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According to the Bible: All prophets before Muhammad were Muslims !!

Britedream

Active Member
Again, "I will put My words in his mouth" does not mean "new commandments". Besides for the five books of Moses, there are 19 other books from the prophets filled with G-d's words that were put in the prophets mouth. They are not new commandments and the verse doesn't say new commandments. Read what the words say, instead of what you want them to mean.
Like you say, prophets guide the people to worship G-d. In fact Moses guided the people to worship G-d. And so did all the prophets after him. So maybe that's what "like me" means.

Just read the words without any theology.

1- Did Moses bring new commands( complete new system of law)?, yes , so for the new prophet must do exact that, to Match, this is why the "new" word that you objected to, is required.

2- did Moses copy that from an earlier written source, No, so for the new prophet must do exact that.( for this complete system)

The comparison is between Moses and this prophet, and not many prophets.

No prophet or prophets from the Jews, brought the same complete new system of law as Moses did, so there is no match
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
1- Did Moses bring new commands( complete new system of law)?, yes , so for the new prophet must do exact that, to Match, this is why the "new" word that you objected to, is required.

2- did Moses copy that from an earlier written source, No, so for the new prophet must do exact that.( for this complete system)

The comparison is between Moses and this prophet, and not many prophets.

No prophet or prophets from the Jews, brought the same complete new system of law as Moses did, so there is no match
And for the third time, the verse doesn't say that "like me" means "like Moses brought new Laws". You are putting that explanation into the verse. But the verse doesn't explain that this is how the next prophet will be like Moses. I don't understand why you are having trouble understanding this. IT DOESN'T SAY "LIKE ME" MEANS THAT THE NEXT PROPHET WOULD "BRING NEW LAWS LIKE MOSES DID". IT DOESN'T SAY THAT ANYWHERE IN THE VERSE HERE OR ANYWHERE IN THE ENTIRE PASSAGE. IT DOESN'T SAY IT. YOU ARE INTERPOLATING THAT INTO THE TEXT. He will be a prophet like Moses was a prophet. He will be from amidst the nation like Moses was from amidst the nation. He will be from their brothers like Moses was from their brothers. That's what it means. No adding in your own words.

When it says "I will put My words in his mouth and he will speak to them all that I command him", it means that G-d will tell the prophet what to tell the Jews. G-d commands the prophet what to say and the prophet says it. That is what the prophets did. That's what Moses did. They spoke what G-d commanded them to speak. That's why so many verses start with "So said G-d,". Or in the English Bibles, "So saith the L-rd". That's the prophets speaking what G-d commanded them to speak.

The prophets chastised the nation all the time and people got punished when they didn't listen. You can find this all over the books of the prophets. And that's what the next verse says, whoever won't listen to the prophet is going to get punished from G-d.
 

Britedream

Active Member
And for the third time, the verse doesn't say that "like me" means "like Moses brought new Laws". You are putting that explanation into the verse. But the verse doesn't explain that this is how the next prophet will be like Moses. I don't understand why you are having trouble understanding this. IT DOESN'T SAY "LIKE ME" MEANS THAT THE NEXT PROPHET WOULD "BRING NEW LAWS LIKE MOSES DID". IT DOESN'T SAY THAT ANYWHERE IN THE VERSE HERE OR ANYWHERE IN THE ENTIRE PASSAGE. IT DOESN'T SAY IT. YOU ARE INTERPOLATING THAT INTO THE TEXT. He will be a prophet like Moses was a prophet. He will be from amidst the nation like Moses was from amidst the nation. He will be from their brothers like Moses was from their brothers. That's what it means. No adding in your own words.

When it says "I will put My words in his mouth and he will speak to them all that I command him", it means that G-d will tell the prophet what to tell the Jews. G-d commands the prophet what to say and the prophet says it. That is what the prophets did. That's what Moses did. They spoke what G-d commanded them to speak. That's why so many verses start with "So said G-d,". Or in the English Bibles, "So saith the L-rd". That's the prophets speaking what G-d commanded them to speak.

The prophets chastised the nation all the time and people got punished when they didn't listen. You can find this all over the books of the prophets. And that's what the next verse says, whoever won't listen to the prophet is going to get punished from G-d.


What are you saying, does not make any sense, because " prophet from them" encompasses all your description for a prophet. why God then takes all the trouble to say all unnecessary, and redundant extra words, which makes God say useless words, that makes God an ignorant God; Glory to God from what you have attributed to him. I know you that did not intend to mean this, but that is the reality of that.

I have no more to say, have a Good day.
It was a pleasure chatting with, you have been very nice. Thank you.
 

ukok102nak

Active Member
~;> your wrong again for the third time
thats not an argument
thats one of many writtings from
the bible itself
as the OP states according to the bible . . .

even those people who cant even read nor write knows the diffirence of what is good and what is a lie


:ty:



godbless
unto all always


Ah, the old, tired, 'Jews are blind' argument. It is so bizarre that people that can't read Hebrew are so eager to tell people that read Hebrew as their native tongue, what their own Hebrew text says.
 
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Tumah

Veteran Member
What are you saying, does not make any sense, because " prophet from them" encompasses all your description for a prophet. why God then takes all the trouble to say all unnecessary, and redundant extra words, which makes God say useless words, that makes God an ignorant God; Glory to God from what you have attributed to him. I know you that did not intend to mean this, but that is the reality of that.

I have no more to say, have a Good day.
It was a pleasure chatting with, you have been very nice. Thank you.
Its only useless because you've refused to read what it says. Can you imagine? It gives three different ways of saying that the prophet will be Jewish and there are still people in the world who think it could refer to a non-Jewish prophet! It looks like three was not enough!

The truth is, we also have different attributes that we learn out from the repetition as we always do:
"from your midst" - in Israel and not outside Israel
"from your brothers" and not from another nation
"like me" - whom you will trust (Ex. 14:31)
"will raise up for you" - and not for another nation

But I don't expect you as a Muslim to be able to perform such word analytics, so instead I went with the simplest, clearest way of translating the verse.
 

ukok102nak

Active Member
~;> again and
also
about this so called prophesy and
again
For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
Wherein God, willing more abundantly to show unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters into that within the veil;

also
as they say
For the LORD has poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and has closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers has he covered.
And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray you: and he says, I cannot; for it is sealed:
And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray you: and he says, I am not learned.
Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who sees us? and who knows us?
Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?


:ty:




godbless
unto all always
 

Britedream

Active Member
~;> again and
also
about this so called prophesy and
again
For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
Wherein God, willing more abundantly to show unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters into that within the veil;

also
as they say
For the LORD has poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and has closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers has he covered.
And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray you: and he says, I cannot; for it is sealed:
And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray you: and he says, I am not learned.
Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who sees us? and who knows us?
Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?





:ty:




godbless
unto all always


Thanks, there is a merit in what you are posting.

A prophet is telling his people God will send you a prophet; meaning sending you a message, what is first thing that comes to their mind?; what is he bringing?, they are concerned about his message, so message is the context; as to that, every word in the verse , should be understood according to this context; if I were to tell you that I live in Tampa, and you said: is that right?, I live in Tampa, you are like me. does anyone would understand that we are alike in character, no, but we live in the same city. They take the word out of its context, and understand it in different way according to their belief; which is fine to me, as long as they don't go , and put so much effort to prove you are wrong, and attack your faith or your character, while verse lend itself to your understanding very well.
 
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ukok102nak

Active Member
@
BritedreamMember

Thanks, there is a merit in what you are posting.

A prophet is telling his people God will send you a prophet; meaning sending you a message, what is first thing that comes to their mind?; what is he bringing?, they are concerned about his message, so message is the context; as to that, every word in the verse , should be understood according to this context; if I were to tell you that I live in Tampa, and you said: is that right?, I live in Tampa, you are like me. does anyone would understand that we are alike in character, no, but we live in the same city. They take the word out of its context, and understand it in different way according to their belief; which is fine to me, as long as they don't go , and put so much effort to prove you are wrong, and attack your faith or your character, while verse lend itself to your understanding very well.

:snowflake: We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written,
I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

by the way as they say
If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated:
Then it shall be, when he makes his sons to inherit that which he has, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn:
But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he has: for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his.

. ... just for a thought
if we may say so ... .


:ty:




godbless
unto all always
 
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Tumah

Veteran Member
Thanks, there is a merit in what you are posting.

A prophet is telling his people God will send you a prophet; meaning sending you a message, what is first thing that comes to their mind?; what is he bringing?, they are concerned about his message, so message is the context; as to that, every word in the verse , should be understood according to this context; if I were to tell you that I live in Tampa, and you said: is that right?, I live in Tampa, you are like me. does anyone would understand that we are alike in character, no, but we live in the same city. They take the word out of its context, and understand it in different way according to their belief; which is fine to me, as long as they don't go , and put so much effort to prove you are wrong, and attack your faith or your character, while verse lend itself to your understanding very well.
I see from here that you didn't understand the problem I tried to explain to you with your interpretation. I'm not sure you will understand it this time either, but at least I want you to see my effort is not to disprove your religion, just to explain the passage. If its not true, then we shouldn't say it. So I will leave this here and maybe you will read it and it will be clearer to you, but I don't expect a response.
Let's use an ayah from the Qur'an:
alBakarah 2:6 "Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe."
I interpret this verse as a prophecy that there will come a type of disbeliever that is those who don't believe in global warming. And the ayah is saying that people in the world will warn these disbelievers about global warning, but it won't help - they still will not believe.


If I would say that, you will tell me that I'm crazy. You will tell me that this has nothing to do with the surah and it doesn't fit with what the context is talking about. You will tell me that I'm taking out one ayah and translating it in a way that has nothing to do with anything, so that I can use it against people who don't believe in global warming. If I would just look at the context, I will see that the "disbelievers" are the disbelievers in All-h and the "you" are the Muslims that believe in Him. And the ayah is saying that some people no matter how much a Muslim will try to convince them, they won't believe in All-h. This is the context of that verse and if I would just read the ayat before and after, I would see clearly that my interpretation doesn't relate to the context at all.

This is the same problem that I'm telling you that you're doing.

The passage that we were discussing is not Moses telling the Jews a prophecy about some prophet that will come to bring them a new law. That has nothing to do with the passage. Its a passage about Moses telling the Jews how they will be lead while they are in Israel. Here it is with my running commentary. Moses opens up "When you come to the Land that G-d is giving you". This is the first verse in that passage. So now we know that the context of the next verses has to do with something that will be relevant to coming to the land of Israel that the Jews were about to enter. What about it? "Don't learn to do the disgusting things that they do there". Moses is telling us that we are prohibited to copy the bad things that they do. But which bad things is he referring to? "There should not be in you one who passes his son or his daughter in fire..." Moses explains exactly what - first he speaks about worshiping Molech (that is passing one's child through fire) and then he goes on to list eight different types of divination techniques (kosem, inun, nihush, kishuf, hover hever, sho'el ov, sho'el yid'oni, doresh el hameithim). If you'd like I can explain them all to you, but otherwise you can do a little research for yourself or you can take my word for it. These 9 things are often mentioned together and they are prohibited forms of magic and divination. So Moses has said that we are prohibited to perform these types of techniques. Rather we should "be complete with G-d". We should turn to G-d rather than these techniques. Then it must be that Moses is making some contrast between these techniques and G-d's way. And in fact that's what the next verse does, "because these nations...they listen to [those that practice] inun and nihush (types of divination techniques to find out the future), but you G-d did not give [permission] to do [these things]." So the Jews, when they enter the land of Israel should not try to determine the future using these types of divination. It is prohibited to us. Then how are we to know what to do? "A prophet from among you, from your brothers, like me, G-d will stand up for you - to him you shall listen." You see the contrast there? Moses is saying, they listen to those that practice divination that is prohibited. But you Jews will not listen to them, but rather to the prophet that G-d will send you.

To say that it is a prophecy about Muhammad doesn't fit the context. Moses is creating a parallel between the prophet and those that practice divination. He isn't making a parallel between false prophets and true prophets. That he does at the end of the passage. So its not talking about laws from G-d. At the end of this passage Moses very clearly discusses false prophets. Over here he is comparing the prophet to the diviner. A diviner is someone who tells you about the future. If you want to know what your lucky lottery numbers are, you go to the diviner, he does whatever it is he does and he tells you your lucky numbers. Moses is telling the Jews, that we are not allowed to go to them. So then who should we go to? The prophet. The prophet can also see the future, except he does it by communicating with G-d rather than communicating with spirits and dead souls. So Moses is saying, don't go to these unholy diviners, go to the holy prophet to ask your questions and listen to him.

Then the Jews say, "what? we're going to have more prophets?" and Moses says, "Yes, you will. Because everything you asked from G-d when you were at Horeb on the day of gathering, saying: I [can] no longer hear the voice of G-d, my G-d and the great fire I [can] no longer see, and (ie. so that) I will not die." On that day that G-d spoke the commandments at Sinai, the Jews complained that the voice of G-d made them feel like they were going to die. So they asked that G-d not speak directly to them. "And G-d said, 'they have [said] well, [that] which they spoke. A prophet I will raise for them, from among their brothers and I will put My words in his mouth and he will speak to them, everything which I command him." G-d says, they are correct, its impossible for the entire nation to hear G-d speak to them. So from then on, when G-d wants to tell them something He will use a prophet as a medium. And then, lest we think that since G-d is not directly telling us what he wants, we could somehow ignore the prophet who is speaking in his name, "And it will be, the person who does not listen to My words that he will speak in My name, I will collect from him." Just because G-d is not telling us directly, is not an excuse to ignore the prophecy. On the other hand, even though G-d will send us prophets, doesn't mean that people can decided to become false prophets. And so the rest of the passage is dedicated towards prohibiting false prophets and differentiating between them.

And in fact, this is exactly what happened. All the prophets of the books of the prophets, brought us messages from G-d telling us to fix our ways. And when we didn't listen, G-d gave us the stick. And when king Saul did go to the diviner instead of the prophet? The next day him and his sons were dead on the field of battle.

As you can see, this whole passage is one continuous idea. We will go the the land of Israel and be exposed to people who use divination to find out the future. We may not perform this divination, but instead are required to turn to the prophet of the day, to find out what we the future holds for us. Then Moses explains how we merited to have prophets lead us during that time - because of our request at Mt. Sinai: G-d agreed to it and promised us that He would use prophets to speak to us. Lastly we are warned against false prophets and how to differentiate between them. This is not a prophecy about a specific prophet that will come 1500 years later. That wouldn't fit the context of the passage. Muhammad was born way after we had already been exiled from the land of Israel. Its direction for how to live in the land of Israel when we arrive there from the desert. According to your interpretation, it says "When you arrive in the land of Israel, don't listen to the people who perform divination, because that disgusts G-d. In 1,500 years from now, when you are no longer in the land G-d will send a prophet from the sons of Ishamel..." This is a non sequitor, the end has nothing to do with the beginning. That is why I keep telling you, your interpretation doesn't make sense with the context.

I know this was long and I don't expect most people will read it. But maybe it will be useful for someone.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
I see from here that you didn't understand the problem I tried to explain to you with your interpretation. I'm not sure you will understand it this time either, but at least I want you to see my effort is not to disprove your religion, just to explain the passage. If its not true, then we shouldn't say it. So I will leave this here and maybe you will read it and it will be clearer to you, but I don't expect a response.
Let's use an ayah from the Qur'an:
alBakarah 2:6 "Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe."
I interpret this verse as a prophecy that there will come a type of disbeliever that is those who don't believe in global warming. And the ayah is saying that people in the world will warn these disbelievers about global warning, but it won't help - they still will not believe.


If I would say that, you will tell me that I'm crazy. You will tell me that this has nothing to do with the surah and it doesn't fit with what the context is talking about. You will tell me that I'm taking out one ayah and translating it in a way that has nothing to do with anything, so that I can use it against people who don't believe in global warming. If I would just look at the context, I will see that the "disbelievers" are the disbelievers in All-h and the "you" are the Muslims that believe in Him. And the ayah is saying that some people no matter how much a Muslim will try to convince them, they won't believe in All-h. This is the context of that verse and if I would just read the ayat before and after, I would see clearly that my interpretation doesn't relate to the context at all.

This is the same problem that I'm telling you that you're doing.

The passage that we were discussing is not Moses telling the Jews a prophecy about some prophet that will come to bring them a new law. That has nothing to do with the passage. Its a passage about Moses telling the Jews how they will be lead while they are in Israel. Here it is with my running commentary. Moses opens up "When you come to the Land that G-d is giving you". This is the first verse in that passage. So now we know that the context of the next verses has to do with something that will be relevant to coming to the land of Israel that the Jews were about to enter. What about it? "Don't learn to do the disgusting things that they do there". Moses is telling us that we are prohibited to copy the bad things that they do. But which bad things is he referring to? "There should not be in you one who passes his son or his daughter in fire..." Moses explains exactly what - first he speaks about worshiping Molech (that is passing one's child through fire) and then he goes on to list eight different types of divination techniques (kosem, inun, nihush, kishuf, hover hever, sho'el ov, sho'el yid'oni, doresh el hameithim). If you'd like I can explain them all to you, but otherwise you can do a little research for yourself or you can take my word for it. These 9 things are often mentioned together and they are prohibited forms of magic and divination. So Moses has said that we are prohibited to perform these types of techniques. Rather we should "be complete with G-d". We should turn to G-d rather than these techniques. Then it must be that Moses is making some contrast between these techniques and G-d's way. And in fact that's what the next verse does, "because these nations...they listen to [those that practice] inun and nihush (types of divination techniques to find out the future), but you G-d did not give [permission] to do [these things]." So the Jews, when they enter the land of Israel should not try to determine the future using these types of divination. It is prohibited to us. Then how are we to know what to do? "A prophet from among you, from your brothers, like me, G-d will stand up for you - to him you shall listen." You see the contrast there? Moses is saying, they listen to those that practice divination that is prohibited. But you Jews will not listen to them, but rather to the prophet that G-d will send you.

To say that it is a prophecy about Muhammad doesn't fit the context. Moses is creating a parallel between the prophet and those that practice divination. He isn't making a parallel between false prophets and true prophets. That he does at the end of the passage. So its not talking about laws from G-d. At the end of this passage Moses very clearly discusses false prophets. Over here he is comparing the prophet to the diviner. A diviner is someone who tells you about the future. If you want to know what your lucky lottery numbers are, you go to the diviner, he does whatever it is he does and he tells you your lucky numbers. Moses is telling the Jews, that we are not allowed to go to them. So then who should we go to? The prophet. The prophet can also see the future, except he does it by communicating with G-d rather than communicating with spirits and dead souls. So Moses is saying, don't go to these unholy diviners, go to the holy prophet to ask your questions and listen to him.

Then the Jews say, "what? we're going to have more prophets?" and Moses says, "Yes, you will. Because everything you asked from G-d when you were at Horeb on the day of gathering, saying: I [can] no longer hear the voice of G-d, my G-d and the great fire I [can] no longer see, and (ie. so that) I will not die." On that day that G-d spoke the commandments at Sinai, the Jews complained that the voice of G-d made them feel like they were going to die. So they asked that G-d not speak directly to them. "And G-d said, 'they have [said] well, [that] which they spoke. A prophet I will raise for them, from among their brothers and I will put My words in his mouth and he will speak to them, everything which I command him." G-d says, they are correct, its impossible for the entire nation to hear G-d speak to them. So from then on, when G-d wants to tell them something He will use a prophet as a medium. And then, lest we think that since G-d is not directly telling us what he wants, we could somehow ignore the prophet who is speaking in his name, "And it will be, the person who does not listen to My words that he will speak in My name, I will collect from him." Just because G-d is not telling us directly, is not an excuse to ignore the prophecy. On the other hand, even though G-d will send us prophets, doesn't mean that people can decided to become false prophets. And so the rest of the passage is dedicated towards prohibiting false prophets and differentiating between them.

And in fact, this is exactly what happened. All the prophets of the books of the prophets, brought us messages from G-d telling us to fix our ways. And when we didn't listen, G-d gave us the stick. And when king Saul did go to the diviner instead of the prophet? The next day him and his sons were dead on the field of battle.

As you can see, this whole passage is one continuous idea. We will go the the land of Israel and be exposed to people who use divination to find out the future. We may not perform this divination, but instead are required to turn to the prophet of the day, to find out what we the future holds for us. Then Moses explains how we merited to have prophets lead us during that time - because of our request at Mt. Sinai: G-d agreed to it and promised us that He would use prophets to speak to us. Lastly we are warned against false prophets and how to differentiate between them. This is not a prophecy about a specific prophet that will come 1500 years later. That wouldn't fit the context of the passage. Muhammad was born way after we had already been exiled from the land of Israel. Its direction for how to live in the land of Israel when we arrive there from the desert. According to your interpretation, it says "When you arrive in the land of Israel, don't listen to the people who perform divination, because that disgusts G-d. In 1,500 years from now, when you are no longer in the land G-d will send a prophet from the sons of Ishamel..." This is a non sequitor, the end has nothing to do with the beginning. That is why I keep telling you, your interpretation doesn't make sense with the context.

I know this was long and I don't expect most people will read it. But maybe it will be useful for someone.
I read it.
 

ukok102nak

Active Member
~;> to god all be the glory

by the way
. ... and as one brethren of ours
said before
who wants to be a prophet anyway
for all what we want is to serve
what is good and who cannot lie
so that everyone could live peacefully
until the time comes ... .


:ty:




godbless
unto all always
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Well, in that case I'd appreciate some feedback on my magnum opus.
Aramaic being very closely related to Hebrew, shares many, many common root words with it. Like this one here....
I understand what a 'Root' is and that completely unrelated words can have common roots. The language isn't built logically out of roots but is a normal language that sometimes uses meanings from roots and sometimes doesn't. Its not a programming language. Its a human language.
The word in the verse you quoted from Onkelos in your OP says "SHLIM" שלים. The word from Strong's that you are quoting is the Hebrew, "SHaLeM" שלם. The former is in Aramaic and the latter is in Hebrew. Stong's actually gives the parallel words in a number of languages in the latter part of the quote
I think in the conversation that this quote is from, you are saying (page 1) that the word doesn't mean what they think it means.
But in your OP you quoted Onkelos
Ditto here. I merely include this quote as an index back into the pages of posts.

Well my holy books says that everyone is Buddhist.. Muslims included.

:D
Is the Buddha such a tyrant?

There are two verses:

Deut. 18:15 "A prophet from among you, from your brothers like me, G-d will raise for you. To him you should listen."
Deut 18:18 "A prophet I will raise for them, from among their brothers like you. And I will put my words in his mouth and he will speak to them everything I command him."
I grasp this this concept in baby form. I'm neither here nor there about what a prophet is, but I like to think of them as people who are seeking truths in the Torah. It really works for me. I have heard that some Jewish sages will say the Torah contains a lot more than just words or even that it contains the universe. I think they would say that is a 'Mystical view' or the Torah or some such, however I think this is not an uncommon view. Anyway I try to think of the prophets both ways -- both as both people who hear a voice and people seeking in the Torah. I am quite skeptical about miraculous things now, perhaps since I've been exposed to too many fake and dramatic miracles in church services. It really makes an impact on a person to see that kind of thing.
Well he actually says both "from among you, from your brothers". So what is not clear to you from the second phrase has already been made clear in the first phrase. But besides that there are plenty of times in Tanach, where the speaker says "your brother" instead of "among you" or "from among you". Even in Deuteronomy itself which is pretty much one long speech by Moses to the Jews, we find it multiple times. Here's one from the the previous chapter:
17:15 "Place on yourselves the king whom G-d shall choose. From among your brothers place on yourselves a king. You may not put on yourselves a foreign man, which is not your brother.
But there are tons of examples there just in Deuteronomy alone.
I was able to follow this easily.

1- Jews believe no prophet has risen among them like Moses.

2- The prophecies in Jews have ended with a certain prophet.

Based on these two premises, one can reasonably conclude that the prophet must be out of (not from them)the Israelite, but in their brethren; the Ishmaelite, if the prophecy to be true.

I will try to be more clear.
First a correction:
1. Jews believe that no prophet has ever risen among us like Moses who could speak to G-d face to face. Besides for this aspect, there have been many prophets like Moses.
2. The Jewish prophets have temporarily ended at the beginning of the Temple era period. We expect prophecy to permanently return along with the messiah.

That being said, neither of these two points are relevant here. The passage in Deuteronomy in context is Moses giving the Jews general guidance for their upcoming entrance into the land of Israel. He isn't telling them prophecies, he's explaining how they should conduct themselves. Among the things they will need to know while in Israel, is that G-d will be sending them prophets in His name. Let's take a look at the passage:
I followed this easily.

As to the identity of the prophets, Moses iterates and reiterates it, to the extent that its frankly unbelievable that any other religion would lay claim to this verse.
A) "from your midst" - Moses is speaking to the Jews. "From your midst" is from the midst of the Jews. The prophet will be from the midst of the Jews. There is no other way to interpret that. That's simply what the phrase means.
B) "from your brothers" - Again as I pointed out in my previous response, this phrase is virtually identical to the first one. Its used to refer to someone from the among the Jewish people. Just like a king can only be chosen from among the Jews (17:15), the prophets as well will be from among the Jews. In fact the phraseology is almost identical: "from the midst of your brothers" in 17:15 and "from your midst, from your brothers" here.
C) "like me" - Moses doesn't qualify what aspect of him must other prophets have. Does the prophet have to have a Jewish mother and be raised in Egypt like Moses was? Presumably not. The simplest explanation is that Moses is confirming the previous two points: Just like I am from your midst and from your brothers, the next prophets will also be.
This is just getting redundant.

Thank you,
Please let me make it clear and easy for you, if any of the prophets who came after Moses,abrogated the Written laws of Moses, and brought a new book with new laws that was not from a written source, then your point will be valid , and true.

Otherwise, it will be dancing on words.

No, you are incorrect. You are interpolating into the text "like me - a bringer of Law". The text doesn't say that though and that is what makes my point valid. You are forcing a new concept that is not present in the text, without any basis. Any interpretation that you'll come out with based on this interpolation, is going to be incorrect. No where does the text explain that "like me" means "in my position as a law bringer". For some reason though, you're not relating to this problem. Its true that Moses also brought five books of the Torah. But he also did other things as well. Your choosing this particular aspect of Moses to interpolate into the text is clearly meant to help validate your interpretation of this passage as referring to Muhammad, despite the problem with doing so. And despite the fact that the rest of the verse and the rest of the passage doesn't lend itself to such an interpretation as I've laid out for you as clear as I possibly can.
Still able to follow all this easily.

And for the third time, the verse doesn't say that "like me" means "like Moses brought new Laws".
Ok, you have said it enough times now.

What are you saying, does not make any sense, because " prophet from them" encompasses all your description for a prophet. why God then takes all the trouble to say all unnecessary, and redundant extra words, which makes God say useless words,

It gives three different ways of saying that the prophet will be Jewish and there are still people in the world who think it could refer to a non-Jewish prophet! It looks like three was not enough!

The truth is, we also have different attributes that we learn out from the repetition as we always do:
"from your midst" - in Israel and not outside Israel
"from your brothers" and not from another nation
"like me" - whom you will trust (Ex. 14:31)
"will raise up for you" - and not for another nation
No really. That is enough times.
 

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
Meanwhile, aliens from the planet Sagittaria have been laughing their asses off at the fools here on earth, that really think God is earth centric and chose some special messengers...especially an illiterate fisherman who ate some bad mushrooms and tripped out in a cave. Just saying... ;)
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
I understand what a 'Root' is and that completely unrelated words can have common roots. The language isn't built logically out of roots but is a normal language that sometimes uses meanings from roots and sometimes doesn't. Its not a programming language. Its a human language.
I think in the conversation that this quote is from, you are saying (page 1) that the word doesn't mean what they think it means.
Ditto here. I merely include this quote as an index back into the pages of posts.


Is the Buddha such a tyrant?


I grasp this this concept in baby form. I'm neither here nor there about what a prophet is, but I like to think of them as people who are seeking truths in the Torah. It really works for me. I have heard that some Jewish sages will say the Torah contains a lot more than just words or even that it contains the universe. I think they would say that is a 'Mystical view' or the Torah or some such, however I think this is not an uncommon view. Anyway I try to think of the prophets both ways -- both as both people who hear a voice and people seeking in the Torah. I am quite skeptical about miraculous things now, perhaps since I've been exposed to too many fake and dramatic miracles in church services. It really makes an impact on a person to see that kind of thing.
I was able to follow this easily.



I followed this easily.

This is just getting redundant.



Still able to follow all this easily.

Ok, you have said it enough times now.



No really. That is enough times.
I was actually talking about the long one at the end that you said you read. But its fine. Sometimes I get nervous that I'm really bad at explaining what I mean to say, so at least in that regard you made me feel better.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Meanwhile, aliens from the planet Sagittaria have been laughing their asses off at the fools here on earth, that really think God is earth centric and chose some special messengers...especially an illiterate fisherman who ate some bad mushrooms and tripped out in a cave. Just saying... ;)

Haha. I was laughing all the way till the "illiterate fisherman" part... come on, now, really? :confused:
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
I was actually talking about the long one at the end that you said you read. But its fine. Sometimes I get nervous that I'm really bad at explaining what I mean to say, so at least in that regard you made me feel better.
:)
 

Britedream

Active Member
I see from here that you didn't understand the problem I tried to explain to you with your interpretation. I'm not sure you will understand it this time either, but at least I want you to see my effort is not to disprove your religion, just to explain the passage. If its not true, then we shouldn't say it. So I will leave this here and maybe you will read it and it will be clearer to you, but I don't expect a response.
Let's use an ayah from the Qur'an:
alBakarah 2:6 "Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe."
I interpret this verse as a prophecy that there will come a type of disbeliever that is those who don't believe in global warming. And the ayah is saying that people in the world will warn these disbelievers about global warning, but it won't help - they still will not believe.


If I would say that, you will tell me that I'm crazy. You will tell me that this has nothing to do with the surah and it doesn't fit with what the context is talking about. You will tell me that I'm taking out one ayah and translating it in a way that has nothing to do with anything, so that I can use it against people who don't believe in global warming. If I would just look at the context, I will see that the "disbelievers" are the disbelievers in All-h and the "you" are the Muslims that believe in Him. And the ayah is saying that some people no matter how much a Muslim will try to convince them, they won't believe in All-h. This is the context of that verse and if I would just read the ayat before and after, I would see clearly that my interpretation doesn't relate to the context at all.

This is the same problem that I'm telling you that you're doing.

The passage that we were discussing is not Moses telling the Jews a prophecy about some prophet that will come to bring them a new law. That has nothing to do with the passage. Its a passage about Moses telling the Jews how they will be lead while they are in Israel. Here it is with my running commentary. Moses opens up "When you come to the Land that G-d is giving you". This is the first verse in that passage. So now we know that the context of the next verses has to do with something that will be relevant to coming to the land of Israel that the Jews were about to enter. What about it? "Don't learn to do the disgusting things that they do there". Moses is telling us that we are prohibited to copy the bad things that they do. But which bad things is he referring to? "There should not be in you one who passes his son or his daughter in fire..." Moses explains exactly what - first he speaks about worshiping Molech (that is passing one's child through fire) and then he goes on to list eight different types of divination techniques (kosem, inun, nihush, kishuf, hover hever, sho'el ov, sho'el yid'oni, doresh el hameithim). If you'd like I can explain them all to you, but otherwise you can do a little research for yourself or you can take my word for it. These 9 things are often mentioned together and they are prohibited forms of magic and divination. So Moses has said that we are prohibited to perform these types of techniques. Rather we should "be complete with G-d". We should turn to G-d rather than these techniques. Then it must be that Moses is making some contrast between these techniques and G-d's way. And in fact that's what the next verse does, "because these nations...they listen to [those that practice] inun and nihush (types of divination techniques to find out the future), but you G-d did not give [permission] to do [these things]." So the Jews, when they enter the land of Israel should not try to determine the future using these types of divination. It is prohibited to us. Then how are we to know what to do? "A prophet from among you, from your brothers, like me, G-d will stand up for you - to him you shall listen." You see the contrast there? Moses is saying, they listen to those that practice divination that is prohibited. But you Jews will not listen to them, but rather to the prophet that G-d will send you.

To say that it is a prophecy about Muhammad doesn't fit the context. Moses is creating a parallel between the prophet and those that practice divination. He isn't making a parallel between false prophets and true prophets. That he does at the end of the passage. So its not talking about laws from G-d. At the end of this passage Moses very clearly discusses false prophets. Over here he is comparing the prophet to the diviner. A diviner is someone who tells you about the future. If you want to know what your lucky lottery numbers are, you go to the diviner, he does whatever it is he does and he tells you your lucky numbers. Moses is telling the Jews, that we are not allowed to go to them. So then who should we go to? The prophet. The prophet can also see the future, except he does it by communicating with G-d rather than communicating with spirits and dead souls. So Moses is saying, don't go to these unholy diviners, go to the holy prophet to ask your questions and listen to him.

Then the Jews say, "what? we're going to have more prophets?" and Moses says, "Yes, you will. Because everything you asked from G-d when you were at Horeb on the day of gathering, saying: I [can] no longer hear the voice of G-d, my G-d and the great fire I [can] no longer see, and (ie. so that) I will not die." On that day that G-d spoke the commandments at Sinai, the Jews complained that the voice of G-d made them feel like they were going to die. So they asked that G-d not speak directly to them. "And G-d said, 'they have [said] well, [that] which they spoke. A prophet I will raise for them, from among their brothers and I will put My words in his mouth and he will speak to them, everything which I command him." G-d says, they are correct, its impossible for the entire nation to hear G-d speak to them. So from then on, when G-d wants to tell them something He will use a prophet as a medium. And then, lest we think that since G-d is not directly telling us what he wants, we could somehow ignore the prophet who is speaking in his name, "And it will be, the person who does not listen to My words that he will speak in My name, I will collect from him." Just because G-d is not telling us directly, is not an excuse to ignore the prophecy. On the other hand, even though G-d will send us prophets, doesn't mean that people can decided to become false prophets. And so the rest of the passage is dedicated towards prohibiting false prophets and differentiating between them.

And in fact, this is exactly what happened. All the prophets of the books of the prophets, brought us messages from G-d telling us to fix our ways. And when we didn't listen, G-d gave us the stick. And when king Saul did go to the diviner instead of the prophet? The next day him and his sons were dead on the field of battle.

As you can see, this whole passage is one continuous idea. We will go the the land of Israel and be exposed to people who use divination to find out the future. We may not perform this divination, but instead are required to turn to the prophet of the day, to find out what we the future holds for us. Then Moses explains how we merited to have prophets lead us during that time - because of our request at Mt. Sinai: G-d agreed to it and promised us that He would use prophets to speak to us. Lastly we are warned against false prophets and how to differentiate between them. This is not a prophecy about a specific prophet that will come 1500 years later. That wouldn't fit the context of the passage. Muhammad was born way after we had already been exiled from the land of Israel. Its direction for how to live in the land of Israel when we arrive there from the desert. According to your interpretation, it says "When you arrive in the land of Israel, don't listen to the people who perform divination, because that disgusts G-d. In 1,500 years from now, when you are no longer in the land G-d will send a prophet from the sons of Ishamel..." This is a non sequitor, the end has nothing to do with the beginning. That is why I keep telling you, your interpretation doesn't make sense with the context.

I know this was long and I don't expect most people will read it. But maybe it will be useful for someone.

Tumah, please, leave Islam and Judaism out of your mind, and come to the verse with out a bias, if you ever want to understand my point. I will show you, how it can be understood:
The verse from KVJ :

I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

if I were to give the verse above to someone living in mars, and asked him to explain this verse to me, he would say that:

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren."
means: someone is going to raise a prophet for a group "A" from among their brethren group "B".
if I were to say to him, No, He will raise them a prophet from them-self, he will say: you are wrong, group "A" can't be a brethren of itself, if that someone means from themself, He would have said "from among them" instead.

then, he will go on to say: the prophet will be like you. That someone will put the words in his mouth; means that prophet will say all what that someone whisper to him.

Now this also is what I have shown you; Ishmaelite and Israelite are brethren:

Genesis 16:11 " And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction."


Genesis 16:12 "And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren."

The key points in the explanation are:

1- The 12 tribes were with Moses at that time, and addressed as single racial entity; " raise them" , so one can't be a brethren of himself . God said among their brethren, not among them; "them" encompasses all the Israelite who were with Moses at that time.

2- Putting the words in his mouth, meaning the info that the prophet has, did not come from an earlier written source.


Whether you accept it or not that's up to you, but please do not say, the verse does not lend itself to my explanation.
 
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