Lack of belief (yet again)

[PureX]

For some people, unfortunately, "I don't believe in god" is a personal affront.

How is what personally affronts them my problem? I see the upset faces fall on the JoHos that come around trying to sell me on eternal damnation when I make it clear to them I'm not interested, but so what? It's not like they egg my car for it, or anything.

 

[Curious George]

How is what personally affronts them my problem? I see the upset faces fall on the JoHos that come around trying to sell me on eternal damnation when I make it clear to them I'm not interested, but so what? It's not like they egg my car for it, or anything.

Is that the correct question, or is more pertinent to ask why such a thing serves as a personal affront to them? After all, why would anyone take it offensively that I believe no god exists. It is not like i can choose otherwise.

 

[PureX]

Is that the correct question, or is more pertinent to ask why such a thing serves as a personal affront to them? After all, why would anyone take it offensively that I believe no god exists. It is not like i can choose otherwise.

Well, you can choose otherwise, but not understanding that is YOUR problem. Their inability to appreciate your right to believe as you see fit, for whatever reason you see fit, is THEIRS.

We all have our problems and limitations, some more 'effecting' than others.

 

[Curious George]

Well, you can choose otherwise, but not understanding that is YOUR problem. Their inability to appreciate your right to believe as you see fit, for whatever reason you see fit, is THEIRS.

We all have our problems and limitations, some more 'effecting' than others.

No, a person cannot choose what they believe. You can not see a chair and choose to believ the chair does not exist, nor can you see no chair and choose to believe one exists. You either believe it exists, or you do not. Saying otherwise is just paying lip service to something which you do not believe for whatever whim.

But to address the topic at hand. I think that for many people the problem is not an inability to appreciate my right to believe. Rather it is a consequence of their reverence. It can happen with other things as well. Some patriots for instance can take a lack of reverence for the United States as a personal affront, some service members can take questioning service as a personal affront.

People react. There are plenty of people who do not. I certainly wouldn't suggest that outspoken/violent reactions are the norm. I would suggest the norm is mix between silent judgement and people who simply don't care. But to assume your reaction or your experience covers the domain of all reactions, is simply untrue.

 

[ArtieE]

What a load of BS.

When was the last time anyone asked you what you DON'T BELIEVE IN? When was the last time anyone threatened you because of what you don't believe?

Get real!

Heh... get real! Atheists get constantly threatened with hell by Christians because they DON'T believe in the Christian god...

 

[PureX]

No, a person cannot choose what they believe.

Of course you can. But I understand that you don't understand how this can be so, so you believe that you can't.

You can not see a chair and choose to believ the chair does not exist, nor can you see no chair and choose to believe one exists.

You can do either and both of these, but that's irrelevant, because we are not talking about the existence of simple objects, like chairs, we are talking about a meta-concept, as in "the existence of God".

But to address the topic at hand. I think that for many people the problem is not an inability to appreciate my right to believe. Rather it is a consequence of their reverence. It can happen with other things as well. Some patriots for instance can take a lack of reverence for the United States as a personal affront, some service members can take questioning service as a personal affront.

Yes, this seems to be happening more and more these days. People conflating their personal ideologies with their personal identity. I blame commercial advertising, and decades of propaganda equating product messaging with internal well-being. "Buy this widget and your being will be complete!"

 

[Curious George]

Heh... get real! Atheists get constantly threatened with hell by Christians because they DON'T believe in the Christian god...

Yeah, but does that constitute a threat? If I told you Santa wasnt going to bring you presents because of your comments on RF, did I REALLY threaten you?

 

[Curious George]

Of course you can. But I understand that you don't understand how this can be so, so you believe that you can't.
You can do either and both of these, but that's irrelevant, because we are not talking about the existence of simple objects, like chairs, we are talking about a meta-concept, as in "the existence of God".

An interesting thread. I believe it has appeared before now as well. But if you think you can help me understand and i would agree with your perspective...i will start it.

Yes, this seems to be happening more and more these days. People conflating their personal ideologies with their personal identity. I blame commercial advertising, and decades of propaganda equating product messaging with internal well-being. "Buy this widget and your being will be complete!"

I am not sure it is a recent trend, rather than an ancient tradition.

 

[PureX]

Heh... get real! Atheists get constantly threatened with hell by Christians because they DON'T believe in the Christian god...

No, they really don't.

Unless the atheist is going to the churches and meeting halls of religious zealots, or to their web sites and proclaiming his "unbelief" in their "superstitious nonsense" and his loathing for their "treasonous cause of theocracy", I doubt anyone ever threatens him with hell. One would have to actually seek those people out, and insult their beliefs, to get that reaction from them.

 

[Jesster]

No, they really don't.

Unless the atheist is going to the churches and meeting halls of religious zealots, or to their web sites and proclaiming his "unbelief" in their "superstitious nonsense" and his loathing for their "treasonous cause of theocracy", I doubt anyone ever threatens him with hell. One would have to actually seek those people out, and insult their beliefs, to get that reaction from them.

My parents constantly use this, among other things, to threaten me. I'm certainly not seeking that out.

 

[McBell]

Well they either do it for good reason, or for no good reason. I tend to think the former, but imagine you think the latter.

No idea why you would assign me to either.

 

[Curious George]

No idea why you would assign me to either.

It was your use of the word nonsense that informed my belief.

 

[McBell]

It was your use of the word nonsense that informed my belief.

If it has nothing to do with the definition and it is still included, it is nonsense.
If you disagree, please explain why.

 

[McBell]

Yeah, but does that constitute a threat? If I told you Santa wasnt going to bring you presents because of your comments on RF, did I REALLY threaten you?

Yes.

Even a meaningless empty threat is still a threat.

 

[Curious George]

If it has nothing to do with the definition and it is still included, it is nonsense.
If you disagree, please explain why.

Lol...let's pause for a minute. Do you understand why I would assign you to the group who believed that the addition of components to the definition of atheist is "for no good reason."

 

[osgart]

atheism is a cause brought on by the oppression of inferior religion. I would say not all religion is oppressive, and unjust. but Christianity and Islam demand conformity.
scientific materialism is oppressing people as well to conform to their beliefs.

seeing that people are individuals, we should all respect people's rights to be convicted of whatever faith they choose so long as they don't oppress people with the conviction.
people should be free to express their convictions so long as they aren't delusional judgments on people's souls.

there is a need to contest religion, because it is an enemy to freedom of rights. religion should be subject to lawful interrogation, and prohibitive restrictions. or perhaps we should all fight it out under the protection of free speech. it's just that religion is accusatory of those who don't comply.

religion should be better than what we currently have, and it isn't.

I subscribe to free will and the right to choose one's own self so long as it is harmless to the general welfare.

unfortunately many, many millions of people are religious in the accusatory way.

 

[McBell]

Lol...let's pause for a minute. Do you understand why I would assign you to the group who believed that the addition of components to the definition of atheist is "for no good reason."

...
My apologies.
I do now understand your point.
Thank you for your patience.

 

[PureX]

My parents constantly use this, among other things, to threaten me. I'm certainly not seeking that out.

I presume you mean they threaten you with eternal damnation.

I am very sorry for you in this situation. We don't get to choose our families, and until we are adults, we don't get to control their input into our lives. But to be honest, there are kids who have it WAY worse. Because there are people who are "parents" in this world that should never have been allowed that responsibility.

I feel like a dweeb saying this, by maybe try to take the situation as a lesson in patience, and in tolerance, and the understanding of those who live their lives buried in such irrational fears (like we don't have enough in the real world to worry about). And the mystery of why they have allowed this to befall them. And be proud of yourself for having the wisdom and the courage not to fall for it, yourself.

 

[Yerda]

The burden of proof belongs to the one making the claim.
It matters not if that claim is "God exists" or "God does not exist"
BOTH have the burden of proof.

This is different from those who simply lack a belief in god.
I lack a belief in god because I have not seen anything that convinces me god exists.
I do not make the claim "God does not exist".
Thus I do not have burden of proof.


agreed.

Hi. I think I agree.

 

[LuisDantas]

Well, you can choose otherwise, but not understanding that is YOUR problem. Their inability to appreciate your right to believe as you see fit, for whatever reason you see fit, is THEIRS.

We all have our problems and limitations, some more 'effecting' than others.

How do you know an atheist can choose not to be one?

That is not true for many of us, perhaps even most.