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What do you do with magick?

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I got to wondering about something: those of you who use magick, what do you do with it? What ends do you use it to acheive?

Is the effect of magick equivalent to "the power of prayer" in other religions? Is it different somehow? Does magick have real, measurable, physical effects?

Short version: what is magick, anyhow? :D
 

Adramelek

Setian
Premium Member
I got to wondering about something: those of you who use magick, what do you do with it? What ends do you use it to acheive?

Is the effect of magick equivalent to "the power of prayer" in other religions? Is it different somehow? Does magick have real, measurable, physical effects?

Short version: what is magick, anyhow? :D

To me Magic/Magick is the Art of altering or disrupting the equilibrium of the subjective universe in order to produce a proportionate change in the equilibrium of the objective universe in accordance with the desire and will of the Magician.

Magic is the willful act of creative/destructive change or alteration both within ourselves and in the world around us. The "power of prayer" is magic for when you pray to whatever god(s) or goddess(es) you are sending forth into the universe your desire and will for change within your self, within others, in your life, the life of others, or change in the world. All Magic originates within the mind and is usually invoked out of need or self-expressive manifestation.

The difference between the magician and the rest of humanities use of magic is that the magician uses it consciously and deliberatly utilizing multiple techniques, and the magician understands the mechanics of how and why magic works. Which primarily has to do with psychic energy and will-power.

I use magic to evolve my self, to enhance my life and the lives of my friends and loved ones, and to curse my enemies, for knowledge and understanding, for creative self-expression, to bring forth willed change in the world around me. For instance, as a musician, when I compose a piece of music I am bringing forth into being within the universe a new creation spawned from my own mind. That is an act of magic, an act of creation and change within the objective universe. Music is extremely magical. It was a single piece of music that changed my self and my life forever. One day after listening to J.S. Bach's "Toccata and Fugue in d minor" something within me was awakened and it inspired me to major in piano technique and musical composition. This was always something I knew I wanted to do, all I needed was a magical catalyst to ignite that flame of passion within me. Magicians are extreme individuals and must walk their own unique path in life and work their own unique magics in the universe. What I have told you here is just one magicians point of view and life experience practicing magic.

Xeper.
/Adramelek\
 
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Sylvan

Unrepentant goofer duster
I'd say its "more than prayer". There are many threads already here and in the Magic DIR in which specific questions or concerns can be addressed. Magic is a complex subject and one people spend their whole lives trying to come to terms with, often without resolving many central issues or concerns. I have seen pretty impressive unmistakable physical effects from magic but nothing like is imagined in popular culture. Adramelek made some good points too.
 

apophenia

Well-Known Member
Aleister Crowley had a very simple definition of magick ( a term he coined).

He said magick was any change caused by an act of will. This definition is in the opening section of his book 'Magick in Theory and Practice'.

By that he meant to differentiate between conditioned or instinctual behaviour and consciously intended behaviour.

Very simple really.
 

blackout

Violet.
Ritual Magic is Psycho(logical) Drama,
initiated for some (personal) purpose,
usually to bring about some (desired) change or manifestation.
(people do this in many forms, styles and ways)

Visionary Magic is also Psycho(logical) Drama,
but has more to do with how one sees and 'reads'
what surrounds them.

Magic is "made Manifest" (activated)
or "is Seen" (observed)
due to the overlay of (One's) subjective and objective reality.

The first activates from the inside >> out.
The second initiates from the outside >> in.

Those really amazing synchronicities (co'incidences)
we (all?) experience
give rise to Wonder in some of us.
How much co'incidence is truly random?

Even if every amazing synchronicity in my life
were nothing more than a percieved link
between the world within me
and the world beyond me
still I would call these incidences 'magical',

as they have all changed my state of being
(inside and out)
for the better.


It's a lot to try to convey in a few lines.
 
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Sylvan

Unrepentant goofer duster
Aleister Crowley had a very simple definition of magick ( a term he coined).
He said magick was any change caused by an act of will. This definition is in the opening section of his book 'Magick in Theory and Practice'.
By that he meant to differentiate between conditioned or instinctual behaviour and consciously intended behaviour.
Very simple really.

That's too simple for me. That stupid K. Uncle Al had his moments of genius, I'll agree, but reducing magical practice to a psychological exercise is something I don't believe he ever intended. Also I will say an evaluation of the work of Crowley must be considered in the context of his life and career, for he later repudiated as useless many of his earlier texts and perspectives written in those texts. As a lot of the "magic" work I do involves negotiated communication with beings I consider to literally exist separate from my mind or experience of reality, that definition becomes increasingly un-simple.
 
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The Wizard

Active Member
To me Magic/Magick is the Art of altering or disrupting the equilibrium of the subjective universe in order to produce a proportionate change in the equilibrium of the objective universe in accordance with the desire and will of the Magician.

Magic is the willful act of creative/destructive change or alteration both within ourselves and in the world around us. The "power of prayer" is magic for when you pray to whatever god(s) or goddess(es) you are sending forth into the universe your desire and will for change within your self, within others, in your life, the life of others, or change in the world. All Magic originates within the mind and is usually invoked out of need or self-expressive manifestation.

The difference between the magician and the rest of humanities use of magic is that the magician uses it consciously and deliberatly utilizing multiple techniques, and the magician understands the mechanics of how and why magic works. Which primarily has to do with psychic energy and will-power.

I use magic to evolve my self, to enhance my life and the lives of my friends and loved ones, and to curse my enemies, for knowledge and understanding, for creative self-expression, to bring forth willed change in the world around me. For instance, as a musician, when I compose a piece of music I am bringing forth into being within the universe a new creation spawned from my own mind. That is an act of magic, an act of creation and change within the objective universe. Music is extremely magical. It was a single piece of music that changed my self and my life forever. One day after listening to J.S. Bach's "Toccata and Fugue in d minor" something within me was awakened and it inspired me to major in piano technique and musical composition. This was always something I knew I wanted to do, all I needed was a magical catalyst to ignite that flame of passion within me. Magicians are extreme individuals and must walk their own unique path in life and work their own unique magics in the universe. What I have told you here is just one magicians point of view and life experience practicing magic.

Xeper.
/Adramelek\
Never forget that "passion is a potent potion." Thanks for your response here Adramelek. It's good to know the things that I know does not make me a lonely soul in the World. With regards...

Pengiun, magic is just harnessing specific laws of cause and effect most people wouldn't understand or even accept. Applying science will usually destroy it, for most of such processes are dependant on a certain state of mind- yes, the inner world and envirement. Just like the reason many people learn to ignore such obnoxious scientific scepticism towards their various religious beliefs or spirituality, becouse the adaption of such thought and reasoning will destroy the ability for creating true magic and miracle...

Since I have substantial Cherokee ancestry for some reason certain NA traits became dominant in my Life. The magic I routinely experience is related to nature... It was only later on in life I discovered a more than regular connection and communication to animals and nature. It found me... All is Mind and Will is a manifestation device...
 

apophenia

Well-Known Member
That's too simple for me. That stupid K. Uncle Al had his moments of genius, I'll agree, but reducing magical practice to a psychological exercise is something I don't believe he ever intended.

The introduction to "Magick in Theory and Practice" makes it unambiguously clear that he meant precisely that.

Also I will say an evaluation of the work of Crowley must be considered in the context of his life and career, for he later repudiated as useless many of his earlier texts and perspectives written in those texts. As a lot of the "magic" work I do involves negotiated communication with beings I consider to literally exist separate from my mind or experience of reality, that definition becomes increasingly un-simple.

He also said that the ability to actually communicate with anybody was a major magickal achievement. In other words, in terms of both will and communication he was of the opinion that examples of either were rare enough to be called magick.

He did say that an example of powerful magick could be the right words whispered in a prepared ear e.g. diplomacy.

Regarding changes in his later life, I remember a telling section at the end of his Hagiography - it was an appeal to the 'Secret Chiefs' to consider his system of magick as the basis for general public education.

I doubt that he considered the Secret Chiefs to be other than the ruling families, the inner sanctum of the 1%, not spirits or aliens or whatever.

He was a prankster who enjoyed playing games with people's credulity, and considered most practitioners of the 'occult' to be psychotic or just plain silly.

BTW ... communication with powerful non-human entities can easily be achieved in 5 minutes by any town yogi who knows about dissociative psychedelics or ayahuasca.
 

Iti oj

Global warming is real and we need to act
Premium Member
This question is more loaded then my waffle fries
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Hmm. Thanks for all your responses, but I think they may have left me even more unsure.

Maybe a different approach will help...

I get that magick is about exerting your will in some way... that it's about changing things. So.. what sorts of things would you try to change using magick? What sorts of problems would make you say, "yes, magick can help me here" and what sort would make you say "no, magick wouldn't work here"?
 

Infinitum

Possessed Bookworm
Hmm. Thanks for all your responses, but I think they may have left me even more unsure.

Maybe a different approach will help...

I get that magick is about exerting your will in some way... that it's about changing things. So.. what sorts of things would you try to change using magick? What sorts of problems would make you say, "yes, magick can help me here" and what sort would make you say "no, magick wouldn't work here"?
No sense trying to change next week's lottery numbers :D
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Hmm. Thanks for all your responses, but I think they may have left me even more unsure.

Maybe a different approach will help...

I get that magick is about exerting your will in some way... that it's about changing things. So.. what sorts of things would you try to change using magick? What sorts of problems would make you say, "yes, magick can help me here" and what sort would make you say "no, magick wouldn't work here"?

[NOTE: I use the word 'spellcraft' in place of magic... for reasons that are somewhat unimportant to this thread. Just understand that when I say spellcraft, I mean what folks are talking about as 'magic' here.]

According to some practitioners, spellcraft isn't that distinct from ritual. Whenever you're performing a religious devotion, you're doing spellcraft of some form or another. Additionally, some practitioners will go so far as to say that all human behaviors are acts of spellcraft. How I usually distinguish it is to say that spellcraft uses methods which are not mainstream or seen as occult/metaphysical in nature.

The implications of the above is you can use spellcraft for anything and everything. Where you use it is up to the individual practitioner, as whether or not a behavior is considered spellcraft in the first place. There are all sorts of other rules folks will suggest, of course, but I'm not big on those.
 

Sylvan

Unrepentant goofer duster
Regarding changes in his later life, I remember a telling section at the end of his Hagiography - it was an appeal to the 'Secret Chiefs' to consider his system of magick as the basis for general public education. I doubt that he considered the Secret Chiefs to be other than the ruling families, the inner sanctum of the 1%, not spirits or aliens or whatever.
He was a prankster who enjoyed playing games with people's credulity, and considered most practitioners of the 'occult' to be psychotic or just plain silly.

BTW ... communication with powerful non-human entities can easily be achieved in 5 minutes by any town yogi who knows about dissociative psychedelics or ayahuasca


Well ok then. A shame that this thread had to be about Crowley because of the K. This isn't a debate forum, but needless to say I disagree. Mostly with the latter statement. Untested psychedelic experiences lead to self not outward directed communications most of the time in my experience, but thats ok. The closer I get to bona fide mediumship and percieving clearly the actions/reactions of these beings in the physical world, the further I must get from any kind of intoxicants.. but that's just me. I guess I'd prefer being psychotic then an athiest Thelemite. Or maybe just different kinds of magicians do different kinds of magic, much as they interpret Crowley.
 

apophenia

Well-Known Member
Well ok then. A shame that this thread had to be about Crowley because of the K. This isn't a debate forum, but needless to say I disagree. Mostly with the latter statement. Untested psychedelic experiences lead to self not outward directed communications most of the time in my experience, but thats ok. The closer I get to bona fide mediumship and percieving clearly the actions/reactions of these beings in the physical world, the further I must get from any kind of intoxicants.. but that's just me. I guess I'd prefer being psychotic then an athiest Thelemite. Or maybe just different kinds of magicians do different kinds of magic, much as they interpret Crowley.

I know it's not just about AC. But the questioner did use the term magick, which is a classic AC term. Anyway the thread is not dominated by my remark.

I notice everyone seems very coy about answering 9/10thsPenguin's question directly, i.e. what do you actually use magick for ?

So far the answers are extremely vague. I'm not being negative or intending to denigrate anyone in saying that.But apart from hyperbolic and poetic language which amounts to 'getting what you want', or 'wanting in a stylised and elaborate way' nothing meaningful has been said here.

So please don't hold back - what is magic, with or without a K, used for which distinguishes it from focussing one's intention ?

Learning to focus intention is certainly valuable, but hardly needs a special name and language.
 

Sylvan

Unrepentant goofer duster
True enough. I use very straight magic. Money acquisition, for instance, although I am certainly not rich by any means. I just don't have the motivation to do so. But when I was working jobs where tips are a factor I spent years experimenting with various combinations and techniques that seemed to "work the best". Did I come up with any sure fire conclusions? Nope. Not even close, although I made a fair amount of easy money. I have described techniques I use as a musician and occassional show promoter to get people to come out to shows in previous threads in the Magic DIR, which work well when I can be bothered to stomach the music scene. I have done (primarily as an aid/ancilliary worker) healing for people in both a psychological context (overcoming addiction) and physical (cancer) in tandem with normal doctors and in both cases it seemed to help.

I have also experienced many strange things, both in terms of amusing coincidence and actual physical effects such as spirits "drinking" full bottles of rose oil or rum by simply touching them, or the classic apparations of fire with no percievable source. I accept that I may be crazy, and this is my entertainment, but I have been pretty much convinced otherwise.. maybe that is some kind of pathetic "faith".. I couldn't say.

And then there is the whole subject of spirit communication.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
[NOTE: I use the word 'spellcraft' in place of magic... for reasons that are somewhat unimportant to this thread. Just understand that when I say spellcraft, I mean what folks are talking about as 'magic' here.]

According to some practitioners, spellcraft isn't that distinct from ritual. Whenever you're performing a religious devotion, you're doing spellcraft of some form or another. Additionally, some practitioners will go so far as to say that all human behaviors are acts of spellcraft. How I usually distinguish it is to say that spellcraft uses methods which are not mainstream or seen as occult/metaphysical in nature.
Right - I know one of the previous posts suggested that any act of will is an act of magic. What I'm trying to figure out is what people believe they can do with magic that I don't think I can do by natural means. I'm more interested in finding out where you think the limits of your capabilities are than the labels we use for different types of actions.

The implications of the above is you can use spellcraft for anything and everything. Where you use it is up to the individual practitioner, as whether or not a behavior is considered spellcraft in the first place. There are all sorts of other rules folks will suggest, of course, but I'm not big on those.
What do you mean by this? Do you mean something like "whatever you can do, you can do magically", or do you actually mean that anything and everything imaginable is within (or potentially within?) your ability?

I mean, we've had one person here say that magick won't let him predict or manipulate the lottery (though we've had another who says that it can). I assume - maybe wrongly - that most practitioners of magick don't believe they can do "movie magic"-type things like levitate or materialize objects out of thin air... but what I'd like to find out is what things they do believe they can do that I would think are beyond my capabilities.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Right - I know one of the previous posts suggested that any act of will is an act of magic. What I'm trying to figure out is what people believe they can do with magic that I don't think I can do by natural means. I'm more interested in finding out where you think the limits of your capabilities are than the labels we use for different types of actions.

Oh. I have a disagreement with an assumption in here: spellcraft isn't a natural means. I find that it is. Preternatural (i.e., beyond what is considered normal) in some instances, but still definitely natural. Like anything else, it definitely has limits. Seems its up to individual practitioners to figure out where that is, and much of how you interpret it would depend on your metaphysical worldview. Someone with a supernaturalistic interpretation of the art is going to look at it much differently than someone like me.


What do you mean by this? Do you mean something like "whatever you can do, you can do magically", or do you actually mean that anything and everything imaginable is within (or potentially within?) your ability?

What I mean is you can use spellcraft as a method for any sort of goal you want, so I suppose I mean something more like the first thing you said. I very much find humans have limits. We are not, after all, omniscient, all-knowing, etc.

As for the examples you discuss in that last paragraph of your post, it's a tricky thing. Much of it comes down to personal belief, I think. What one person calls coincidence, another person calls magic. In the end, we really cannot prove that our spells caused the effect. If it gets to the point we can do that, it becomes science, not spellcraft. What spellcraft is capable of will also depend on what level of reality you're talking about. You can do a heck of a lot more in the otherworlds than you can in what most call the "real" world. For example, you can definitely levitate in the otherworlds. You definitely cannot do so in the "real" world. You can't violate real-world laws of physics and such.
 

apophenia

Well-Known Member
Right - I know one of the previous posts suggested that any act of will is an act of magic. What I'm trying to figure out is what people believe they can do with magic that I don't think I can do by natural means. I'm more interested in finding out where you think the limits of your capabilities are than the labels we use for different types of actions.


What do you mean by this? Do you mean something like "whatever you can do, you can do magically", or do you actually mean that anything and everything imaginable is within (or potentially within?) your ability?

I mean, we've had one person here say that magick won't let him predict or manipulate the lottery (though we've had another who says that it can). I assume - maybe wrongly - that most practitioners of magick don't believe they can do "movie magic"-type things like levitate or materialize objects out of thin air... but what I'd like to find out is what things they do believe they can do that I would think are beyond my capabilities.

OK. The supreme example of magick is the Tibetan practice of tong len.Tong len means giving and receiving. Tong len is the magick of Loving Kindness. Loving Kindness is the motivation, the method and the result. Compared to Loving Kindness, all other forms of magick are dross.

There are many forms of tong len, but the basic principle and action is easy to understand. Here is an example -

You know a person who is suffering. The suffering may be physical, emotional or mental. To begin, you practice shamatha meditation, which means resting in tranquility. Then you imagine the person who is suffering, and visualise their suffering as a cloud of dark smoke enveloping them like an aura.

You consciously amplify the feelings of compassion and goodwill toward this person. You begin a process of deep but relaxed yogic breathing. During the inhalation, you visualise inhaling the the dark smoke into yourself. Inhale it into your heart centre, the place where you feel the sensation of loving kindness.

Adopt the attitude that you will accept the suffering in yourself, renounce any feelings of self-protection, allow the negativity embodied by the dark smoke to be fully absorbed in your heart centre.

During the exhalation, you visualise (imagine is a better word perhaps) the positive state which you wish for the suffering person leaving your heart centre and travelling into the person for whom you are doing tong len.

For example, if the person is suffering fear, you generate a feeling of fearless confidence and 'see' that feeling travel from your heart into the other person.

If the person is suffering pain, you imagine a feeling of comfort and well-being and 'see' that feeling travel from your heart into the heart of the other person.

Continue this practice until you have visualised the whole cloud of dark smoke disappear from the other person and be totally absorbed in yourself. As far as you are able, take the attitude that you will accept their negative condition and absorb it into yourself, without fear.

Do this practice as many times and for as long as it seems necessary.


This practice produces profound results. Many so-called magicians and witches will tell you that this is crazy advice which could do you terrible harm. Ignore them. They are simply still attached to self-cherishing.

I have used this technique to, among other purposes, resolve longstanding animosity between myself and others. The first time I used it that way produced an instant and startling result. A man had been a friend but through circumstances become an enemy. I practiced tong len to relieve him of his animosity, and unexpectedly met him a short while later. He crossed a crowded room of people and without a word embraced me in a heartfelt loving way.

This method is so simple to understand and practice, yet often extremely difficult to bring yourself to do.

One lama was being asked by students if this was a safe practice. A student asked "but what if I get sick myself ?". The lama laughed and said " well, you will know that it is working !"

I practiced tong len for a cat which had been abused and had a broken hip, and was unable to comfortably walk. I really loved that cat, and practiced tong len, fully prepared to accept the pain myself if necessary. The cat had an extraordinary recovery, a real surprise even to the vet - a few days after my practice a dog ran under the wheel of my pushbike (unhurt thankfully), and I broke a bone in my left hand, which was a bummer because I play guitar. But I was prepared to accept that, and my hand healed with no problem.

Generally though, the practitioner is not harmed. In fact I was not really harmed either, the experience was good for the soul.

I could give various other examples, of tong len and other forms of magick. Maybe I will. Watch this space !
 
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