Jesus Dying for Our Sins

[Astravalon]

Did you ever watch the Passion? Mel Gibson aside, The way they depicted the Crucifiction was awful. I felt so sick and terrible after watching it (Which I imagine was the point) but that doesn't change the fact that Jesus probably went through worse. Even if you know something is coming, even if you know you'll survive it, does that make the pain you suffered hurt any less or mean any less? I don't think so.

I never had a desire to see that movie, and
never understood why anyone would. However, the
more emphasis one puts on all that Jesus supposedly
went through to pay for the sins "of the world", the
more it raises the question of why he would not get
all that he paid so dearly for. To go through all that and
only succeed in saving a fraction of all of humanity? To
fall short of his goal after all that suffering? Really?

And on top of that, it's apparently not what he went
through, but what the individual believes about what he
went through, that does the actual saving to begin
with. So why would God pick something so horrific for
mankind to believe in for their salvation when it's more
a matter of belief than it is the thing upon which the
belief is rooted that determines the individual's
salvation anyway?

It was suffering that we deserved, that God took upon Himself, not a random unrelated act, but punishment that would have been rightly doled out on us.

If the suffering he took upon himself is the same thing
as endless torment in hell, he would still be enduring
that to this day and beyond.



-

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Hell is a necessary result of God's nature being just, not something made for fun, and punishing those who are wicked.

So Jesus was wicked?

God had mercy on the wicked though, and planned that He would come to earth and take the punishment we deserved, bearing it on the cross.

So God is okay with injustice?

... or do you consider this arrangement just?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

The very first statement is wrong. Jesus did not save mankind from Hell so they could go to Heaven. The Bible says Heaven is where God lives. There is not one verse that says anyone has gone or will go to Heaven. Hell is the grave where everyone will go. There is nothing that can save anyone from the grave. Jesus came to give men a chance to gain eternal life as part of God's family and to reign in God's kingdom here on earth when Jesus returns to be its king.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

If the suffering he took upon himself is the same thing
as endless torment in hell, he would still be enduring
that to this day and beyond. -

Who but God could endure eternal suffering in a finite time, Jesus satisfied all of the wrath.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

So Jesus was wicked?


So God is okay with injustice?

... or do you consider this arrangement just?

It was an act of mercy on God's part, a voluntary substitute. The justice is that the price was still paid.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It was an act of mercy on God's part, a voluntary substitute. The justice is that the price was still paid.

Edit:
"We executed an innocent man."
"Maybe so, but the important thing is that someone got executed."

This makes no sense. That's not justice.

If we have two options:

A) The guilty go unpunished.
B) The guilty go unpunished AND the innocent are punished for crimes they didn't commit.

... the more just option is A.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Edit:
"We executed an innocent man."
"Maybe so, but the important thing is that someone got executed."

This makes no sense. That's not justice.

If we have two options:

A) The guilty go unpunished.
B) The guilty go unpunished AND the innocent are punished for crimes they didn't commit.

... the more just option is A.

Though in this case the innocent man is also the judge in charge of justice Himself, who is not picked randomly but voluntarily gave His life for others, He is the one who punishes the wicked, and instead gives His own life.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Though in this case the innocent man is also the judge in charge of justice Himself, who is not picked randomly but voluntarily gave His life for others, He is the one who punishes the wicked, and instead gives His own life.

Which still doesn't equate to justice.

You said it yourself in the first post I quoted: "punishing those who are wicked." Provided the punishment is fair and just, it's necessarily unjust for the guilty to go unpunished.

If you want to say that God's plan reflects that some other concern is more important than justice, go ahead, but atonement theology describes the denial of justice, not its fulfilment.

 

[arthra]

If I remember correctly, Jesus was put on Earth to save sinners from Hell and insure they could go to heaven.

And, as I recall, Jesus was one of three consubstantial expressions (a term I took from the definition of the trinity) of god.

So, in fact, god put himself on Earth to save sinners from the Hell he had created for them, or at least permitted it to exist.

The Baha'i view is somewhat different... God manifested Himself in Jesus (a Manifestation of God) to provide humanity with guidance, an opportunity to be near our Creator. Jesus had a material body and human soul and reflected the Light of God. God didn't create "hell" ... but man can choose not to accept Divine Guidance and be alienated from God which is a condition some call "hell".

 

[Skwim]

Jesus said Hell was created for Satan and the demons (Matt. 25:41). It wasn't for humans because God desires that everyone (2 Peter 3:9) spend eternity for that which we were created; an eternal relationship of love,joy, and oneness with Him. Those who don't want that eternal relationship with their Creator have no option but to be separated with Satan and the demons.

Okay, so hell was originally created for "the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41); however, god also uses hell as a place to send humans.

"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell."
(matthew 5:22)

"I'll show you the one you should be afraid of. Be afraid of the one who has the authority to throw you into hell after killing you. Yes, I tell you, be afraid of him!"
(Luke 12:5)

29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, 30 saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 Thus you witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. 33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?"
(Matthew 23:29-33)​

Nothing at all about "those who don't want that eternal relationship with their Creator."

The agonizing, depth of lonely separation which the Son experienced from His beloved eternal Father for the first time ever and the excruciating pain the Father experienced as He turned from His beloved Son ever while He bore the sins of the world was far more suffering than even the the physical suffering Jesus endured on the cross.

Chapter and verse please. Actually, for such a thing to occur god would have to be schizophrenic.

"I think it is an infinite sacrifice, a focal point of human history (History), available for the benefit of all people, and an eternal reality with eternal ramifications for each person.

What sacrifice? God abandoning the human form he took for an extremely brief period of time? It was all in the plan that god in the guise of a human would only last a few years and then return to its previous state. Where is the sacrifice in that?

My reasoning is that I trust in God as the ultimate and absolute source of moral truth and justice.

I know how many Christians look at all of of god's vile actions as justified because he knows best. It was for the good of someone or something that god had infants and nursing children killed.

(1 Samuel 15:3)
3 Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”

(Hosea 13:16)

16 The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword;
their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
their pregnant women ripped open.

​

But honestly, I don't buy it. In no way is this justice.

The question is why God would save any at all, everyone deserves Hell.

Then I find a better question to be: why did god create people to be so deserving of hell? He created the earth and everything and then decided to populate it with vile, depraved creatures who deserved to be punished for their character. It's like a kid purposely making a clay model of a horse so bad it deserves to be destroyed. Where's the sense? What's the point?

It was suffering that we deserved,

How nice of god to create everyone so appalling that we all deserve to suffer.

The Baha'i view is somewhat different... God manifested Himself in Jesus (a Manifestation of God) to provide humanity with guidance, an opportunity to be near our Creator.

And what of all the unfortunate souls who never had the opportunity to know of such guidance, or who were confronted by a messenger of "the Word" who was so inept that he failed to convince?

God didn't create "hell" ... but man can choose not to accept Divine Guidance and be alienated from God which is a condition some call "hell".

Hmm, InChrist, has pointed out that according to the book of Matthew god originally created hell for "the devil and his angels." (See first post above)

 

[Astravalon]

Who but God could endure eternal suffering in a finite time, Jesus satisfied all of the wrath.

Apparently not , if there's still wrath to come for those who don't believe.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Apparently not , if there's still wrath to come for those who don't believe.

Satisfied the wrath for the believers, for His people.

 

[Geoff-Allen]

For a different view on the question of Hell - try "Conversations with God".

It says God is not into punishment or anger or anything like that ...

Cheers

 

[Astravalon]

Satisfied the wrath for thebelievers, for His people.

Right, so he didn’t, as you originally stated, satisfy all of
the wrath.

And what about it being “while we were yet sinners” that
he died for mankind? Believers (the righteous) aren’t the
ones who would’ve needed the sacrifice, but those who
were unbelievers (the unrighteous). It’s the sick who
need the physician, not the healthy, etc. etc.

Again, he went through all that suffering, and yet only a
fraction will benefit from it. And he’s just going to settle
for less than what he paid so dearly for.

Not much by way of “good news” to be found there, imo.

For a different view on the question of Hell - try "Conversations with God".

It says God is not into punishment or anger or anything like that ...

Cheers

Awesome; thanks for the suggestion; I've put in a request
for it at my local library!


-

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Then I find a better question to be: why did god create people to be so deserving of hell? He created the earth and everything and then decided to populate it with vile, depraved creatures who deserved to be punished for their character. It's like a kid purposely making a clay model of a horse so bad it deserves to be destroyed. Where's the sense? What's the point?

It's almost a badge of honor to accomplish all the ways a Sim can die in the Sims games. If you don't value the lives you are destroying, it means nothing (to you, anyway). I have this one woman in my game who has unfortunately watched 3 or 4 people die (of old age) during her life so far. It's like she stays depressed all the time. I'm starting to feel sorry for her. She's been through a lot. Hell is only useful for the sadistic and lazy. If God has love and justice, then education (or re-education or whatever) is the way to go.

 

[arthra]

And what of all the unfortunate souls who never had the opportunity to know of such guidance, or who were confronted by a messenger of "the Word" who was so inept that he failed to convince?

Every country has had it's Messengers and Prophets and so God has allowed all of us to receive guidance from Him... The Messengers also are not "inept". So the opportunities are there for people to learn more about the guidance for humanity today.

The following might be of interest..

Interference with creed and faith in every country causes manifest detriment, while justice and equal dealing towards all peoples on the face of the earth are the means whereby progress is effected.

(Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveller's Narrative, p. 87)

if every clan, tribe, community, every nation, country, territory on earth should come together under the single-hued pavilion of the oneness of mankind, and by the dazzling rays of the Sun of Truth should proclaim the universality of man; if they should cause all nations and all creeds to open wide their arms to one another, establish a World Council, and proceed to bind the members of society one to another by strong mutual ties,

(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 279)

 

[Twilight Hue]

He did die as a human paying for the sins of humanity and He resurrected with the power of God offering new and eternal life.

Jesus' Death: Six Hours of Eternity on the Cross
http://www.ldolphin.org/sixhours.html

Christianity says it's impossible for a human to do this this because of sin nature. .

Jesus was born of Mary who is not regarded as being sin free, so it would follow that Jesus must have inherited sin nature same as a human.

Jesus is then said to have been resurrected showing his hands and side to the disciples. Is the sacrifice then conducive with the amount of pain and suffering endured? It can't be considered a true sacrificial death in light he was subsequently brought back in the same body.

How would that be addressed?

 

[Skwim]

NOTE, ALL MY REPLIES ARE IN REFERENCE TO CHRISTIANITY.

Every country has had it's Messengers and Prophets and so God has allowed all of us to receive guidance from Him...

Even ancient Zambia, Burma, Brunei, and the Sultanate of Malacca? I don't think so.

The Messengers also are not "inept".

If they fail to convince they may very well be. I've certainly seen inept preachers here in the USA. Goofball Christian preachers who've probably driven as many people away from Christianity as attracted them.

So the opportunities are there for people to learn more about the guidance for humanity today.

Think the opportunities are there in North Korea? They ain't. And how about all the bush natives who still cling to their "primitive" religions, bypassed by missionaries for one reason or another. Zippo opportunities. What's to happen to them? Even in the bowels of cities like Calcutta people today have no idea what Christianity is and don't care. Zippo opportunities.


.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Right, so he didn’t, as you originally stated, satisfy all of
the wrath.

And what about it being “while we were yet sinners” that
he died for mankind? Believers (the righteous) aren’t the
ones who would’ve needed the sacrifice, but those who
were unbelievers (the unrighteous). It’s the sick who
need the physician, not the healthy, etc. etc.

Again, he went through all that suffering, and yet only a
fraction will benefit from it. And he’s just going to settle
for less than what he paid so dearly for.

Not much by way of “good news” to be found there, imo.
-

What do you mean settle for less?

Yes Jesus died for the Church while they were still sinners, otherwise they would never have came to believe. He died for exactly whom He intended to die for, and all whom He died for have believed.

 

[Ingledsva]

Being a christian I hear so many things about myself that are just not true .
Jesus died on the cross because the people choose the other guy.

Now you're a Christian?

You told us those religions were not true, - in - There ain’t no Jesus here. # 216

It doesn't have to be true, - as we were discussing Satan as evil, in Hebrew, and later Christian mythology.

None of it true , I found God without books or should I say he found me .
It doesn't matter , it feels warm in his light no matter what you say.
God showed me the truth about all of it .

Hmmmm!


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