Are Christians actually worshiping the Father of Jesus?

[loverOfTruth]

Yep, they don't seem to understand that Jesus was Jewish, and there would have been only ONE God for him. He would not have called himself God, or a trinity, etc.

The later writers of the gospels were writing from a more foreign perspective, and trying to get the concepts across.

If you talked to a Jewish follower you would probably get that the "logos" is Divine Law, that brought everything into being.

And that is what it says -

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by it; and without it was not any thing made that was made.

Modern Bibles put "Him" instead of "it." Older Bibles like the Bishops and Geneva (from the fifteen hundreds,) use "IT."

It says ALL come into being from "IT." - and ALL are not God. It says John came first, - and John isn't God, - and it isn't saying Jesus is either.

It is actually saying all have a Divine spark because they are a creation of Divine Law/God.


As I've said before, people need to look at the Greek.



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Good points.

 

[mystic64]

I wasn't quoting the Qur'an as 'evidence'. Of course, if you don't believe in the Qur'an, it is no evidence for you. I was just showing you what the Qur'an talks about the relevant subjects of Jesus(pbuh), Mary(pbuh) and the Word as FYI. Especially because what you were quoting from the Bible regarding that was not even from Jesus's (pbuh) companions' statement let alone from Jesus(pbuh) himself. Basically, I was just pointing out how the Qur'an sets the story straight without adding the complexity of Trinity and hence without departing from Monotheism.

Peace.

Ingledsva, Lover has gone off the reservation . Any suggestions?

 

[mystic64]

I wasn't quoting the Qur'an as 'evidence'. Of course, if you don't believe in the Qur'an, it is no evidence for you. I was just showing you what the Qur'an talks about the relevant subjects of Jesus(pbuh), Mary(pbuh) and the Word as FYI. Especially because what you were quoting from the Bible regarding that was not even from Jesus's (pbuh) companions' statement let alone from Jesus(pbuh) himself. Basically, I was just pointing out how the Qur'an sets the story straight without adding the complexity of Trinity and hence without departing from Monotheism.

Peace.

Lover of Truth Muslims are not worshipping the Father of Jesus either.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Lover of Truth Muslims are not worshipping the Father of Jesus either.

We(Muslims) are worshiping the Father(as in God, not literal) of Jesus(pbuh) ... and sorry to burst your bubble ;-) but we even believe that Jesus(pbuh) is coming back to establish Justice on earth and that even as a Muslim.

 

[Ingledsva]

Ingledsva, Lover has gone off the reservation . Any suggestions?

Need to be more specific?



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[Mr. Sock-puppet]

Sure. let's discuss. Jesus(pbuh) was created and needed a woman's womb to come into existence, so he was not God.

I think your on to something sonny boy. In Revelations 14:3-4,not only does it tell you whos going to heaven, it specifically shows not just God's (Jealous) disdain for vagina, but all of the heavens (God angels and subsidiaries).

And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps. And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth. These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.…

The use of crtical thinking skills. If Jealous has that much disdain of vagina that the only people he will allow to heaven are celibate men, do you really think he would allow his son and/ or himself to be surrounded (touching it) by it via vaginal birth?

:no:

 

[sojourner]

After a lifetime of reading the Protestant Christian version of the Bible it has come to my mind that the Father that Lord Jesus was talking about is not the same God that most Christians are worshiping. Most Christians are worshiping the God of the Old Testament and not the Father of Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus said that He came to replace the Old Law and that the new commandments were to love the Father and one's neighbor. He also said that the only sin that can not be forgiven is the sin against the Holy Spirit. Lord Jesus also claimed that His Father was a loving entity. The God of the Old Testament is not a loving and forgiving entity and seems to be pretty fussy about things.

Christians for the most part seem to be worshiping the God of the Old Testament and not the Father of Jesus. On one hand the Christian God is a loving entity because Lord Jesus said so and on the other hand He is a monster that does not fit the discription that Lord Jesus gave of His Father. Either the old God changed because of Lord Jesus or the Father of Jesus is not the same God as the old God. Either way most of Christianity seems to have gone back to the old God and away from the Father of Lord Jesus.

?

Jesus said that he came to fulfill the Law. Jesus summed up that Law by saying "Love the LORD your God..."

Ask a Jew. They'll be happy to tell you about the loving God of the Hebrew texts. In the creation myth, God shared power with humanity in love. That love carries through the subsequent myths, prophecies, narratives and poetry.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

After a lifetime of reading the Protestant Christian version of the Bible it has come to my mind that the Father that Lord Jesus was talking about is not the same God that most Christians are worshiping. Most Christians are worshiping the God of the Old Testament and not the Father of Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus said that He came to replace the Old Law and that the new commandments were to love the Father and one's neighbor. He also said that the only sin that can not be forgiven is the sin against the Holy Spirit. Lord Jesus also claimed that His Father was a loving entity. The God of the Old Testament is not a loving and forgiving entity and seems to be pretty fussy about things.

Christians for the most part seem to be worshiping the God of the Old Testament and not the Father of Jesus. On one hand the Christian God is a loving entity because Lord Jesus said so and on the other hand He is a monster that does not fit the discription that Lord Jesus gave of His Father. Either the old God changed because of Lord Jesus or the Father of Jesus is not the same God as the old God. Either way most of Christianity seems to have gone back to the old God and away from the Father of Lord Jesus.

?

God manifests Himself according to the exigencies of the Age. While the essence of God is unknowable and unchangeable, His revelation comes in the measure of the capacity of the people living in a given Age, and the Social Laws are changed to suit the needs.....Therefore, while it is certainly true that God through revelation of Moses manifested Himself differently than when He manifested Himself through Jesus, yet this is related to the nature of revelations of God which is progressive.

 

[Nakosis]

God manifests Himself according to the exigencies of the Age. While the essence of God is unknowable and unchangeable, His revelation comes in the measure of the capacity of the people living in a given Age, and the Social Laws are changed to suit the needs.....Therefore, while it is certainly true that God through revelation of Moses manifested Himself differently than when He manifested Himself through Jesus, yet this is related to the nature of revelations of God which is progressive.

So the key element is man. We see God as we are capable of seeing God. Our thinking, our spiritual understanding evolves so does our ability to commune with God.

Older beliefs had more primitive thinking with regard to God so that is how they related to God and relayed their understanding. I really don't think God has changed any or even changed his message any. It's us who have changed.

 

[mystic64]

Jesus said that he came to fulfill the Law. Jesus summed up that Law by saying "Love the LORD your God..."

Ask a Jew. They'll be happy to tell you about the loving God of the Hebrew texts. In the creation myth, God shared power with humanity in love. That love carries through the subsequent myths, prophecies, narratives and poetry.

Hi Sojourner and welcome to this topic. What you have posted is absolutely true . And love with faith and forgiveness works every single time. Basically I was talking about the "letter of the law" approach to God. The Pharisees and scribes are the old testament example of that. Christianty as a religion basically comes in two forms, the "love and forgiveness" form and the "letter of the law" form. My theses is that those who follow the "letter of the law" form are not worshipping the Father of Jesus. And I must admit that I have learned a few things from the responces posted in this topic since the OP was first posted . So my approach to the OP is a bit different than it was originally. The new approach basically goes, "Jesus created new wine in a new wineskin when He fulfulled the Law and the Old Law and the old approach to God is the old wine and old wineskin. And Christians that put the new wine (the Father of Jesus' teachings) in the old wineskin (the Old Law) are going to be in for disappointment as well as leading others away from the Father of Jesus' teachings and Jesus' teachings."

Sojourner, you and I are sort of on the same page because I suspect that the flack that you encounter with your message comes from the "letter of the law" type Christian. Which of course you and I both forgive because our Lord and Savior suggested that we do that.

 

[mystic64]

God manifests Himself according to the exigencies of the Age. While the essence of God is unknowable and unchangeable, His revelation comes in the measure of the capacity of the people living in a given Age, and the Social Laws are changed to suit the needs.....Therefore, while it is certainly true that God through revelation of Moses manifested Himself differently than when He manifested Himself through Jesus, yet this is related to the nature of revelations of God which is progressive.

I disagree . The salvation of Jesus is eturnal and can not be replaced by anyother. And sir , you are jacking this topic.

 

[mystic64]

Need to be more specific?



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Ing, I know that I need to be but I don't think that I can swing it. Lover of truth is too wiggly . argg.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So the key element is man. We see God as we are capable of seeing God. Our thinking, our spiritual understanding evolves so does our ability to commune with God.

Older beliefs had more primitive thinking with regard to God so that is how they related to God and relayed their understanding. I really don't think God has changed any or even changed his message any. It's us who have changed.

Well, just as an example, the Law of divorce is differently revealed in Hebrew Scriptures than the Christians bible, and Jesus explicitly confirmed that Moses had said differently that what He was saying.

 

[mystic64]

We(Muslims) are worshiping the Father(as in God, not literal) of Jesus(pbuh) ... and sorry to burst your bubble ;-) but we even believe that Jesus(pbuh) is coming back to establish Justice on earth and that even as a Muslim.

Sir, not literal is my point "bubble buster" . Islam does not believe or teach that Lord Jesus (prophet Jesus) is literally the Son of God (Allah). Christianity does teach that Lord Jesus is literally the Son of God (Jehovah). "Are Christians actually worshiping the Father of Jesus?", is the title of this topic sir. Your point Lover of Truth is that they are not worshiping the Father of Jesus because Allah, may His name be praised, is not literally the Father of Prophet Jesus.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I disagree . The salvation of Jesus is eturnal and can not be replaced by anyother. And sir , you are jacking this topic.

I don't know how salvation of Jesus is eternal has to do with the OP, and how did you conclude that return of Christ is not related to the concept of progressive revelation. Jesus alluded to this, by saying "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear it now", meaning that in future Ages, when mankind developed higher capacity and can bear to accept more, God will teach them more. That is the reason as it is recorded in Gospel of John, Jesus said "I have been speaking in figurative language, and not plainly, but next time I come, I shall speak plainly". All of these are related to your questions in OP, which the concept of progressive revelation explains it, and No Sir, do not worry, your dear thread is not jacked.

 

[mystic64]

So the key element is man. We see God as we are capable of seeing God. Our thinking, our spiritual understanding evolves so does our ability to commune with God.

Older beliefs had more primitive thinking with regard to God so that is how they related to God and relayed their understanding. I really don't think God has changed any or even changed his message any. It's us who have changed.

I do not think that He or His message has changed either. And I think that you are right, it is Mankind that changes. There is a "profoundly power force" out there that one can personally interact with with consistant positive results. Historically speaking those the have successfully interacted with this "profoundly power force" with consistant positive results maintain that "love" (or at least humility) is the key.

 

[mystic64]

I don't know how salvation of Jesus is eternal has to do with the OP, and how did you conclude that return of Christ is not related to the concept of progressive revelation. Jesus alluded to this, by saying "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear it now", meaning that in future Ages, when mankind developed higher capacity and can bear to accept more, God will teach them more. That is the reason as it is recorded in Gospel of John, Jesus said "I have been speaking in figurative language, and not plainly, but next time I come, I shall speak plainly". All of these are related to your questions in OP, which the concept of progressive revelation explains it, and No Sir, do not worry, your dear thread is not jacked.

back at you. On the surface what you are saying is valid. It is what is going on under the surface that I disagree with . The Baha'i faith teaches that their Prophet replaces both the Prophet Jesus and the Prophet Muhammad because God has changed His message to fit the times which requires a new prophet to fit the times. "Are Christians actually worshiping the Father of Jesus?" is the title of this topic and generally speaking what is under discussion. And because you are going attempt to promote the Baha'i Faith there is no way that you are not going to take things off topic. And that is called "jacking a topic". Which is ok because I do not really care , I am just letting you know, because I am going to use you to create activity no matter where the direction the conversation goes.

 

[Nakosis]

Well, just as an example, the Law of divorce is differently revealed in Hebrew Scriptures than the Christians bible, and Jesus explicitly confirmed that Moses had said differently that what He was saying.

Moses permitted it as a civil law for the tribes. Don't know why there'd be a need to think this was dictated by God.

There is a lot in the Bible, not all prophecy. The Christians turned the Bible into God's Word. So now somehow everything in it has to have been said according to God's will?

 

[loverOfTruth]

Sir, not literal is my point "bubble buster" . Islam does not believe or teach that Lord Jesus (prophet Jesus) is literally the Son of God (Allah). Christianity does teach that Lord Jesus is literally the Son of God (Jehovah). "Are Christians actually worshiping the Father of Jesus?", is the title of this topic sir. Your point Lover of Truth is that they are not worshiping the Father of Jesus because Allah, may His name be praised, is not literally the Father of Prophet Jesus.

Christians may claim that God(the Father) is the literal Father of Jesus(pbuh). However, Jesus(pbuh) never claimed that, as there are other example of people being called Son of God in the Bible. So my point is Muslims are worshiping the Father(God) of Jesus(pbuh) since Jesus(pbuh) never meant it as a literal Father either.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

back at you. On the surface what you are saying is valid. It is what is going on under the surface that I disagree with . The Baha'i faith teaches that their Prophet replaces both the Prophet Jesus and the Prophet Muhammad because God has changed His message to fit the times which requires a new prophet to fit the times. "Are Christians actually worshiping the Father of Jesus?" is the title of this topic and generally speaking what is under discussion. And because you are going attempt to promote the Baha'i Faith there is no way that you are not going to take things off topic. And that is called "jacking a topic". Which is ok because I do not really care , I am just letting you know, because I am going to use you to create activity no matter where the direction the conversation goes.

This is your judgement that I am planning to speak about Baha'i Faith....But though your question is if Christians worship the Old Testament or New Testament's God, a Christian assuredly would tell you, both revelations are from the same God. Then you are saying, if they are the same, then how come the God in OT sounds so different than the God that Jesus described who is more loving. Then in this point, the concept of progressive revelation comes in to the discussion. We don't really need to get in to Baha'i Faith here. Just from the verses in OT and NT we can see, God has revealed Himself according to the requirements and capacity of people, and since people at the time of Moses were a different people than people at the time Jesus, therefore God spoke to them differently, in another words, God manifested Himself differently in two different Ages.