Good morning and thank you. To answer your questions.
I can assure you i have no 'tone'... im simply trying to understand how someone can claim the scriptures are not how we get to know Christ.
You can learn "about" Christ through the scriptures (the Bible). If you believe you cannot leave your home, for example, without having your Bible with you (as if it were Christ), that is where I have confusion as well.
Just as other people here, I see Christ as the Word (The Message of the gospels from His Father through His Son, Jesus Christ.) I understand what you're saying, how do you come to Christ without scriptures.
For me, it was God (the Father); I knew God before I came in contact with scriptures. I read about Christ, and I never believed Christ to be God rather He is God's representative--the Father in the flesh who share the same nature and are not each other. Reading the scripture taught me about Christ and how the Church teaches Him being God...I never personalized it until I went through the sacraments of the Church (I'll explain later).
Everyone is different, of course. The "scriptures" to you would be the Church to me. I learned about Christ through scriptures, I came to Christ through the sacraments of the Church. I felt that learning about Christ, I'd learn about His Father--with whom is whole message is about.
You said you learned about Christ from scriptures, yet you also say we dont need the scriptures to come to know him. Forgive me if i'm feeling a little confused.
I can see the confusion. The Church is based on scriptures. So, by technicality, I did come to Christ through the scriptures. I just did not read the "Bible" to come to Christ rather I went through the Church first.
(Scriptures-Christ--His Word [Message].
Bible/Gospels in particular--the words-- of His apostles' of their interactions with Christ.
but if it were not for the bible, you would not have come to know Christ... none of us would.
The difference is I believe in the Church. I believe that the Church follows scriptures and that without the Church I would not know scriptures in a personal way. So, you are right in a literal sense since the Church cannot be the Church without scriptures. We disagree because you know Christ through scriptures (the Bible? or His Word?) and I know Christ through the Church.
So the bible must hold some relevance for Christians.
No. We (the rest of the posters too) are just saying we do not need the Bible for Christ to come into a Christian's heart. One poster said that Christ sent the Holy Spirit into our hearts. If we do not have the Bible, are Christians denied having the Holy Spirit? Does their salvation depend on having a Bible or depend on Christ?
No, im not catholic which is why i asked what the sacraments are and how you know what they are. So what are they and where does the information about them come from?
Sacraments of the Catholic Church (I believe all Catholic Churches--Orthodox and Roman have the same--probably see them differently. This is the Roman view)
Catechism of the Catholic Church
1. Sacrament of Baptism:
Brief: Baptism is when a person is immersed in the Holy Spirit "and" in water so that they have the grace and blessings of Christ, washed of their mortal (like murder, rape) sins and temporal (like lying, petty stuff) sins.
VII. The Grace of Baptism
1262 The different effects of Baptism are signified by the perceptible elements of the sacramental rite. Immersion in water symbolizes not only death and purification, but also regeneration and renewal. Thus the two principal effects are purification from sins and new birth in the Holy Spirit.64
For the forgiveness of sins . . .
1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.65 In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam's sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.
1264 Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized, such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence, or metaphorically, "the tinder for sin" (fomes peccati); since concupiscence "is left for us to wrestle with, it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ."66 Indeed, "an athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules."67
"A new creature"
1265 Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte "a new creature," an adopted son of God, who has become a "partaker of the divine nature,"68 member of Christ and coheir with him,69 and a temple of the Holy Spirit.70
1266 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:
- enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;
- giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;
- allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.
Thus the whole organism of the Christian's supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.
Incorporated into the Church, the Body of Christ
1267 Baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ: "Therefore . . . we are members one of another."71 Baptism incorporates us into the Church. From the baptismal fonts is born the one People of God of the New Covenant, which transcends all the natural or human limits of nations, cultures, races, and sexes: "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body."72
1268 The baptized have become "living stones" to be "built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood."73 By Baptism they share in the priesthood of Christ, in his prophetic and royal mission. They are "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, that [they] may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called [them] out of darkness into his marvelous light."74 Baptism gives a share in the common priesthood of all believers.
1269 Having become a member of the Church, the person baptized belongs no longer to himself, but to him who died and rose for us.75 From now on, he is called to be subject to others, to serve them in the communion of the Church, and to "obey and submit" to the Church's leaders,76 holding them in respect and affection.77 Just as Baptism is the source of responsibilities and duties, the baptized person also enjoys rights within the Church: to receive the sacraments, to be nourished with the Word of God and to be sustained by the other spiritual helps of the Church.78
1270 "Reborn as sons of God, [the baptized] must profess before men the faith they have received from God through the Church" and participate in the apostolic and missionary activity of the People of God.79
The sacramental bond of the unity of Christians
1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."80 "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."81
An indelible spiritual mark . . .
1272 Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation.82 Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.
1273 Incorporated into the Church by Baptism, the faithful have received the sacramental character that consecrates them for Christian religious worship.83 The baptismal seal enables and commits Christians to serve God by a vital participation in the holy liturgy of the Church and to exercise their baptismal priesthood by the witness of holy lives and practical charity.84
1274 The Holy Spirit has marked us with the seal of the Lord ("Dominicus character") "for the day of redemption."85 "Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life."86 The faithful Christian who has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith,"87 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.
2. Sacrament of Confirmation
In general, it is going in front of the Church and saying "YES! I want Jesus Christ to be my Lord and Savior." It is confirming one's role in Christ and as His Body, part of the Church.
1285 Baptism, the Eucharist, and the sacrament of Confirmation together constitute the "sacraments of Christian initiation," whose unity must be safeguarded. It must be explained to the faithful that the reception of the sacrament of Confirmation is necessary for the completion of baptismal grace.
88 For "by the sacrament of Confirmation, [the baptized] are more perfectly bound to the Church and are enriched with a special strength of the Holy Spirit. Hence they are, as true witnesses of Christ, more strictly obliged to spread and defend the faith by word and deed."
89
3. The Sacrament of the Eucharist
In general, I see it as siting at the Lord's table and taking His Spirit within me. Since He rose to heaven both in spirit and in body, we say we take the blood/body of Christ not just spiritually, but literally (not his toes and fingers) too.
It is like the bread in the OT that came from the sky, the Mana that nourished physically and spiritually the Israelite--spiritually because it came from God; literally because it was food.
It was also explained to me like this: Okay, my other grandmother passed away in 96. Her favorite meal was cornbread. As a family, on thanksgiving, she never forgot to make the cornbread... as with many countries and even cultures in the state, food is very important to the family. It isn't just an object of nourishment. So, when she passed, I always remember her through the food we ate with her...hence "her spirit is in her food" in this example, the corn bread.
It is the same with Christ and the Eucharist. His Spirit is in the food--This is my blood and body. He isn't saying this is my head, toes, and fingers. Many Catholics may disagree with how I'm explaining it; so, everyone is different.
1322 The holy Eucharist completes Christian initiation. Those who have been raised to the dignity of the royal priesthood by Baptism and configured more deeply to Christ by Confirmation participate with the whole community in the Lord's own sacrifice by means of the Eucharist.
1323 "At the Last Supper, on the night he was betrayed, our Savior instituted the Eucharistic sacrifice of his Body and Blood. This he did in order to perpetuate the sacrifice of the cross throughout the ages until he should come again, and so to entrust to his beloved Spouse, the Church, a memorial of his death and resurrection: a sacrament of love, a sign of unity, a bond of charity, a Paschal banquet 'in which Christ is consumed, the mind is filled with grace, and a pledge of future glory is given to us.'"
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4. Sacrament of Confession
In general, this is where the member of the Church confesses His sins to God with the aid of the elder of the Church, the priest. What happens is I go into the confessional knowing I have sinned. I ask God "Forgive me Father, for I have sinned." The priest is the brother of Christ who like anyone else can hear confessions, so he asks "what do you have to confess?" so I confess my sins. Then he (by God not by himself) absolves me of my sins (ask God to forgive me of my sins) in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.
It's all about God; the priest acts as a brother to help members know they are receiving God's blessings and forgiveness with the aid (one-to-one contact) with the priest.
1422 "Those who approach the sacrament of Penance obtain pardon from God's mercy for the offense committed against him, and are, at the same time, reconciled with the Church which they have wounded by their sins and which by charity, by example, and by prayer labors for their conversion."
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There is also the sacrament of matrimony-marriage and the sacrament of healing--as in healing the sick.
