According to the Bible: All prophets before Muhammad were Muslims !!

[Britedream]

I am totally confused here. I thought you were trying to prove that a passage in Tanach was a prophecy about Muhammad.
Then you started bringing Jewish Midrash to prove your point about a passage in Tanach.
Now you are saying that you aren't trying to prove your religion from the Tanach.

What are have we been doing this whole time? Because I'm starting to get the feeling that I totally didn't catch on.

I am not trying to prove my religion, I am trying to prove that your interpretation goes agaist the verse in question, and I still believe so. didn't I say before, Islam or Muhammad weren't the subject of our discussion?.

 

[Tumah]

I am not trying to prove my religion, I am trying to prove that your interpretation goes agaist the verse in question.

Ok. So we've established that according to other verses, the only brothers that are mentioned in conjunction with Ishmael are the sons of Keturah. They all lived on the Arabian peninsula and this fulfills the prophecy about him nicely. The actual language employed in the passage that is allegedly speaking about Muhammad does not lend itself to such an interpretation based on other passages that employ the same exact language to clearly indicate a Jewish person.

What else is left?

 

[Britedream]

Ok. So we've established that according to other verses, the only brothers that are mentioned in conjunction with Ishmael are the sons of Keturah. They all lived on the Arabian peninsula and this fulfills the prophecy about him nicely. The actual language employed in the passage that is allegedly speaking about Muhammad does not lend itself to such an interpretation based on other passages that employ the same exact language to clearly indicate a Jewish person.

What else is left?

Do you really believe that Abraham has sons, that they did not come to visit him all his life, nor he went to see them, or even ask about them?.
On the contrary whenever you see Abraham with Ismael you see them alone.

No we did not establish that Ishmael didn't dwell near his father.

 

[Tumah]

Do you really believe that Abraham has sons, that they did not come to visit him all his life, nor he went to see them, or even ask about them?

I believe he did visit Ishmael, since this features in the Midrashim. I don't see any Midrashim about him visiting his sons from Keturah. But that doesn't say much, since he may have sent them off towards the end of his life. But that's neither here nor there.

On the contrary whenever you see Abraham with Ismael you see them alone.

Right. Since G-d told Abraham to listen to Sarah's command to send Ishmael out, the purpose being to separate him from Isaac, the only way for Abraham to visit Ishmael is to do so alone.

No we did not established that Ishmael didn't dwell near his father.

I'm sure at some point he did. But at least, by the time he sends out the sons of Keturah, Ishmael is not living in Abraham's home. And for the important part: when the verse speaks about the fulfillment of the prophecy of him living among his brothers, it mentions it in connection to his living in the Arabian peninsula and its environs. Who cares if Ishmael had or had not spent some small or large amount of time near Abraham? The point is whether "among his brothers" referred to Isaac, not Abraham. I don't really get why you keep trying to push him living near Abraham as though its a game changer. We've both brought a Midrash that mentions that he did. I don't understand what that has to do with anything though.
It seems like you're trying to ignore what the verse explicitly says (Ishmael living in the Arabian peninsula in connection with language that mirrors the prophecy of him living among his brothers), in favor of a contradictory implicit statement (that Ishmael lived near Abraham because they loved each other) that you'd like to pull out of it.

 

[Britedream]

I believe he did visit Ishmael, since this features in the Midrashim. I don't see any Midrashim about him visiting his sons from Keturah. But that doesn't say much, since he may have sent them off towards the end of his life. But that's neither here nor there.


Right. Since G-d told Abraham to listen to Sarah's command to send Ishmael out, the purpose being to separate him from Isaac, the only way for Abraham to visit Ishmael is to do so alone.


I'm sure at some point he did. But at least, by the time he sends out the sons of Keturah, Ishmael is not living in Abraham's home. And for the important part: when the verse speaks about the fulfillment of the prophecy of him living among his brothers, it mentions it in connection to his living in the Arabian peninsula and its environs. Who cares if Ishmael had or had not spent some small or large amount of time near Abraham? The point is whether "among his brothers" referred to Isaac, not Abraham. I don't really get why you keep trying to push him living near Abraham as though its a game changer. We've both brought a Midrash that mentions that he did. I don't understand what that has to do with anything though.
It seems like you're trying to ignore what the verse explicitly says (Ishmael living in the Arabian peninsula in connection with language that mirrors the prophecy of him living among his brothers), in favor of a contradictory implicit statement (that Ishmael lived near Abraham because they loved each other) that you'd like to pull out of it.

I am not ignoring anything, but for you to take one point in his life, and ignore the other points; that is the problem.

Why I mentioned Abraham?.. for number of reasons, one that Isaac and Abraham lived together, anyone is living near Abraham would be living near Isaac, second, Abraham -you Believed to have sons from Katureh- and Ishmael is dwelling with them. but those sons never visited Abraham, nor he visited them, or he asked Ishmael about them; that means they didn't exist, which puts your claim that Ismael dwelled with the sons of Katureh at odd.

 

[Britedream]

For those who keep saying I prove Islam through others: I don't believe in Islam just because Muhammad came from Ishmael, at all.

I believe, faith comes out from believe, and believe comes out from evidence, So first Mohammad pbuh, had to prove his prophethood first, for me to believe in Islam.

 

[McBell]

Please keep the non sense of yours to yourself, no muslim on this plant will prove his religion from the Hebrew Bible, and it is foolish to think so.

Yet here YOU are....

Oh, I get it, you are not Muslim....

 

[Britedream]

Yet here YOU re....

Oh, I get it, you are not Muslim....

I star to believe that, your job here is to talk about people, and not to talk with them

 

[McBell]

I star to believe that, your job here is talk about people, and not to talk with them

Its ok.
Most people dislike when their agenda is pointed out.

 

[Britedream]

Its ok.
Most people dislike when their agenda is pointed out.

Very true

 

[McBell]

Very true

So you have calmed down now?

 

[Britedream]

I am not angry with you, I only see you rarely discuss anything, mostly you talk about the posters, not with them.

 

[McBell]

I am not angry with you, I only see you rarely discuss anything, mostly you talk about the posters, not with them.

What?
I am discussing your need to shove Mohammed in the Bible.
A need that is so great, you cannot see that you were shown to be flat out wrong.

IF you honestly and truly did not so desperately need Mohammed to be in the Bible, why are you STILL trying to force him into it?

 

[Britedream]

What?
I am discussing your need to shove Mohammed in the Bible.
A need that is so great, you cannot see that you were shown to be flat out wrong.

IF you honestly and truly did not so desperately need Mohammed to be in the Bible, why are you STILL trying to force him into it?

Either you do't understand arguments rules, or you do't understand what you are reading.

I objected to the interpretation of the verse, because it results in impossible meaning.

But people like you, that doesn't know what it means to read the verse that way, and because Islam makes them tick, they jump to the same conclusion that you have.

 

[McBell]

Either you do't understand arguments rules, or you do't understand what you are reading.

Or you are just plain flat out wrong and are far to butt hurt to just let it go....
Which at this point of the thread, is all you are reinforcing.

I objected to the interpretation of the verse, because it results in impossible meaning.

Seems you are the only one thinking it results in an impossible meaning.
And I strongly suspect that is because you are still trying to force Mohammed into it when he was never in it.

But people like you, that does know what it means to read the verse that way, and because Islam makes them tick, they jump to the same conclusion that you have.

feel free to make up and or believe whatever nonsense helps you sleep at night.
Your fantasies do not effect me here in reality..

 

[Britedream]

Or you are just plain flat out wrong and are far to butt hurt to just let it go....
Which at this point of the thread, is all you are reinforcing.



Seems you are the only one thinking it results in an impossible meaning.
And I strongly suspect that is because you are still trying to force Mohammed into it when he was never in it.


feel free to make up and or believe whatever nonsense helps you sleep at night.
Your fantasies do not effect me here in reality..

I don't need you to write me an empty composition.

If You were in front of me, and I told you that I will give your brother a 100 dollar, would you understand that I am going to give you the 100?.

Now, if you claim to understand, tell me the difference.

 

[McBell]

I don't need you to write me an empty composition.

If You are in front of me, and I told you that I will give your brother 100 dollar, would you understand that you I am going to give the 100?.

Now, if you claim to understand, tell the difference.

Interesting that Mohammed would STILL not be involved in any way....

 

[Britedream]

Interesting that Mohammed would STILL not be involved in any way....

This is not an answer to my question .

 

[McBell]

This is not an answer to my question .

Mohammed is not in that situation any more than Mohammed is in the verse you claim he is in.

Thus your scenario actually hurts your "argument".

That you do not understand this is not the least bit surprising.

 

[Britedream]

Mohammed is not in that situation any more than Mohammed is in the verse you claim he is in.

Thus your scenario actually hurts your "argument".

That you do not understand this is not the least bit surprising.

Please, leave Mohammad alone, we are not discussing him. Do not try to avoid my question.