Isn't it true that the more a group tries to censor it's members, the more suspect it is?

[David T]

This man knows the truth.
*grabs pitchfork*

Yes but I get lots of mutual agreements across philosophical divides!! Atheists believe me to be the devil in white or religious people believe me to be the devil in red..either way they agree I am the devil.

apparently they don't see my avatar I am a green devil, with headphones in hand and the title of the avatar image is "learning to listen"....

 

[Apologes]

Christian forums prevent atheists from speaking out. Christians discourage transparancy and free investigation. They warn their members that satan can get a hold on them if they investigate too much. Atheist forums and ex Christian forums however value all knowledge.

This is some really petty generalization. Not to mention a downright insult to any self-reflective Christian like myself.

It's sad that this is just one of quite a few threads in the last couple of days in which people need to be told that not all people of a group are same. There is good and bad in each one. There are plenty Christians out there who are honestly investigating everything - their faith included. There are also plenty of atheists who merely dropped out of their faith and jumped on the new atheist bandwagon (with dogmatism equal, if not greater, to that which they had back when they were still religious) just because it aligned better with their tastes.

I am therefore implying that Christianity exists by hiding truth from its followers. It indoctrinates and holds prisoner with threats of eternal punishment.
What is your opinion on this matter?

My opinion is that you don't know much about Christianity and are just making lame generalizations while encouraging a tribal mentality of us vs them which only leads to each "tribe" mocking the other while refusing to come off their high horse.

 

[Kenny]

If your system of belief cannot stand up to scrutiny and if you strongly discourage your members from investigating all avenues there is something wrong. Cults come to mind. Christianity comes to mind. For example, North Korea has a suspect government, therefore it prevents its people from knowing more and seeing more. In case they rebel. The US has a more transparent and stable government. Democracy is healthy and people can think and see for themselves.
Christian forums prevent atheists from speaking out. Christians discourage transparancy and free investigation. They warn their members that satan can get a hold on them if they investigate too much. Atheist forums and ex Christian forums however value all knowledge.
I am therefore implying that Christianity exists by hiding truth from its followers. It indoctrinates and holds prisoner with threats of eternal punishment.
What is your opinion on this matter?

That is quite funny.

Apparently you have no idea of what you are talking about.

 

[shmogie]

If your system of belief cannot stand up to scrutiny and if you strongly discourage your members from investigating all avenues there is something wrong. Cults come to mind. Christianity comes to mind. For example, North Korea has a suspect government, therefore it prevents its people from knowing more and seeing more. In case they rebel. The US has a more transparent and stable government. Democracy is healthy and people can think and see for themselves.
Christian forums prevent atheists from speaking out. Christians discourage transparancy and free investigation. They warn their members that satan can get a hold on them if they investigate too much. Atheist forums and ex Christian forums however value all knowledge.
I am therefore implying that Christianity exists by hiding truth from its followers. It indoctrinates and holds prisoner with threats of eternal punishment.
What is your opinion on this matter?

This is so far from the truth it is laughable. Christian forums may not allow atheists, because, guess what, they are Christian forums ? Who needs to hear from an atheist when discussing, say a general call and individual call, or salvation by faith, or the symbolism of Revelation, or the pre trib, inter trib, or post trib rapture ? They would have nothing to the conversation and most wouldn't have clue. In a theological discussion I have no desire to hear from someone who hasn't a clue about what is being discussed, and doesn't care. They have a single point of view and only one thing to discuss.

I have engaged atheists many many times over the years. They have no more evidence for their view than I have for mine. No one ever leaves one of these discussions with a changed mind.

Your understanding of Christianity is vastly lacking, your conclusions are at best erroneous, at the worst ignorantly prejudiced.

It would be better if you learned a little before leaking drivel.

 

[Faithofchristian]

If your system of belief cannot stand up to scrutiny and if you strongly discourage your members from investigating all avenues there is something wrong. Cults come to mind. Christianity comes to mind. For example, North Korea has a suspect government, therefore it prevents its people from knowing more and seeing more. In case they rebel. The US has a more transparent and stable government. Democracy is healthy and people can think and see for themselves.
Christian forums prevent atheists from speaking out. Christians discourage transparancy and free investigation. They warn their members that satan can get a hold on them if they investigate too much. Atheist forums and ex Christian forums however value all knowledge.
I am therefore implying that Christianity exists by hiding truth from its followers. It indoctrinates and holds prisoner with threats of eternal punishment.
What is your opinion on this matter?

Maybe you should try telling those people who got beaten and eggs thrown at them, because of who they voted for.

What about people getting attack because they wanted to maintain their freedom of speech.

What about those college campuses that got burned because people wanted freedom of speech.

As to where do you get that Religious forms prevent Atheists from speaking out.
You can't be Serious.

I haven't heard or seen Religious forms from preventing anyone from speaking out, As long as they do it in a moderate form.

So I don't know where your coming.

I've always seen Religious forms treat people pretty good.

 

[Apologes]

This is so far from the truth it is laughable. Christian forums may not allow atheists, because, guess what, they are Christian forums ? Who needs to hear from an atheist when discussing, say a general call and individual call, or salvation by faith, or the symbolism of Revelation, or the pre trib, inter trib, or post trib rapture ? They would have nothing to the conversation and most wouldn't have clue. In a theological discussion I have no desire to hear from someone who hasn't a clue about what is being discussed, and doesn't care. They have a single point of view and only one thing to discuss.

I have engaged atheists many many times over the years. They have no more evidence for their view than I have for mine. No one ever leaves one of these discussions with a changed mind.

Your understanding of Christianity is vastly lacking, your conclusions are at best erroneous, at the worst ignorantly prejudiced.

It would be better if you learned a little before leaking drivel.

As a fellow Christian, I agree with everything except the bold. People do change minds. That's how evangelism works.

 

[Subduction Zone]

This is so far from the truth it is laughable. Christian forums may not allow atheists, because, guess what, they are Christian forums ? Who needs to hear from an atheist when discussing, say a general call and individual call, or salvation by faith, or the symbolism of Revelation, or the pre trib, inter trib, or post trib rapture ? They would have nothing to the conversation and most wouldn't have clue. In a theological discussion I have no desire to hear from someone who hasn't a clue about what is being discussed, and doesn't care. They have a single point of view and only one thing to discuss.

I have engaged atheists many many times over the years. They have no more evidence for their view than I have for mine. No one ever leaves one of these discussions with a changed mind.

Your understanding of Christianity is vastly lacking, your conclusions are at best erroneous, at the worst ignorantly prejudiced.

It would be better if you learned a little before leaking drivel.

Some Christian Forums supposedly welcome atheists, but one must tread on eggshells at even those I have found. And yep, their forums, their rules. One has to go in with the knowledge that certain arguments may strike a nerve.

But as tor the evidence claim that indicates that you do not understand what atheism is. For most but not all atheists, atheism is simply a lack of belief. The lack of evidence for theism by theists is what drives their lack of belief. For example you probably do not believe in Bigfoot because there is a lack of evidence for their existence. For the same reason most atheists do not believe in a god. For them it is not a positive statement that "there is no god", if that was the case you might have a valid claim. What they point out is that theists have an extraordinary claim and they have no reliable evidence for that belief.

 

[sealchan]

If your system of belief cannot stand up to scrutiny and if you strongly discourage your members from investigating all avenues there is something wrong. Cults come to mind. Christianity comes to mind. For example, North Korea has a suspect government, therefore it prevents its people from knowing more and seeing more. In case they rebel. The US has a more transparent and stable government. Democracy is healthy and people can think and see for themselves.
Christian forums prevent atheists from speaking out. Christians discourage transparancy and free investigation. They warn their members that satan can get a hold on them if they investigate too much. Atheist forums and ex Christian forums however value all knowledge.
I am therefore implying that Christianity exists by hiding truth from its followers. It indoctrinates and holds prisoner with threats of eternal punishment.
What is your opinion on this matter?

From a systems point of view there is a lot of truth in this...the open exchange of ideas threatens change which threatens established norms and the structures of authority and power which form around those norms.

Literalism is the greatest of offenders in this regard as it requires a monumental disconnect from the fruits of the scientific age.

There are those who are speaking, arguing for a more adult form of Christianity...one that does not use the fear of death and the credibility of many to perpetuate wilfull ignorance.

So I think that as a system of belief with a need to remain in credible relationship with other ways of knowing, Christianity has much to offer. This in spite of those who seem to need to keep it a child's fairy tale.

 

[Apologes]

Some Christian Forums supposedly welcome atheists, but one must tread on eggshells at even those I have found. And yep, their forums, their rules. One has to go in with the knowledge that certain arguments may strike a nerve.

But as tor the evidence claim that indicates that you do not understand what atheism is. For most but not all atheists, atheism is simply a lack of belief. The lack of evidence for theism by theists is what drives their lack of belief. For example you probably do not believe in Bigfoot because there is a lack of evidence for their existence. For the same reason most atheists do not believe in a god. For them it is not a positive statement that "there is no god", if that was the case you might have a valid claim. What they point out is that theists have an extraordinary claim and they have no reliable evidence for that belief.

What you're describing is negative atheism. (In my opinion it's just plain agnosticism, "lack of belief".) Many people certainly hold to it, but to say it's the majority is inaccurate. Most of the debate on theism throughout history of philosophy has centered on providing a case for and against the existence of God. This is why the traditional arguments for atheism have been those that aimed to prove that God doesn't exist such as the problem of evil.

It was only after The Presumption of Atheism was published in 1976 that the distinction between positive and negative atheism was drawn (even though views such as the implicit-explicit distinctions existed since the 18th century) and even Flew admitted that atheism ought to be understood in an unusual way, noting the predominantly positive nature of the view so far.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I feel the OP is, quite honestly, relatable to a lot of what many people have witnessed and discuss comes from the ranks of Christianity - maybe not all denominations/sects - but enough of them. Especially taking into account history. How long was it before many facts were incorporated into the base of accepted knowledge, and what ended up being the biggest opponent to such incorporation much of the time? How about all that music people were encouraged not to listen to? Don't play Dungeons and Dragons, right? Also gotta make sure you're wearing the right clothes! "Stay away from even the appearance of evil."

Sure... there is anecdotal evidence to the contrary, obviously. We all know "not everyone is the same", etc. And seriously... is it of absolutely no use to talk about something in general terms when it is something seen a relatively high proportion of the time? Not all dogs attack people viciously, but we still tell our children to "be careful" around them, don't we? Everyone is always on everyone else's case, but generalization has its purposes. It only "sounds good" when you decry it as an offense because it's an easy target... because "we're all special."

Personally, I honestly like to hear what people think of "all atheists." The things they complain about. Then I can either refute if I think it's baseless, or accept it if it's not and vow to make sure I, personally, don't make the same trespasses. Or accept it and simply decide not to care that other people are bothered by the behavior, etc. At least I am informed. I'd always rather that than the alternative.

 

[Twilight Hue]

If your system of belief cannot stand up to scrutiny and if you strongly discourage your members from investigating all avenues there is something wrong. Cults come to mind. Christianity comes to mind. For example, North Korea has a suspect government, therefore it prevents its people from knowing more and seeing more. In case they rebel. The US has a more transparent and stable government. Democracy is healthy and people can think and see for themselves.
Christian forums prevent atheists from speaking out. Christians discourage transparancy and free investigation. They warn their members that satan can get a hold on them if they investigate too much. Atheist forums and ex Christian forums however value all knowledge.
I am therefore implying that Christianity exists by hiding truth from its followers. It indoctrinates and holds prisoner with threats of eternal punishment.
What is your opinion on this matter?

Can't say I disagree to a larger extent.

 

[shmogie]

Some Christian Forums supposedly welcome atheists, but one must tread on eggshells at even those I have found. And yep, their forums, their rules. One has to go in with the knowledge that certain arguments may strike a nerve.

But as tor the evidence claim that indicates that you do not understand what atheism is. For most but not all atheists, atheism is simply a lack of belief. The lack of evidence for theism by theists is what drives their lack of belief. For example you probably do not believe in Bigfoot because there is a lack of evidence for their existence. For the same reason most atheists do not believe in a god. For them it is not a positive statement that "there is no god", if that was the case you might have a valid claim. What they point out is that theists have an extraordinary claim and they have no reliable evidence for that belief.

Been round this bush before. To claim there is no God de facto creates a claim for something else for the creation of the universe or life with no, evidence. If the atheist simply knows nothing then as a Christian I know more than he. Why do I have a burden of proof to provide evidence to someone who knows nothing, and admits it. ? Regardless, I have no obligation to engage anyone on any subject unless I choose, so unless I choose, there is no burden on me for anything. Atheist arguments don strike nerves in Christian theological discussions, they have no place being there. A fish can´t discuss the workings of an internal combustion engine with a group of auto engineers

 

[JustWondering]

If your system of belief cannot stand up to scrutiny and if you strongly discourage your members from investigating all avenues there is something wrong. Cults come to mind. Christianity comes to mind. For example, North Korea has a suspect government, therefore it prevents its people from knowing more and seeing more. In case they rebel. The US has a more transparent and stable government. Democracy is healthy and people can think and see for themselves.
Christian forums prevent atheists from speaking out. Christians discourage transparancy and free investigation. They warn their members that satan can get a hold on them if they investigate too much. Atheist forums and ex Christian forums however value all knowledge.
I am therefore implying that Christianity exists by hiding truth from its followers. It indoctrinates and holds prisoner with threats of eternal punishment.
What is your opinion on this matter?

You pretty much nailed it.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

For equal time, you should head over to the nearby
thread on "why do atheists have to be..."
and make the same comment.

Why do you doubt he would?
I've never found @Jayhawker Soule one to stick to 'his team'.

He appears to just post as he thinks.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Absolutely I am always getting forum rules violations. Clearly religious forums is a cult.

I wish...I'd qualify for at least a couple of wives by now.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I totally understand you my friend. I went to a few Baptist (and similar) churches in Holland, and had the same experience with all of them. So naturally coming here I was also very biased. So for sure not your fault. A donkey doesn't walk into the same stone twice [I gave the Dutch christians like 10 chances; they messed up all 10]. But today I decide to make a fresh start here and give the Christians a new chance. At least there are so many different denominations, all with different views. So I look at it now a little different, and seen here very friendly Christians; result I am getting already little more friendly too

We're lucky to have several diamonds amongst the 'rough' of each groups.

 

[JustWondering]

Been round this bush before. To claim there is no God de facto creates a claim for something else for the creation of the universe or life with no, evidence. If the atheist simply knows nothing then as a Christian I know more than he. Why do I have a burden of proof to provide evidence to someone who knows nothing, and admits it. ? Regardless, I have no obligation to engage anyone on any subject unless I choose, so unless I choose, there is no burden on me for anything. Atheist arguments don strike nerves in Christian theological discussions, they have no place being there. A fish can´t discuss the workings of an internal combustion engine with a group of auto engineers

So being honest and admitting you don't know something is worse then pretending that you know something when you really don't?

 

[shmogie]

So being honest and admitting you don't know something is worse then pretending that you know something when you really don't?

So being honest and admitting you don't know something is worse then pretending that you know something when you really don't?

Admitting you don't know something, and knowing you know something aren't the same thing. Who are you to determine what someone knows ? Do you think knowledge comes about only as you decide ?

 

[shmogie]

You pretty much nailed it.

Right, to his own forehead

 

[JustWondering]

Admitting you don't know something, and knowing you know something aren't the same thing. Who are you to determine what someone knows ? Do you think knowledge comes about only as you decide ?

I try to be honest and only claim to KNOW things that I truly KNOW. I don't KNOW how the universe came into existence (if it had a beginning) or if it has or even needed a creator. Therefore I don't make claims about such things.

Since you are a Christian you believe that your god created the universe, but how do you KNOW your beliefs are true?