Jesus Dying for Our Sins

[Astravalon]

Those who are not God's children deserve punishment for their wrongdoing, they do not reform and they rebel against Him till their deaths

Firstly, I think the whole distinction between "God's
children" and "not God's children" is a false one. All
creation is His children in the truest sense of the term,
even more so than my kids are mine.

Secondly, the idea that punishment for wrongdoing is
strictly reserved for those who are "not God's children"
seems off, biblically, given the following verses:

Proverbs 3:12: the LORD disciplines those he
loves, as a father the son he delights in.

Hebrews 12:6: For whom the Lord loves he
chastens, and whips every son whom he
receives.

Revelation 3:19: As many as I love, I rebuke
and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Deuteronomy 8:5: You shall also consider in
your heart, that, as a man chastens his son, so
the LORD your God chastens you.

Psalm 94:12: Blessed is the man whom you
chasten, O LORD, and teach him out of your law;

Proverbs 13:24: He that spares his rod hates his
son: but he that loves him chastens him betimes.​

Personally, I think that the rain falls on everyone
regardless of which club they sign up with, but there it
is. As far as God's love goes, no one is left out, and
as far as the challenges this world provides (what
might otherwise be classified as "punishment" -- though I
seriously doubt that it is; karma maybe), again, no one
is left out.

-

 

[viole]

He spared some didn't He, just as through Jesus He eternally spares His remnant.

Actually, I was humorous, but you seem to be serious.

Just to set my parameters straight: do you really believe that the whole human species today derives from that Noah family?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Ingledsva]

I believe there is biblical support for the idea that the sin nature was passed down through the father. Since according to the scriptures, Jesus had no literal, biological human father, the sin nature was not passed down to Him. Eve was the one who sinned first. However, sin did not enter the world through her. It entered through Adam. Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned. Romans 5:12

....

Actually that is not man as in a male, - it is human being, and human beings = ἄνθρωπος - anthropos.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one human being sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all human beings, for all have sinned:

*

 

[Ingledsva]

What you wrote is not far from what mainstream "Christians" believe, but bears no resemblance to what the Bible really says, IMO. Just a few discrepancies, based upon what I believe the Bible really teaches:

• Jesus is not God. (John 17:3)
• God did not create a fiery hell to punish sinners. There is no such place. (Romans 6:23)
• Jesus was a perfect man, the equivalent of Adam before he sinned. (1 Corinthians 15:45)
• Most people, including those who died before Christ came, will be resurrected back to life on earth. (Acts 24:15)
• Gods motivation for providing the ransom for sins was love for mankind. (John 3:16)
• Without the ransom, we would have no hope. Because of what Christ did, we can live forever. (Revelation 21:3,4)

The problem with this is - that no torture-sacrifice is needed, - if YHVH is actually God.

This ancient idea of a human torture-sacrifice needed to cleanse the rest, - is horrendous, - and ridiculous.

And as many have pointed out, - it takes ownership off of the one whom actually commits sins/crimes.

*

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Christianity says it's impossible for a human to do this this because of sin nature. .
Jesus was born of Mary who is not regarded as being sin free, so it would follow that Jesus must have inherited sin nature same as a human.
Jesus is then said to have been resurrected showing his hands and side to the disciples. Is the sacrifice then conducive with the amount of pain and suffering endured? It can't be considered a true sacrificial death in light he was subsequently brought back in the same body.
How would that be addressed?

According to Scripture: God sent the pre-human heavenly Jesus to earth to be born of Mary.
Yes, Mary was imperfect, but Jesus being transferred from perfect heavenly life to Mary allowed Jesus to be born without human imperfection inherited from father Adam.
It was to doubting Thomas that Jesus used a marked materialized body to show Thomas he was resurrected.
The other materialized bodies that Jesus used post-resurrection did Not have the markings on his hands,etc. - Luke 24:13-43 ( Luke 24:31 )
Remember the first person to see the resurrected Jesus was a woman which he knew and she mistook the resurrected Jesus to be the caregiver/ gardener.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The problem with this is - that no torture-sacrifice is needed, - if YHVH is actually God.
This ancient idea of a human torture-sacrifice needed to cleanse the rest, - is horrendous, - and ridiculous.
And as many have pointed out, - it takes ownership off of the one whom actually commits sins/crimes.
*

Sinless Adam failed in what was least.
Satan challenges all of us. - Job 2:4-5 - touch our ' flesh ' ( Loose physical health ) and we would Not serve God under adverse conditions.
Both faithful Job and faithful Jesus proved Satan a liar and so can we.
Jesus succeeded in what was Most, so surely Adam could have chosen Not to break God's Law.
We pay for our sin/crimes by paying the price of sin/crimes which is: death - Romans 6:23 - No post-mortem penalty but death.
Except for those of Matthew 12:32; Hebrews 6:4-6 the words of Romans 6:7 apply.
The dead are freed or acquitted from sin/crime.
Not meaning now innocent but as a governor can pardon a person so the crime charges do Not stick, Jesus can pardon a person so the sin charges do Not stick.
Because we can Not resurrect oneself or another, we need someone who can resurrect us. Jesus can and will - Revelation 1:18
Satan did Not want Jesus to succeed, that is why Satan threw everything he could at Jesus to break Jesus' integrity and to keep us from having a resurrection.

 

[Ingledsva]

Sinless Adam failed in what was least.
Satan challenges all of us. - Job 2:4-5 - touch our ' flesh ' ( Loose physical health ) and we would Not serve God under adverse conditions.
Both faithful Job and faithful Jesus proved Satan a liar and so can we.
Jesus succeeded in what was Most, so surely Adam could have chosen Not to break God's Law.
We pay for our sin/crimes by paying the price of sin/crimes which is: death - Romans 6:23 - No post-mortem penalty but death.
Except for those of Matthew 12:32; Hebrews 6:4-6 the words of Romans 6:7 apply.
The dead are freed or acquitted from sin/crime.
Not meaning now innocent but as a governor can pardon a person so the crime charges do Not stick, Jesus can pardon a person so the sin charges do Not stick.
Because we can Not resurrect oneself or another, we need someone who can resurrect us. Jesus can and will - Revelation 1:18
Satan did Not want Jesus to succeed, that is why Satan threw everything he could at Jesus to break Jesus' integrity and to keep us from having a resurrection.

None of this has anything to do with a supposed "sacrifice."

If YHVH is actually God, - then a ridiculous human sacrifice of his supposed son/self, would not be needed to set people back on the right path. Just ZAPPP! It is done!

Sacrifice is a human rite to appease the "forces."

No sacrificial-death is needed for that "rising" of the dead. This is obvious from Tanakh, - which tells us ALL, - both good and bad, - go to Sheol - to await the Final Judgment of Messiah.

No Sacrifice of that Messiah is required.

There is no evil Satan in Tanakh, - that idea was made up by later Christians in contact with other religions. In Tanakh he is a servant of YHVH - that tests you, - and if found wanting, - stands beside you, - to accuse you.


Zec 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.

Psa 109:5 And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love.

Psa 109:6 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.

Psa 109:7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.


*

 

[Ingledsva]

According to Scripture: God sent the pre-human heavenly Jesus to earth to be born of Mary.
Yes, Mary was imperfect, but Jesus being transferred from perfect heavenly life to Mary allowed Jesus to be born without human imperfection inherited from father Adam.
It was to doubting Thomas that Jesus used a marked materialized body to show Thomas he was resurrected.
The other materialized bodies that Jesus used post-resurrection did Not have the markings on his hands,etc. - Luke 24:13-43 ( Luke 24:31 )
Remember the first person to see the resurrected Jesus was a woman which he knew and she mistook the resurrected Jesus to be the caregiver/ gardener.

There is NO "virgin" birth prophecy. They misread Isaiah - and thus gave Jesus a FALSE "virgin" birth story.

He claimed to be the awaited Messiah, who is born from the line of David, - not a virgin birth.

*

 

[InChrist]

Actually that is not man as in a male, - it is human being, and human beings = ἄνθρωπος - anthropos.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one human being sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all human beings, for all have sinned:

*

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 1 Cor. 15:22

 

[Skwim]

Actually that is not man as in a male, - it is human being, and human beings = ἄνθρωπος - anthropos.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one human being sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all human beings, for all have sinned:

*

According to Strong's, ἄνθρωπος - anthropos, is a masculine noun.


.

 

[Ingledsva]

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 1 Cor. 15:22

What is your point? It is a different text.

Anthropos is human being.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

According to Strong's, ἄνθρωπος - anthropos, is a masculine noun.

.

Yep, in patriarchy a group is often in the masculine. Like we say MANkind.

Aner is man-male.

They have turned different words into "man."

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1Co 15:21 For since by man (anthropos- a human being) came death, by man (anthropos- a human being) came also the resurrection of the dead.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1Co 15:23 But every man (hekastos - everyone) in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men (anthropos- human beings), but unto God: for no man (oudeis - not even one - nobody) understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.


*

 

[Christ's Prophet]

The following came to mind when I was reminded that Easter was approaching. It got me thinking. . . . .

If I remember correctly, Jesus was put on Earth to save sinners from Hell and insure they could go to heaven.

And, as I recall, Jesus was one of three consubstantial expressions (a term I took from the definition of the trinity) of god.

So, in fact, god put himself on Earth to save sinners from the Hell he had created for them, or at least permitted it to exist.

God therefore went about his work on earth in the guise of a human, and being omniscient knew what lay ahead---the impending betrayal, crucifixion, and resurrection from his human form.

Knowing how his earthly life was to play out, and purposely orchestrating the whole thing, insuring that he would be betrayed, arrested, crucified, etc. why do people find his "suffering" on the cross and his resurrection so admirable? I don't get it.

First of all, he created Hell (or if you prefer, exclusion from Heaven), but why? The only answer I've been able to come up with is that he wanted his creatures, us, to need him. Need him to get us out of the predicament he set up for us. However, he didn't need it for quite a few years, during which time he sent millions of people to his Hell. Then he comes along and offers a way out to some of his creatures, but only if they sing his praises for being a good guy who had himself killed.

In light of the foregoing, isn't Christianity simply an insurance policy that demands that one buy into the notion that the crucifixion and all was some kind of true sacrifice, when, in fact, it appears there was no actual sacrifice at all? It is all a ploy to get people to praise him, and those who don't can go to H - E - double hockey sticks.

If I've missed some critical aspect of the story please bring me up to speed.


.

Correction: - Jesus was not PUT on earth. He willingly came to save sinners, to tell people about the love of God so that they could, of their own free minds, make a decision for salvation or against salvation. Jesus Christ was the greatest Hell warning Prophet of all. Also God is God and not god (not a little god). God is the One who gives you your next heart beat and your next breath. Without Him, nothing would exist.

I wouldn’t pay too much attention to God being consubstantial, but rather that God is three persons in one, which is more important. God can exist in any form He wishes. It all starts with prayerfully reading God’s word and getting to know Him.

Hell is a place for those people who have rejected Jesus Christ as Saviour. They have made their decision on this earth. They have no excuse. The evidence of Christ’s creation is evident everywhere. Jesus Christ wants people in Heaven with Him, who want to be there.

Jesus Christ did not come in the guise of a human being. He was fully a human being and He never stopped being God. He told them who He was, and He performed many miracles to authenticate who He was, but still many people refused to believe in Him because their hearts were hardened. Believing in Jesus Christ should not be seen as an insurance policy. That attitude is very carnal and not Christian. God is love and we are to show that love which He first gives to us, and through us to others. When we love, we are not thinking about an insurance policy, to avoid Hell. As Jesus Christ said in John Chapter 3, we must be born again, that is to repent of your sins, and to allow the Spirit of Christ to come into your life and regenerate you unto eternal life.

I hope this helps. Christ prophet. Certainty for eternity.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Hell is a place for those people who have rejected Jesus Christ as Saviour. They have made their decision on this earth. They have no excuse. The evidence of Christ’s creation is evident everywhere. Jesus Christ wants people in Heaven with Him, who want to be there.
I hope this helps. Christ prophet. Certainty for eternity.

Can you name anyone righteous who went to hell ?______
Did Jesus reject himself, if not, then why did Jesus go to hell the day he died - Acts of the Apostles 2:27; Psalms 16:10
Jesus did Not believe in some ' religious-myth hell of burning forever', but believed in a biblical hell or grave for the sleeping dead.
That is why Jesus likened death to sleep at John 11:11-14 which is in harmony with the old Hebrew Scriptures which also teach sleep ( Not pain ) in death.
- References Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13; Ecclesiastes 9:5

Yes, Jesus wants people in heaven - Luke 22:28-30 - and they are the one who have a first or earlier resurrection - Revelation 20:6; Revelation 2:10; Revelation 5:9-10
However, all who died before Jesus' died - John 3:13 - were never offered heaven. Even King David did Not ascend to heaven - Acts of the Apostles 2:34
ALL the people Jesus resurrected he did Not resurrect to heaven, but resurrected them back to healthy physical life on earth.
Adam was never offered heaven, but offered ' everlasting life on earth ' as long as he did Not break God's Law.
None of the people of Hebrews chapter 11 went to heaven - Hebrews 11:13; Hebrews 11:39
God's promise to father Abraham is that ALL families and ALL nations of ' earth ' will be blessed - Genesis 12:3; Genesis 22:18
Blessed with the benefit of healing for earth's nations - Revelation 22:2

What did Jesus teach about earth ? __________ - Matthew 5:5. - Psalms 37:11; Psalms 37:29
Do the humble ' sheep'-like people at the soon coming ' time of separation ' on earth - Matthew 25:31-33,37 - go to heaven or remain on earth - Proverbs 2:21-22

During Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rulership over earth please notice what happens to temporary ' biblical hell ' at Revelation 20:13-14
After everyone in the Bible's hell is ' delivered up ' (KJV ) meaning resurrected out of hell, then emptied-out hell ( grave ) is cast into a symbolic ' second death' for vacated hell.
Enemy death will be No more on earth - 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8

We are given two (2) choices - 2 Peter 3:9 - to either repent or 'perish' ( be destroyed ). The wicked will be destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7 - Not burn forever.

 

[Ingledsva]

Correction: - Jesus was not PUT on earth. He willingly came to save sinners, to tell people about the love of God so that they could, of their own free minds, make a decision for salvation or against salvation. Jesus Christ was the greatest Hell warning Prophet of all. Also God is God and not god (not a little god). God is the One who gives you your next heart beat and your next breath. Without Him, nothing would exist.

I wouldn’t pay too much attention to God being consubstantial, but rather that God is three persons in one, which is more important. God can exist in any form He wishes. It all starts with prayerfully reading God’s word and getting to know Him.

Hell is a place for those people who have rejected Jesus Christ as Saviour. They have made their decision on this earth. They have no excuse. The evidence of Christ’s creation is evident everywhere. Jesus Christ wants people in Heaven with Him, who want to be there.

Jesus Christ did not come in the guise of a human being. He was fully a human being and He never stopped being God. He told them who He was, and He performed many miracles to authenticate who He was, but still many people refused to believe in Him because their hearts were hardened. Believing in Jesus Christ should not be seen as an insurance policy. That attitude is very carnal and not Christian. God is love and we are to show that love which He first gives to us, and through us to others. When we love, we are not thinking about an insurance policy, to avoid Hell. As Jesus Christ said in John Chapter 3, we must be born again, that is to repent of your sins, and to allow the Spirit of Christ to come into your life and regenerate you unto eternal life.

I hope this helps. Christ prophet. Certainty for eternity.

Jesus claimed to be the Hebrew Messiah - whom was to be a human born through the line of David.

There is actually no trinity in the Bible. Jesus never said he was part of any trinity.

You said -

Hell is a place for those people who have rejected Jesus Christ as Saviour. They have made their decision on this earth. They have no excuse. The evidence of Christ’s creation is evident everywhere. Jesus Christ wants people in Heaven with Him, who want to be there.

That is your opinion. There is no proof of Jesus doing anything magical, or being a god-man, etc.

*

 

[Neo Deist]

Jesus Christ wants people in Heaven with Him, who want to be there.

No one goes to heaven. Go read Revelation 21. Those that pass judgment will be sent to live in paradise on NEW EARTH. It helps to actually read the Bible and know what is in it.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

No one goes to heaven. Go read Revelation 21. Those that pass judgment will be sent to live in paradise on NEW EARTH. It helps to actually read the Bible and know what is in it.

If No one goes to heaven, then how do you account for those who have a first or earlier resurrection to heaven - Revelation 20:6 - who reign in heaven with Christ for a thousand years over earth ?

 

[Skwim]

Correction: - Jesus was not PUT on earth. He willingly came to save sinners, to tell people about the love of God so that they could, of their own free minds, make a decision for salvation or against salvation.

John 12:44
And Jesus cried out and said, "Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me.​

"Sent" or "put" in this context amounts to the same thing

I wouldn’t pay too much attention to God being consubstantial, but rather that God is three persons in one, which is more important.

Of course you wouldn't because it makes it a bit difficult to maintain the distinction between god the father and god the son.

God can exist in any form He wishes.

Which is why it's not illogical to say, "God therefore went about his work on earth in the guise of a human.",

Hell is a place for those people who have rejected Jesus Christ as Saviour. They have made their decision on this earth. They have no excuse.

Then a whole lot of hell-bound people would have been better off like those who never heard they needed to be saved and how this could be accomplished. Lucky are those sinners who never got the message.

The evidence of Christ’s creation is evident everywhere.

Presumptuous poppycock.

Jesus Christ did not come in the guise of a human being.

No, *sigh* God did.

He was fully a human being and He never stopped being God.

Then I assume you acknowledge that more likely than not he had nocturnal emissions. Because a lot of (most?) Christians wouldn't.


.

 

[Neo Deist]

If No one goes to heaven, then how do you account for those who have a first or earlier resurrection to heaven - Revelation 20:6 - who reign in heaven with Christ for a thousand years over earth ?

Rev 20:6 does not say where they will reign. That answer can be found in Rev 21. It helps to know what the Bible says instead of repeating what your preacher tells you. Your problem is that you assume too much, and take verses out of context and then bend them to what you want it to say.

 

[Thief]

The following came to mind when I was reminded that Easter was approaching. It got me thinking. . . . .

If I remember correctly, Jesus was put on Earth to save sinners from Hell and insure they could go to heaven.

And, as I recall, Jesus was one of three consubstantial expressions (a term I took from the definition of the trinity) of god.

So, in fact, god put himself on Earth to save sinners from the Hell he had created for them, or at least permitted it to exist.

God therefore went about his work on earth in the guise of a human, and being omniscient knew what lay ahead---the impending betrayal, crucifixion, and resurrection from his human form.

Knowing how his earthly life was to play out, and purposely orchestrating the whole thing, insuring that he would be betrayed, arrested, crucified, etc. why do people find his "suffering" on the cross and his resurrection so admirable? I don't get it.

First of all, he created Hell (or if you prefer, exclusion from Heaven), but why? The only answer I've been able to come up with is that he wanted his creatures, us, to need him. Need him to get us out of the predicament he set up for us. However, he didn't need it for quite a few years, during which time he sent millions of people to his Hell. Then he comes along and offers a way out to some of his creatures, but only if they sing his praises for being a good guy who had himself killed.

In light of the foregoing, isn't Christianity simply an insurance policy that demands that one buy into the notion that the crucifixion and all was some kind of true sacrifice, when, in fact, it appears there was no actual sacrifice at all? It is all a ploy to get people to praise him, and those who don't can go to H - E - double hockey sticks.

If I've missed some critical aspect of the story please bring me up to speed.


.

sorry to be so late....and did anyone else say so?.....
The Carpenter saved no one by His death.
that was just a pending consequence for His ministry.....He saw it coming.

He saved one and all by His parables.....His teachings.

Hold His Word to your mind and heart......all is well
hold not His Word and He will not know you.

He won't be able to see Himself in you