firedragon
Veteran Member
Hi firedragon,
I've had this same conversation (perhaps even earlier on this thread)! I'll restate some background:
I spent many weeks reading the entire Quran (okay an English translation). I took many notes as I read. I do not claim to be any sort of Islamic scholar, I read the book as I would read any book, taking the words at face value.
I have had many experiences (on this website), of citing specific verses of the Quran, only to be told that I'm reading the verses wrong. Typically the reasons boil down to some combination of:
1 - I don't have the correct historic context
2 - I didn't properly group together the correct verses to get the true meaning
3 - I need to look at some other verses in some other part of the book
The bottom line is that we can argue endlessly over specific verses. Now I'm a peaceful person. I have no interest in violence towards anyone. With that said, it seems to me that groups like Al Quaeda, and ISIS, and the Taliban, and Boko Haram are making perfectly reasonable interpretations of the Quran. They can find support for being misogynistic, and they are misogynistic. They can find support for being anti-semetic and they are anti-semetic. And on and on. They can find support for wanting to spread Sharia through violence, and they are doing so.
So honestly, i don't care too much about how you find the book to be peaceful. I'm happy for you of course, but it seems clear that in the world many people find the book's messages to be anything but peaceful.
So back to this thread... In my reading of the Quran, I did find a few positive messages. But, the peaceful messages were few and far between, and mostly the messages I read were not peaceful or tolerant. So there is no need for you to point me to the verse that reads "there is no compunction in religion" - I agree, it says that.
But no one has answered how I'm supposed to ignore the 500+ times that the Quran tells Muslims to mistrust and despise non-believers. Somehow each of those 500 times has some "context". I call "nonsense" on that response. Really? Non-believers are criticized over 500 times and I'm not supposed to see that as a theme of the book?
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defend net neutrality - "without love in the game, insanity's king"
Critisising nonbelievers over 500 times. Thats about 8% of the Quran. Are you serious? Maybe it will help if you give me the verses, or at least some of the baddest one's.
Alright, Im gonna take this. Fistly, let me tell you again that Muslims consider non believers to be others, I mean those who dont call themselves Muslims. Christians also do the same.
This is a cut and paste from another thread.
Brother, you may not get the answer that you expect.
Do you know how Christianity was born? Christians never called themselves Christians. It was others who called them Christians.
Then Barnabas went to Tarsus to look for Saul, and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch. Acts 11:25-26
The word Christian repeats in Acts 26:28 and 1 Peter 4:16. As you can see clearly, the word Christian is used by a third party to refer to followers of Christ. The more appropriate and original word is Nazarene derived from the city Nazareth. Jesus is called the Nazarene in the bible as follows.
The even more appropriate name would be Muslim.
Nasara in Hebrew means "One who remains". One who stays or has submitted. Do you understand brother. נשארה Nasara. This is the Arabic word as well that refers to Christians in the Quran. Nasara in Arabic also is currently believed to mean Christian but how about the original meaning. It means one who follows, which is also akin to one who has submitted. Do you see? You have to have submitted yourself to follow someone or to remain with someone. Its the same as Islam or Muslim. The greek word for remain is emeinen and in various ways Jesus calls his disciples and followers those who remained. One word for this is Muslim. It is unfortunate that the NT has been written or converted into Greek though Jesus spoke Aramaic. If it stayed in the original text the word Nasara, Mushlam etc will be used heavily rather than a Greek using the word Nasara as if it is a proper name. Do you understand what I am saying.
Another. This is directly to a Muslim but you can take what you may.
The belief that Islam, Christianity and Judaism etc are different religions etc is a questionable theology. It is cited that Abraham called people Muslims.
And strive in the cause of God its truly deserved striving. He is the One who has chosen you, and He has made no hardship for you in the system, the creed of your father Abraham; He is the One who named you those who have submitted (Muslimeen) from before and in this. So let the messenger be witness over you and you be witness over the people. So hold the contact prayer and contribute towards purification and hold tight to God, He is your patron. What an excellent Patron, and what an excellent Supporter. - Quran
22:78
See the following verses.
2:111 And they said: None shall enter the Paradise except those who are Jewish or "Nasara"; this is what they wish! Say: Bring forth your proof if you are truthful.
2:112 No; whoever submits (Aslamu) himself to God, while doing good, he will have his recompense with his Lord. There will be no fear over them, nor will they grieve. (One who Aslamu is a Muslim. It does not mean Muslim that you think it is brother. It is very General)
2:113 And the Jews say: The "Nasara" have no basis, and the "Nasara" say: The Jews have no basis, while they are both reciting the Book! Similarly, those who do not know have said the same thing. God will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection in what they dispute.
Thus it is evident that Christians (Nasara) and Jews also can submit (One who submits is a Muslim) to God will be saved and God will judge between them. It is not for us to judge. Which indicates that one who submits or Aslamu is a Muslim and even one who calls himself Nasara also can be a Muslim.
2:135 And they said: Be Jewish or Nasara so that you may be guided! Say: No, rather the creed of Abraham, monotheism; for he was not of the polytheists.
2:136 Say: We believe in God and in what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the Patriarchs, and what was given to Moses and Jesus, and what was given to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make a distinction between any of them and to Him we submit.
We are required to tell those call themselves Jewish or Nazarenes that Millat Ibrahim or the creed or religion of Abraham will save us all. See, there was only one prophet called Muhammed born in Arabia but Muslims are divided into various sects. Shia, Sunni, Wahabbi etc. But what ever the division you call yourselves of, you are a segment of Islam. Same way if we believe that Islam or submission was the only system authorised by God, whatever name we call ourselves is just a concocted name, the origin is Islam. Thus, Christianity is a segment of Islam.
But Christians and Jews etc are clearly differentiated from the Mumeens.
3:67 Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Nasara, but he was a monotheist
who submitted; he was not of the polytheists.
3:68 The most legitimate people to Abraham are those who followed him; and this prophet, and those who believed (Amanu); and God is the supporter of the believers.
As you can see, if Abraham himself was a Muslim and he called his followers Muslim as said in the Quran, Amanu or believers are differentiated from them and called one of the legitimate people. There is a clear difference between a Muslim and an Amanu or one who has submitted and a believer. This is where the real difference between Christian, Jews and Mumeens is. Muslim is more generic.
Thus, when the Quran says that Islam is the only religion or system, you actually dont have to be one who in current context calls himself a Muslim.
3:85 And whoever follows other than submission (Islam) as a system, it will not be accepted from him, and in the Hereafter he is of the losers.
See if Ahlil Kithab are clearly a different entity from Muslims, how can they be told that it will not be accepted from him while in so many other places the Quran says that people of the book can attain salvation.
So in the current world people do misunderstand misquote the Quran.