about anything much, because somebody is getting paid to maintain an iron grip on the congregation. Ministry is both an industry and an occupation, and where Christian churches tend to make the mistake is confusing spiritual office with a paid position. I don't think you can hire a pastor, but that is commonly a title that goes onto resumes. Its not Ok for 'Pastor' to be a career. Its not supposed to be a career in my opinion. It creates a stagnant environment, and I think that is what the OP is observing.

 

[tayla]

If your system of belief cannot stand up to scrutiny and if you strongly discourage your members from investigating all avenues there is something wrong.

Yes, I agree.

 

[Ponder This]

If your system of belief cannot stand up to scrutiny and if you strongly discourage your members from investigating all avenues there is something wrong. Cults come to mind. Christianity comes to mind. For example, North Korea has a suspect government, therefore it prevents its people from knowing more and seeing more. In case they rebel. The US has a more transparent and stable government. Democracy is healthy and people can think and see for themselves.
Christian forums prevent atheists from speaking out. Christians discourage transparancy and free investigation. They warn their members that satan can get a hold on them if they investigate too much. Atheist forums and ex Christian forums however value all knowledge.
I am therefore implying that Christianity exists by hiding truth from its followers. It indoctrinates and holds prisoner with threats of eternal punishment.
What is your opinion on this matter?

Once Upon a Time the Bible could only be read by the priests who knew latin and the illiterate populace relied on the priests to tell them what was written in it...

Today, people are generally literate and anybody can read the Bible and judge for themselves (and Christians seem eager to have people read their books and talk about them). Since modern Christianity thrives on having it's literature openly available and criticized, it seems that it cannot be said to be hiding truth from it's members...

Of course, I can't speak for every Christian organization, but it seems to me that you will have to do more to justify your position that Christianity discourages honest investigation.

As for the threats of Satan and Hell, are you saying that the Christians in question don't themselves believe in Satan or Hell? Because it's not dishonesty if you are saying what you really believe to be true...

 

[oldbadger]

If your system of belief cannot stand up to scrutiny and if you strongly discourage your members from investigating all avenues there is something wrong. Cults come to mind. Christianity comes to mind. For example, North Korea has a suspect government, therefore it prevents its people from knowing more and seeing more. In case they rebel. The US has a more transparent and stable government. Democracy is healthy and people can think and see for themselves.
Christian forums prevent atheists from speaking out. Christians discourage transparancy and free investigation. They warn their members that satan can get a hold on them if they investigate too much. Atheist forums and ex Christian forums however value all knowledge.
I am therefore implying that Christianity exists by hiding truth from its followers. It indoctrinates and holds prisoner with threats of eternal punishment.
What is your opinion on this matter?

It's true that the most extreme right-wing christian forums do restrict most of their sections to christians-only.

The most right-wing, white-super, extreme-christian forum I know has stopped any posts from criticising President Trump in any way, and it bans any members who break the rule! This same forum considers itself to be the upholder of freedom !!!!

But the democratic West does manipulate and censor information and news, imo. In that I think that your total trust is misplaced.

Welcome to RF.....

 

[TruePathFinder]

Once Upon a Time the Bible could only be read by the priests who knew latin and the illiterate populace relied on the priests to tell them what was written in it...

Today, people are generally literate and anybody can read the Bible and judge for themselves (and Christians seem eager to have people read their books and talk about them). Since modern Christianity thrives on having it's literature openly available and criticized, it seems that it cannot be said to be hiding truth from it's members...

Of course, I can't speak for every Christian organization, but it seems to me that you will have to do more to justify your position that Christianity discourages honest investigation.

As for the threats of Satan and Hell, are you saying that the Christians in question don't themselves believe in Satan or Hell? Because it's not dishonesty if you are saying what you really believe to be true...

In most cases the ones in power also believe in Satan and Hell and think they are doing the right thing dissuading Christians from being exposed to evil. But they are still preventing people from realizing that there is nothing to fear. They are still limiting freedom and promoting subjugation.

 

[TruePathFinder]

Perhaps not all Christian institutions are the same. My experience and the history of the church has given me the impression that Christianity in general believe in a malicious Satan and in an eternal hell. But you are free to show me that this is not so....

 

[TruePathFinder]

I am an agnostic atheist. I don't try to prove that there isn't a god. I lack belief in god and I am open to the fact that I may be wrong. I do however believe that there is no anthropomorphic Christian god. If there is a god, it would likely be a deist god who set things in motion and left the universe to develop by itself as we see science demonstrates. Christians don't have a monopoly on god. In fact, the very bible makes it very difficult for them to argue that their god exists. This universe could exist without the input of a god. Saying there is no god (gnostic atheism) and saying there is a god requires faith. Faith is something you resort to when there is no evidence. It is impossible to know that god exists. Wait, perhaps I should decribe myself as agnostic with atheist and deist tendencies.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Been round this bush before. To claim there is no God de facto creates a claim for something else for the creation of the universe or life with no, evidence. If the atheist simply knows nothing then as a Christian I know more than he.

All a bit pointless though if your knowledge is wrong.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Because I know they are true. Philosophy, cosmology, biology, physics the discipline of logic, personal experience, the experience of others all reinforce that what I know is true.

Before you ask, I have no obligation to share with you anything that I know, unless I choose to, at this time, I don't choose to.

Nah! Just talk. You know nothing more than anyone else - you just believe more.

 

[shmogie]

Nah! Just talk. You know nothing more than anyone else - you just believe more.

Interesting. What determines what a person knows ? Do you know Einsteins theory of relativity is correct ? How do you know it is, if so ?

 

[shmogie]

All a bit pointless though if your knowledge is wrong.

But it isn't, and you can;'t prove it is

 

[TruePathFinder]

Interesting. What determines what a person knows ? Do you know Einsteins theory of relativity is correct ? How do you know it is, if so ?

How a Total Solar Eclipse Helped Prove Einstein Right About Relativity