According to the Bible: All prophets before Muhammad were Muslims !!

[Tumah]

I am not ignoring anything, but for you to take one point in his life, and ignore the other points; that is the problem.

I understand why you feel this way, but you have to realize that when the verse uses specific phraseology that matches the phraseology it used in prophecy, its expressing intent. Its telling the reader to consider that verse as the fulfillment of the prophecy.

Were that not so, we wouldn't have needed the fulfillment verse: Ishmael had already lived with Isaac from the time he was born, until he was removed from the premises, so the prophecy wouldn't have added new information.

The verse says he would live on the face of his brothers. Isaac is one brother who lived in Cana'an. The sons of Keturah are six that lived in the Arabian peninsula. Although Ishmael probably did live in Cana'an for a time, living near Isaac wouldn't have fulfilled the plural language of the prophecy. Living with the sons of Keturah would.

The fulfillment verse puts Ishmael to the south of Cana'an. Living in proximity to Cana'an wouldn't be considered living near Isaac, because Isaac's family didn't hold Cana'an. It would put him right among the area settled by the sons of Keturah.

Why I mentioned Abraham?.. for number of reasons, one that Isaac and Abraham lived together, anyone is living near Abraham would be living near Isaac,

It doesn't say "living near" and it doesn't say "his brother". It says "on the face of" and it says "his brothers".

second, Abraham -you Believed to have sons from Katureh- and Ishmael is dwelling with them. but those sons never visited Abraham, nor he visited them, or he asked Ishmael about them; that means they didn't exist, which puts your claim that Ismael dwelled with the sons of Katureh at odd.

I don't understand what you are saying here. The verse says Abraham had 6 sons. Just because we don't see communication between them, doesn't mean they don't exist. It just means that there is nothing of value to be learned from any communication that may have occurred. And the verse says he had six sons...

In a later chapter - as I pointed out - it goes so far as to call Midianites as Ishmaelites. Midian is one of the 6 sons. This would be a very odd thing if Ishmael and Midian had nothing to do with each other.

 

[McBell]

Please, leave Mohammad alone, we are not discussing him. Do not try to avoid my question.

The whole damn thread is about Mohammed....

 

[Shadow Wolf]

After 12 pages, has it been stressed that linguistically, yes, they were muslim, but a "capitol M-Muslim" they were not.

 

[Britedream]

I understand why you feel this way, but you have to realize that when the verse uses specific phraseology that matches the phraseology it used in prophecy, its expressing intent. Its telling the reader to consider that verse as the fulfillment of the prophecy.

Were that not so, we wouldn't have needed the fulfillment verse: Ishmael had already lived with Isaac from the time he was born, until he was removed from the premises, so the prophecy wouldn't have added new information.

The verse says he would live on the face of his brothers. Isaac is one brother who lived in Cana'an. The sons of Keturah are six that lived in the Arabian peninsula. Although Ishmael probably did live in Cana'an for a time, living near Isaac wouldn't have fulfilled the plural language of the prophecy. Living with the sons of Keturah would.

The fulfillment verse puts Ishmael to the south of Cana'an. Living in proximity to Cana'an wouldn't be considered living near Isaac, because Isaac's family didn't hold Cana'an. It would put him right among the area settled by the sons of Keturah.


It doesn't say "living near" and it doesn't say "his brother". It says "on the face of" and it says "his brothers".

I don't understand what you are saying here. The verse says Abraham had 6 sons. Just because we don't see communication between them, doesn't mean they don't exist. It just means that there is nothing of value to be learned from any communication that may have occurred. And the verse says he had six sons...

In a later chapter - as I pointed out - it goes so far as to call Midianites as Ishmaelites. Midian is one of the 6 sons. This would be a very odd thing if Ishmael and Midian had nothing to do with each other.

You are making assumption based faith, Katureh is controversial figure, So Katurah, could be Hagar, How come Abraham had these sons without traveling to Hager?.

I don't understand what you mean by "it", in "it doesn't say "living..""

No, my point is, They are part of his family, at least we should see them mentioned by Abraham. there aren't in his life.

 

[Britedream]

The whole damn thread is about Mohammed....

Please answer the question.

 

[Tumah]

You are making assumption based faith, Katureh is controversial figure, So Katurah, could be Hagar, How come Abraham had these sons without traveling to Hager?.

There's no assumption here. The verse says that Abraham took Keturah for a wife and she bore him six boys. There's no controversy about that.

According to the opinion that Keturah is Hagar, after Sarah died, he brought her back to his home.

I don't understand what you mean by it, in it doesn't say "living.."

I mean to say that when you pointed out that Ishmael would have been living near Isaac. The prophecy verse doesn't say that Ishmael would be "living near" his brother. It says he would be living "on the face of" his brothers. So living near Isaac wouldn't have been a fulfillment of the prophecy.

No, my point is, There are part of his family, at least we should see them mentioned with Abraham. there aren't his life.

They are minor figures. That Tanach is not a history book. It doesn't record every event that ever happened. It only records information we can learn from. If there is nothing to learn from, it won't be recorded. These are not random stories about people, they are stories that teach us different things that we need to know. So the fact that there is almost no interaction with them, just means that they had nothing important to teach us.

 

[Britedream]

There's no assumption here. The verse says that Abraham took Keturah for a wife and she bore him six boys. There's no controversy about that.

According to the opinion that Keturah is Hagar, after Sarah died, he brought her back to his home.


I mean to say that when you pointed out that Ishmael would have been living near Isaac. The prophecy verse doesn't say that Ishmael would be "living near" his brother. It says he would be living "on the face of" his brothers. So living near Isaac wouldn't have been a fulfillment of the prophecy.


They are minor figures. That Tanach is not a history book. It doesn't record every event that ever happened. It only records information we can learn from. If there is nothing to learn from, it won't be recorded. These are not random stories about people, they are stories that teach us different things that we need to know. So the fact that there is almost no interaction with them, just means that they had nothing important to teach us.

This opinion makes the matter even more complicated:

According to the opinion that Keturah is Hagar, after Sarah died, he brought her back to his home.

This makes this verse "And he (Ishmael) shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.’ (Genesis 16:12). " very accurate.

Sorry, it is getting late for me, I will address the matter with you tomorrow. Thanks

 

[Britedream]

interesting Jewish site to read about Katureh.

For the people who can read the plain biblical texts know full well that Keturah is an entirely different person than Hagar. However, for those that twist things around because they cannot deal with the fact that the Torah and the Tanach are full of contradictions, they have to do theological acrobatics in order for things to sit well in their unstable mind

http://ancientjudaism.homestead.com/Keturah.html

Why do I think it is Important?.

1- if you compare this, with what I said about the verse in my post #173 , that they had to try to twist the words, in order for their interpretation to be acceptable, you will find it carrying the same meaning.

2- What the site said about Katureh, answered the question, why did not Abraham, visit , or asked about his Katureh sons?. the site said that Katurah wasn't a concubine, but a wife that Abraham married after Sarah death.

So her sons are living with Abraham; no need to visit or ask about them.

3- For the Katureh sons being with Abraham, makes the word " All " in " And he (Ishmael) shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.’ (Genesis 16:12)" very accurate, it does not matter if Ishmael at the end of his life went some where else and died.

As to that, reading the verse as is, remove all the problems involved, And makes my points that I raised earlier, very clear.