Jesus Dying for Our Sins

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

An heaven if even a possibility is a leap of Faith
An heaven polluted by human bias is complete non starter

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Now we're talking. I honestly mean no ill will.

I know we need a laugh , without humor we got not so much , joker in RL honest .
Christianty IMHO in 2016 is the very fabric of the little human rights we struggled for in a world of elites.
Need to cherish those rights as the people just waiting to rip them away.
It worry's me when people undermine the middle ground, without Christians is no middle between Thiest and Athiest ?

 

[Astravalon]

What do you mean settle for less?

Yes Jesus died for the Church while they were still sinners, otherwise they would never have came to believe. He died for exactly whom He intended to die for, and all whom He died for have believed.

Is he, or is he not, the savior of "the world"?
Or, is he merely the savior of only a handful thereof?

Why? God permits things to happen for His greater purposes, but that doesn't mean He is responsible for a specific evil.

Of course He is. As we all know, with power comes responsibility.
Therefore, if one is all powerful, then it would follow that one is all
responsible. Not that I see Him as guilty, and I'm not blaming Him
for some fault (I think this world is designed the way it is for the
purposes of our edification), but the responsibility is all His as the
manufacturer and designer of it.

They were good and chose to renounce it, doesn't mean they were less good because that choice was open to them.

Then acting upon that choice would also have been a good thing
and not cause for punishment.

-

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

In christianity we have Jesus
Who never forced his will on anyone even while being nailed to a cross ( personally would not of got me there alive I would of seized my chance , finish pilot make it worthwhile)
Jesus feeds 5000 and never discriminates against any of the crowd( 5000 is a bit of everything)
We have Thomas apostle who doubted amongst 12( 11:1) we didn't attack him or try persude him for his time as Athiest only god himself through the prophet if need be can do this ( not attack ,persuade by reason not force ), no human .Apostles didn't even try to persuade Thomas .
Is lots of parable of Jesus doing the right thing , the sustainable thing.
Could go on and on and on without a single quote from scripture
However I save you all from it , only hinduism matches and they more liberal free thinkers than us.
However thier own humans rights in some of thier own countries are questionable .
I'm a christian as I believe in the one god and is no other suitable choices that fit my own philosophy of what God intended for his nippers should that be the case.
Goosebumps says it is to myself I can't ignore them

 

[Demonslayer]

Need to cherish those rights as the people just waiting to rip them away.

I don't think so. I don't know a single atheist who thinks religious rights should be taken away. I don't know a single human being, religious or otherwise, who thinks this.

What will happen, IMO, is that in another generation or so we'll see religion morph into a far less literal thing. People will keep some of the traditions and the symbolism, but no longer truly believe in an actual, literal God-being.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Or maybe atheism will morph to something where people see the existence of God as a very real possibility and can be glad about it.

 

[Skwim]

Missed points
Not all Christians believe in the trinity, that Christ was actually God. Some believe him to be the Son of God a separate entity.

Fine, then they can disregard what I've said.

Most Christians believe hell to be created by Satan after he was cast out of heaven and that man introduced himself to hell and Satan in the garden of Eden. It was not created by God but by sinners.

Don't know why when Matthew 25:41 says

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:"​

Opinion
You opinion is that God wants his creations to need him but my opinion is that God wants his creations to chose correctly, to aspire to greatness. Sorta of like parents and there Children. Parents want there children to achieve more, live longer and be happy.

But do they face them with the very real prospect of ending up in the everlasting fires of hell? Of course not. Parents are much more just than your god.

Is he, or is he not, the savior of "the world"?
Or, is he merely the savior of only a handful thereof?

Good point. As it turns out, it's just a handful.

Or maybe atheism will morph to something where people see the existence of God as a very real possibility and can be glad about it.

Don't hold your breath, Atheism will be around as long as there are thinking, questioning people. Those not so thinking and questioning will remain governed by their needs.


.

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

I don't think so. I don't know a single atheist who thinks religious rights should be taken away. I don't know a single human being, religious or otherwise, who thinks this.

What will happen, IMO, is that in another generation or so we'll see religion morph into a far less literal thing. People will keep some of the traditions and the symbolism, but no longer truly believe in an actual, literal God-being.

I'm not talking about religious rights , more about human rights , no I believe quite to the contary human rights will also morph into a less literal thing .
Just cause we destroy christianity doesn't mean you still won't be a idolater in the eyes of the elite that rule your mortal destiny.
What you an I think doesn't matter
You are destined to be born ,go to school , accept a way of life ,get a job ,pay your taxes and die

 

[bobhikes]

Fine, then they can disregard what I've said.

Don't know why when Matthew 25:41 says

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:"​

But do they face them with the very real prospect of ending up in the everlasting fires of hell? Of course not. Parents are much more just than your god.


.

Several Christian churches do not take all the biblical quotes as literal. If they did Hell is also not everlasting according to revelations King James Bible
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Revelations 20:14.

God is the parent that is linked to your mind. When you kill someone God knows your very Emotions, actions and thoughts as well as those of the person you killed. All of us are Gods children and linked to God biblically through the soul, more likely the mind. If God tried to stop you short of taking away your own will and you still did harm to another sibling what should god do. Let you stay in Gods family. It is unfortunate that there is no other family to adopt you, only others like you that have harmed others. Perhaps, outside of Gods existence is only fire or energy and your soul is eternal. Who doomed who? Being the father that God is when God died on earth God spent time in Hell probably trying to save those and found God couldn't without taking away there will. God decided in revelations to end its existence rather then allow them to be tortured forever.

Now the rules that separate us from God as well as the holy books are very miss understood. If God is in your mind/soul you need to just hear God and not the words written or spoken by man. The written and spoken words should be the guide to god, the rules come from God himself. Which is why there are so many religions and even within these religions multiple understandings.

 

[Demonslayer]

Or maybe atheism will morph to something where people see the existence of God as a very real possibility and can be glad about it.

That sounds like Deism. The belief that there is some God-ish thing out there, without the need to invent a backstory about that thing.

 

[Demonslayer]

I'm not talking about religious rights , more about human rights , no I believe quite to the contary human rights will also morph into a less literal thing .

You think we have fewer human rights these days? I see it as the opposite.

Just cause we destroy christianity doesn't mean you still won't be a idolater in the eyes of the elite that rule your mortal destiny.

I'm not sure I fully understand this. One thing though, no one is destroying Christianity. It's dying on it's own for two reasons, in my opinion.

1) in this age we don't need fantastical stories to explain things we don't understand. We used to think Down's Syndrome was demonic possession, that earthquakes were God's wrath, etc. The more science explains the natural world, the less need we have for supernatural explanations

2) Vocal, fundamentalist Christians are giving the religion a bad name. It used to be that most people equated Christianity with goodness, kindness, etc. These days when you turn on the TV what do you see? Christians with anti-gay slurs on cardboard signs protesting angrily about gay marriage, or in front of abortion clinics. Christian pastors saying things like gay people should be kept behind fences (Pastor Charles Worley) or that the government should be putting gay people to death (Pastor Steven Anderson). If anyone is destroying Christianity, it's the vocal group of modern Christians who are putting a very ugly and hateful face on the religion.

Just my opinions, please take it as such.

 

[Demonslayer]

What you an I think doesn't matter

Speak for yourself, everything I say is very, very important.

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

You think we have fewer human rights these days? I see it as the opposite.



I'm not sure I fully understand this. One thing though, no one is destroying Christianity. It's dying on it's own for two reasons, in my opinion.

1) in this age we don't need fantastical stories to explain things we don't understand. We used to think Down's Syndrome was demonic possession, that earthquakes were God's wrath, etc. The more science explains the natural world, the less need we have for supernatural explanations

2) Vocal, fundamentalist Christians are giving the religion a bad name. It used to be that most people equated Christianity with goodness, kindness, etc. These days when you turn on the TV what do you see? Christians with anti-gay slurs on cardboard signs protesting angrily about gay marriage, or in front of abortion clinics. Christian pastors saying things like gay people should be kept behind fences (Pastor Charles Worley) or that the government should be putting gay people to death (Pastor Steven Anderson). If anyone is destroying Christianity, it's the vocal group of modern Christians who are putting a very ugly and hateful face on the religion.

Just my opinions, please take it as such.

Loosing religion would remove fascism ? That inherant problem with society .
I agree over vocal fascist Christianty very unhealthy .

 

[Demonslayer]

Loosing religion would remove fascism ? That inherant problem with society .
I agree over vocal fascist Christianty very unhealthy .

Happy to be chatting with you today SpeaksForTheTrees. I think any misunderstanding we have might be coming from a language barrier. Do you mind if I ask, is English not your first language?

 

[viole]

Hell is a necessary result of God's nature being just, not something made for fun, and punishing those who are wicked. God had mercy on the wicked though, and planned that He would come to earth and take the punishment we deserved, bearing it on the cross. It is no ploy, Jesus truly endured that suffering and pain. And of course He saw it coming, He had planned it from the beginning, but being planned doesn't make it any less painful, in fact it means it was no accident but shows God's great love for us since the beginning.

If it was from the beginning, He should have dispatched Jesus a few centuries before. Instead of drowning virtually everybody.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Ingledsva]

OT we was discussing , adam and eve as jewish ? Was my point in defence of there aint no Jesus here , was just making it clear there religion has even more holes.
using texts from different thread thought was against rules.? I am a christian as a way of life.
Your nothing but a ignorant troll with some problem in your life that makes you bitter
Just as you don't have , you do not want anyone else to have also , the lowest kind imho

Stop the bull of attacking me rather then the posts.

BULL! You said the Hebrew and Christian religions were not true!

And now you are saying you are a Christian, and are arguing over the Adam and Eve story, - from the Hebrew religion.

You said the Christian religion was not true, - yet you believe the Jesus story from it .

None of it true,I found God without books or should I say he found me .
It doesn't matter , it feels warm in his light no matter what you say.
God showed me the truth about all of it .

So what exactly are you?

*

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

If it was from the beginning, He should have dispatched Jesus a few centuries before. Instead of drowning virtually everybody.

Ciao

- viole

He spared some didn't He, just as through Jesus He eternally spares His remnant.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Is he, or is he not, the savior of "the world"?
Or, is he merely the savior of only a handful thereof?

Jesus' sacrifice was certainly sufficient for everyone who ever lived. But it was intended for some, His people whom He saves. Jesus doesn't fail to save anyone.

Of course He is. As we all know, with power comes responsibility.
Therefore, if one is all powerful, then it would follow that one is all
responsible. Not that I see Him as guilty, and I'm not blaming Him
for some fault (I think this world is designed the way it is for the
purposes of our edification), but the responsibility is all His as the
manufacturer and designer of it.

God ordains all things to pass, sure, but the blame lies with the human being for hating God and rebelling against Him.

Then acting upon that choice would also have been a good thing
and not cause for punishment.-

Being good, doesn't necessarily make everything you do good.

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Stop the bull of attacking me rather then the posts.

BULL! You said the Hebrew and Christian religions were not true!

And now you are saying you are a Christian, and are arguing over the Adam and Eve story, - from the Hebrew religion.

You said the Christian religion was not true, - yet you believe the Jesus story from it .



So what exactly are you?

*

Stop the bull of attacking me rather then the posts.

BULL! You said the Hebrew and Christian religions were not true!

And now you are saying you are a Christian, and are arguing over the Adam and Eve story, - from the Hebrew religion.

You said the Christian religion was not true, - yet you believe the Jesus story from it .



So what exactly are you?

*

You want me to prove truth from narrative, the narrative is questionable ,full of ifs no factual proof . Adam and Eve not Jewish is a fact .
Adapa or Adam was Arabic is proof they had religion before Judaism was even thought about , oldest relics of religion come from 3400 km further East .So if civilization was 3400 km away how can Adam and Eve be Jewish ?
Jog on
I'm unorthodox christian , strictly speaking I should be Muslim , but that's not my culture nor do I believe God requires such prominence in my day to day life, so I remain christian.
I don't consider converting to Judaism I would be required to hate all idolaters , my parents , family and friends ,Christians Hindus , is just to much hate imho

 

[Ingledsva]

Missed points
Not all Christians believe in the trinity, that Christ was actually God. Some believe him to be the Son of God a separate entity.
Most Christians believe hell to be created by Satan after he was cast out of heaven and that man introduced himself to hell and Satan in the garden of Eden. It was not created by God but by sinners.
What a God that lived on earth sacrificed (Heavenly residence or Time with his actual creation, He still felt pain(emotional and physical), and Time in Hell before ascension). All the aspects that Humans have to endure.

Opinion
You opinion is that God wants his creations to need him but my opinion is that God wants his creations to chose correctly, to aspire to greatness. Sorta of like parents and there Children. Parents want there children to achieve more, live longer and be happy.

The problem with this is that it doesn't say the serpent is Satan, nor that Satan created Hell.

It says this serpent is punished by being turned into an actual snake - tasting the air - forever.

That obviously isn't the Satan character.

Tanakh doesn't have a Hell. All - both good and bad, - go to Sheol to await the Messiah.

Christianity came up with the Hell idea after contact with other religions.

And they tell us God created it for Satan.

Mat 25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

As to that God-sacrifice sentence - why do people consider it a sacrifice - when according to Christianity - no actual death has occurred.

If I run into a building, saving children, but die. People will say I sacrificed myself for the children. However, if I'm a super-being and pop out of the ash three days later, unharmed, I obviously actually sacrificed nothing.

*