John 5:36-40 (Sola Scriptura)

[Unveiled Artist]

I am not going to pretend that I know much about sola scriptura. However, I heard a lot of arguments and read a lot from the search engine about it. So, instead of debate, can you explain the context of this verse from those who believe in scripture only as the bases of knowing Christ.

Jesus says "but I have testimony greater than John's. The works that my Father gave me to accomplish, these works that I perform testify on my behalf that the Father has sent me. Moreover, the Father who sent me has testified on my behalf. But you have never heard His voice nor seen His form and you do not have His word remaining in you,because you do not believe in the one whom he has sent." Which is Christ.

"You search the scriptures because you think you have eternal life through them; even they testify on my behalf. But you do not want to come to me to have life."

Now, I understood the scriptures Jesus' referred to is the Law in the Old Testament. Wouldn't that same reasoning apply to Christians today who are looking at the New Testament for salvation rather than setting the scripture aside and going to Christ directly--since He is The Word itself?

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[McBell]

Sola Scriptura is a man made doctrine.

No where does the scripture make any such claim.

 

[Pegg]

I am not going to pretend that I know much about sola scriptura. However, I heard a lot of arguments and read a lot from the search engine about it. So, instead of debate, can you explain the context of this verse from those who believe in scripture only as the bases of knowing Christ.

Jesus says "but I have testimony greater than John's. The works that my Father gave me to accomplish, these works that I perform testify on my behalf that the Father has sent me. Moreover, the Father who sent me has testified on my behalf. But you have never heard His voice nor seen His form and you do not have His word remaining in you,because you do not believe in the one whom he has sent." Which is Christ.

"You search the scriptures because you think you have eternal life through them; even they testify on my behalf. But you do not want to come to me to have life."

Now, I understood the scriptures Jesus' referred to is the Law in the Old Testament. Wouldn't that same reasoning apply to Christians today who are looking at the New Testament for salvation rather than setting the scripture aside and going to Christ directly--since He is The Word itself?

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How do people go directly to Christ without the scriptures?

 

[e.r.m.]

I am not going to pretend that I know much about sola scriptura. However, I heard a lot of arguments and read a lot from the search engine about it. So, instead of debate, can you explain the context of this verse from those who believe in scripture only as the bases of knowing Christ.

Jesus says "but I have testimony greater than John's. The works that my Father gave me to accomplish, these works that I perform testify on my behalf that the Father has sent me. Moreover, the Father who sent me has testified on my behalf. But you have never heard His voice nor seen His form and you do not have His word remaining in you,because you do not believe in the one whom he has sent." Which is Christ.

"You search the scriptures because you think you have eternal life through them; even they testify on my behalf. But you do not want to come to me to have life."

Now, I understood the scriptures Jesus' referred to is the Law in the Old Testament. Wouldn't that same reasoning apply to Christians today who are looking at the New Testament for salvation rather than setting the scripture aside and going to Christ directly--since He is The Word itself?

(I am not getting my alerts to my new threads. Please flag me by writing a line in my profile if you can, please)

It doesn't say the Christ should be gone to instead of the Scriptures, it said that the Scriptures point to Christ and that the Jews were not seeing it. Christ and the Scriptures are in harmony.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

How do people go directly to Christ without the scriptures?

I personally did through the sacraments of the Church. I didn't sit down and actually read scriptures in a spiritual light until after I was confirmed. I've talked with one lady in a chat room who said Jesus spoke to her in her heart and she didn't need the Bible for Christ to be there.

So, the Bible tells you about Christ; but I think Christ is saying that salvation is not in the words, in scripture, but in Him--the Word. So if you already know and receive Christ, why look for scripture rather than Him for salvation?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It doesn't say the Christ should be gone to instead of the Scriptures, it said that the Scriptures point to Christ and that the Jews were not seeing it. Christ and the Scriptures are in harmony.

That make more sense. I've heard people come to Christ without scriptures and I've been told by others that without scriptures they Christ isn't there.

 

[Pegg]

I personally did through the sacraments of the Church. I didn't sit down and actually read scriptures in a spiritual light until after I was confirmed. I've talked with one lady in a chat room who said Jesus spoke to her in her heart and she didn't need the Bible for Christ to be there.

So, the Bible tells you about Christ; but I think Christ is saying that salvation is not in the words, in scripture, but in Him--the Word. So if you already know and receive Christ, why look for scripture rather than Him for salvation?

what do you think the sacraments of the church are based upon?

 

[Windwalker]

How do people go directly to Christ without the scriptures?

If a child wishes to embrace you and know your love, do you hand him a book to read about you?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

what do you think the sacraments of the church are based upon?

Jesus Christ.

Why do you ask?

 

[Pegg]

Jesus Christ.

Why do you ask?

where does the church gets its information about those sacrements from ?

 

[Pegg]

If a child wishes to embrace you and know your love, do you hand him a book to read about you?

If you are a spirit, and not here in the flesh, yes.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

where does the church gets its information about those sacrements from ?

The answer to your question is Jesus Christ. Why do you ask?

 

[Windwalker]

If you are a spirit, and not here in the flesh, yes.

"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.... But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth"

So, Pegg, was he going to send the Bible? Is this what he meant?? Is it the Bible that guides you, and not the living Spirit within? And when he says, "I will never leave you", and "lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world," this means he will leave a book behind so you can read about him and come to know him without actually having any sort of real experience of Spirit? That, "You shall know the Truth, and the Truth shall set you free", is just a matter of believing correctly about stuff you have no direct experience with whatsoever and this freedom is just something on a ledger line in a book and not real in any lived reality in this life? How could it be otherwise if you have no direct experience of God?

I ask you, when Jesus says, "I will never leave you or forsake you", did he mean I will leave you with the Bible to get to know me through, and the world will have to wait until the 1900's when the Watchtower society translates it correctly? This all sounds very, very, very strange to me.

 

[Pegg]

The answer to your question is Jesus Christ. Why do you ask?

That all seems a bit airy fairy to be honest. How do we know anything at all about Jesus? Is it not because of what has been recorded about him in the scriptures?

May i ask you what the sacraments are?

 

[Pegg]

"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.... But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth"

So, Pegg, was he going to send the Bible? Is this what he meant?? Is it the Bible that guides you, and not the living Spirit within? And when he says, "I will never leave you", and "lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world," this means he will leave a book behind so you can read about him and come to know him without actually having any sort of real experience of Spirit? That, "You shall know the Truth, and the Truth shall set you free", is just a matter of believing correctly about stuff you have no direct experience with whatsoever and this freedom is just something on a ledger line in a book and not real in any lived reality in this life? How could it be otherwise if you have no direct experience of God?

I ask you, when Jesus says, "I will never leave you or forsake you", did he mean I will leave you with the Bible to get to know me through, and the world will have to wait until the 1900's when the Watchtower society translates it correctly? This all sounds very, very, very strange to me.

If the Apostles believed that no written record was required, they would not have made one.

However, they did make a written record and they even stated that everything that has been written is for our instruction that through these writings, we may have comfort and hope:

2 Timothy 3:14 You, however, continue in the things that you learned and were persuaded to believe,+ knowing from whom you learned them 15 and that from infancy+ you have known the holy writings,+ which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.+16 All Scripture is inspired of God+ and beneficial for teaching,+ for reproving, for setting things straight,* for disciplining in righteousness,+17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.


Romans 15:4
4 For all the things that were written beforehand were written for our instruction,+ so that through our endurance+ and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope.

To throw away the written word of God as though it is unnecessary is the work of Satan trying to, as he usually does, convince people they dont need Gods Word in their life.

Good luck without it!

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Please bring down your tone.

I studied scriptures and so on and so forth. Jesus Christ being airy? Who do you think the scriptures are based on?

I learned about Him in scriptures. I had a relationship with Him through the sacraments of the Church. He is not the scriptures (hence the verses I posted in my OP).. I was wondering if those verses apply to people today too. Since then, as with today, people were looking at the scriptures (the Old Testament/Law then, NT now) to find Christ when He said why are you looking at the scriptures, even they testify to my behalf.

That does not mean you forget the scriptures and throw them under the bed. I talked with one lady who said she had no Christian affiliation at home and in her community. Her only "church" was online. The Bible was her life because that is the only way she knew Christ. (This is a very different context) than looking to the scriptures (not Word) as if it is Christ.

If you believe you cannot be with Christ without having a Bible, I don't know what to say. That is not my experience. We share different views.

That all seems a bit airy fairy to be honest. How do we know anything at all about Jesus? Is it not because of what has been recorded about him in the scriptures?

May i ask you what the sacraments are?

Are you Catholic? If so, please don't ask me questions like this in this tone; its an insult. If you honestly do not know what the sacraments of the Church are, let me know, and I can share them with you.

--
From your other post:

To throw away the written word of God as though it is unnecessary is the work of Satan trying to, as he usually does, convince people they don't need Gods Word in their life.

Jesus is not saying we do not need scriptures. He is saying that people are looking to the scriptures as if THEY gave eternal life. The scriptures testify on His behalf. Therefore (as another poster said) they are in harmony with Christ words. He doesn't want us to make an idol of the scriptures thinking they have eternal life. Christ gave Christians option for eternal life. That is repeatedly said in the scriptures it is all about Christ and Christ says its all about His Father.

My OP was not belittling scripture...it is asking does the verses I posted apply to people today who, some, are looking at scripture as if it IS Christ rather than His Word.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You make a very good point. I understand that a Christian reads scripture to learn about Christ. However, the scriptures do not replace Him--as a spirit--going into that person's heart and giving him/her eternal life through Christ not through scripture.

I ask you, when Jesus says, "I will never leave you or forsake you", did he mean I will leave you with the Bible to get to know me through, and the world will have to wait until the 1900's when the Watchtower society translates it correctly? This all sounds very, very, very strange to me.

 

[Unification]

I am not going to pretend that I know much about sola scriptura. However, I heard a lot of arguments and read a lot from the search engine about it. So, instead of debate, can you explain the context of this verse from those who believe in scripture only as the bases of knowing Christ.

Jesus says "but I have testimony greater than John's. The works that my Father gave me to accomplish, these works that I perform testify on my behalf that the Father has sent me. Moreover, the Father who sent me has testified on my behalf. But you have never heard His voice nor seen His form and you do not have His word remaining in you,because you do not believe in the one whom he has sent." Which is Christ.

"You search the scriptures because you think you have eternal life through them; even they testify on my behalf. But you do not want to come to me to have life."

Now, I understood the scriptures Jesus' referred to is the Law in the Old Testament. Wouldn't that same reasoning apply to Christians today who are looking at the New Testament for salvation rather than setting the scripture aside and going to Christ directly--since He is The Word itself?

(I am not getting my alerts to my new threads. Please flag me by writing a line in my profile if you can, please)

It's the most beautiful thing hearing the voice of the Lord within. Meditation. Genuine seeking, closest when our conditioned minds are still and we forget everything that we think that we know because chances are that's wrong. A testimony of mine was that I kept ignoring the voice within, wrestling with myself and not ready to give up what I thought I knew, which essentially was what I've been taught always, and religious tradition in which I've grown up and certain doctrines. It's now one of the most evil lies to me, that scripture and the bible are the Word of God. Scripture is beautiful and testifies of Him, but it's pointless if I or anyone create our own ideas and inventions and imaginations as to what they mean. Always run into the same circle, confused, divide, conceit, and then arguing with others, twisting scripture to make it believe what we want it to, even if there are contradictions and divide in other scriptures in which we just twist around more to make our beliefs valid. There truly is the Word of God and He comes speaking to an individual, and it's the most beautiful, peaceful, and loving voice... And truth. I wish that we all can hear the living voice within or at least genuinely seek it, I was corrected on my own lies which I thought was true and all of the others by mankind. The scripture was written by the Spirit of God, how silly of me and others to take that lightly and carnally. All the man doctrines I once preached unto others, are complete silliness now. It still kind of sickens me all the junk I once believed and taught and seeing that everywhere and the basis of a foundation of faith to the vast majority. Very thankful that I was corrected and growing truthfully in the Lord, and molded how He wants me to be, not how I wanted to be and the world, even if it I vs the world. It's all oppressing to people. There is a living voice of the Lord within. The true Word of God. Peace to all, and many blessings.

 

[Windwalker]

You make a very good point. I understand that a Christian reads scripture to learn about Christ. However, the scriptures do not replace Him--as a spirit--going into that person's heart and giving him/her eternal life through Christ not through scripture.

I will say this, as someone reads any scriptures, it evokes a response from within on a deeper level, that transcends the literalness of the words to what it inspires within. It's not the Bible that is "the Truth", but what is evoked that is. That can, and will be understood in many ways, but the Heart of it resonates with others in that very Spirit of Truth, as it were.

 

[Pegg]

Please bring down your tone.

I studied scriptures and so on and so forth. Jesus Christ being airy? Who do you think the scriptures are based on?

I learned about Him in scriptures. I had a relationship with Him through the sacraments of the Church. He is not the scriptures (hence the verses I posted in my OP).

I can assure you i have no 'tone'... im simply trying to understand how someone can claim the scriptures are not how we get to know Christ.

You said you learned about Christ from scriptures, yet you also say we dont need the scriptures to come to know him.

Forgive me if i'm feeling a little confused.

If you believe you cannot be with Christ without having a Bible, I don't know what to say. That is not my experience. We share different views.

but if it were not for the bible, you would not have come to know Christ... none of us would.

So the bible must hold some relevance for Christians.

Are you Catholic? If so, please don't ask me questions like this in this tone; its an insult. If you honestly do not know what the sacraments of the Church are, let me know, and I can share them with you.

no, im not catholic which is why i asked what the sacraments are and how you know what they are. So what are they and where does the information about them come from?