The Big Bang, Evolution, Creation, Life etc.

[LegionOnomaMoi]

If i have been sitting still in a chair for eternity, there IS no time.

Why?

Before that moment God existed in a timeless and changeless state, just like a man sitting still in a chair for eternity exists in a timeless and changeless state.

"exists" and "sitting still" are events or actions. They occur through time (hence your use of the simple and continuous present).

If his will never changed then how does this imply a period of time???

Always is a temporal adverb. It describes a state through time.

Change is temporal concept.

A particle of dust can sit at the center of the universe, unmoving, unchanging, for the entire history of the universe. Which means it's been there, unchanging, in time, for ~14 or ~15 billion years. Unchanging doesn't mean atemporal.

but before

"Before" speaks to a time prior to the universe. But there was no time "before" the universe, so to even speak of a "before" has no meaning.
From Professsor Michael Woolfson's Time, Space, Stars, and Man: The Story of the Big Bang (Imperial College Press, 2009): Like any sensible person you will ask the question, "What was the state of affairs before the Big Bang?", to which you will receive the answer, "There is no such thing as before the Big Bang because time did not exist until the Big Bang occured."

 

[Gharib]

It is wrong to think of quantum objects has having a defined place to be. It would be more accurate to think of them as a cloud that is thicker in some places than it is in others.

Yes, but you've got to keep the books straight in the process. There are 9 quantities that must be conserved, among them mass-energy, momentum (both varieties) and electric charge. However, if you can get those to add up correctly, be my guest.

Also, here's your citation: Everything not forbidden is compulsory!

sorry for the late reply, i had to think about this before i posted again until i understood your post properly.

according to what you said, a sub-atomic particle cannot come to exist by itself unless the '9 quantities are conserved'. these same quantities are what applied to the first sub-atomic particle before it expanded to what we now call the 'Universe'. but if matter, energy and space did not exist before our universe came to existence, how could it be possible for that initial sub-atomic particle to come to exist out of nowhere all by itself and out of nothing?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

So if it wasn't such a unique/new and intriguing idea the why was a whole religion a result of it?? If the both the early Christians and the Christians of today didnt believe that Jesus rose from the dead, there would be no Christianity. The religion is based on this one act alone.



I dont need to make Jesus special. He will be special regardless of what I think or what you think.



First of all, i couldnt care less how unimpressive it is to you. To normal people, someone raising from the dead is signficant. If I have a friend, one of my best friends tell me "Hey man, tomorrow i will get my head blown off right in front of you. I will be dead as a doornob. After i get my head blown off in front of you, i will see you at the 40/40 club in New York three days later." Tomorrow comes, me and my friend is sitting in a car, another car drives up and shoots, blows my friend head right off. I am hysterical, cant believe this is happening. I remember my friend told me that three days later he will be at the club, so after three days, i go to the club, and when I walk inside i see my friend at the bar taking shots off a womans cleavage, and he looks up at me and "what were you crying for? I told you what would happen". hahaha

I would say that is rather.....impressive. If you dont think that a person that rises from the dead is impressive, so what. Christians do, which is why it is the #1 religion in the world, because we dont shrug a person that rises from the dead as unimpressive. We see it as a supernatural occurence from the Almighty, regardless of what anyone else thinks.

Why do i keep talking to you anyway??

Islam is #1 in terms of having the most adherents, and intelligent people simply aren't impressed by fictional events written in a work of fiction. We realize they didn't actually occur.

This seems to be yet another documented case of 'someone' demanding the answer to a question they really didn't want to have answered.

 

[PolyHedral]

according to what you said, a sub-atomic particle cannot come to exist by itself unless the '9 quantities are conserved'. these same quantities are what applied to the first sub-atomic particle before it expanded to what we now call the 'Universe'.

Yes, but balancing them is comparatively easy, because there are different types of particles. For instance, imagine a hydrogen atom flying in one direction, and an anti-hydrogen atom (a atom built out of 1 anti-proton, and 1 anti-electron) flying at an equal speed in the opposite direction. The only reason that this stuff can't pop out of the vacuum spontaneously is because the popping would not conserve total energy; it conserves electric charge (0), linear momentum (also 0), angular momentum, and all the other values. If there was some particle that had negative total energy, then it could be included, and then the whole group of stuff could pop into existence spontaneously with no problem.

but if matter, energy and space did not exist before our universe came to existence, how could it be possible for that initial sub-atomic particle to come to exist out of nowhere all by itself and out of nothing?

He's a very counter-intuitive, though AFAIK true, thought: by definition, space has always existed, because it is part of spacetime. Although there was a first moment in time, there was never a point where time or space did not exist.

As to where the particle came from, check the link again. If it is not forbidden by quantum mechanics, (and as explained above, some configurations aren't) there is a very small chance that it will occur spontaneously.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Although there was a first moment in time, there was never a point where time or space did not exist.

Do you mean that there was "never a point where time or space did not exist" because one can't speak about "points in time" before time, or that time and space existed before the universe/big bang?

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

Why?

Because "time" is defined as "a dimension that enables two identical events occuring at the same pont is space to be distinguished, measured by the interval between the events." If i have been sitting in a chair perfectly still for eternity, there ARE no two identical points of intervals to be distinguished. So existence along cannot be temporal on its own. There has to be a change that distinguishes it from at least one past point.

"exists" and "sitting still" are events or actions. They occur through time (hence your use of the simple and continuous present).

They are acts that never began. If I have been sitting for eternity, and then began my first effort to stand up, how much time elapsed from my first effort to get up and the preceding moments?? This is impossible to answer if there was no time before my first effort to get up.

Always is a temporal adverb. It describes a state through time.

Always in the sense of eternity, which can be used to describe timelessness.

A particle of dust can sit at the center of the universe, unmoving, unchanging, for the entire history of the universe. Which means it's been there, unchanging, in time, for ~14 or ~15 billion years. Unchanging doesn't mean atemporal.

But you do know that the entire history of the universe is a finite number, which is roughly between 14-15 billion years as you indicate. The very fact that we can place an age on the universe is evident enough that the universe is finite and therefore material entities within it is also finite. Once you are temporal, you will remain temporal forever. God was atemporal before the universe, and once the time began to exist as a result of the universe, then God became temporal.

"Before" speaks to a time prior to the universe. But there was no time "before" the universe, so to even speak of a "before" has no meaning.

There was a "causually" prior, but not a "temporal" prior. So in other words, there was a causual being that existed that was not related to time. This being caused time and became temporal only after this creation.

From Professsor Michael Woolfson's Time, Space, Stars, and Man: The Story of the Big Bang (Imperial College Press, 2009): Like any sensible person you will ask the question, "What was the state of affairs before the Big Bang?", to which you will receive the answer, "There is no such thing as before the Big Bang because time did not exist until the Big Bang occured."

Exactly, and no one is arguing that there was time before the big bang. I actually agree with the Professor here :yes:

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

Islam is #1 in terms of having the most adherents, and intelligent people simply aren't impressed by fictional events written in a work of fiction. We realize they didn't actually occur.

This seems to be yet another documented case of 'someone' demanding the answer to a question they really didn't want to have answered.

As i said, Christianity is the worlds biggest religion. Major Religions Ranked by Size, Major religious groups - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

Actually, as a matter of fact, you are using the present perfect continuous to say ''i have been sitting still in the chair for eternity''. It implies time. Time is a necessity.

Can you distinguish two points within this "time"? If you cant, then this is exactly why there wasn't any time.

 

[Daviso452]

They are acts that never began. If I have been sitting for eternity, and then began my first effort to stand up, how much time elapsed from my first effort to get up and the preceding moments?? This is impossible to answer if there was no time before my first effort to get up.

But in order for you to sit for eternity, there must be time. With the Big Bang, the singularity had not been there for "an eternity" because time had not passed. But to answer the question in the beginning of this, if you stood up, you could have still been sitting for an eternity. Think of it like a parabola. It can only reach a certain maximum/minimum. This is when you stand. But it goes on for eternity before that.

Either way, its a weird concept to grasp.

But you do know that the entire history of the universe is a finite number, which is roughly between 14-15 billion years as you indicate. The very fact that we can place an age on the universe is evident enough that the universe is finite and therefore material entities within it is also finite. Once you are temporal, you will remain temporal forever. God was atemporal before the universe, and once the time began to exist as a result of the universe, then God became temporal.

This was when the event known as the big bang occurred. prior to that, the universe was held up in a timeless singularity. True statement. The singularity was timeless.

As i said, Christianity is the worlds biggest religion. Major Religions Ranked by Size, Major religious groups - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That's how many people are deluded?

Can you distinguish two points within this "time"? If you cant, then this is exactly why there wasn't any time.

Again, you weren't sitting for an eternity if you were timeless. Either you were there for eternity or not. If so, then it could be an eternity prior. If not, time did not begin until you stood up.

 

[Koldo]

Can you distinguish two points within this "time"? If you cant, then this is exactly why there wasn't any time.

If it's timeless, and time never existed before, then there isn't even one point.
To say that something exists or existed, time is a requirement.

When a verb is conjugated, it is done so in accordance to time.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Because "time" is defined as "a dimension that enables two identical events occuring at the same pont is space to be distinguished, measured by the interval between the events."

Did you read your definition carefully? It doesn't say "requires" two identical events. It says enables.

If i have been sitting in a chair perfectly still for eternity, there ARE no two identical points of intervals to be distinguished.

Sitting in a chair is an event. It happens through time. You can try it. Sit in a chair for a minute, perfectly still. Look at a clock before and after. You'll find that a minute has passed.

So existence along cannot be temporal on its own. There has to be a change that distinguishes it from at least one past point.

Not even according to your definition. All there has to be is the ability for such points.

If I have been sitting for eternity, and then began my first effort to stand up

Impossible. You used the (continuous) perfect "have been sitting" and followed it by "began my first." The problem is that eternity is "all of time." You can't "sit for eternity" and then do something. Otherwise you weren't sitting for eternity. You were sitting for a long period of time. If something is in a certain state "for eternity" then that's the way it always is. Otherwise, no eternity.

Always in the sense of eternity, which can be used to describe timelessness.

It's used to describe all of time. That's what eternity means.

God was atemporal before the universe

There was no "before" the universe.

There was a "causually" prior, but not a "temporal" prior.

The former requires the latter.

 

[idav]

There was no "before" the universe.

There is indeed a "before" space-time therefore before the universe. The singularity was before the universe but it still is no reason to insert 'god did it'.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

The singularity was before the universe

We say "before" but it wasn't. It can't be. The singularity, as I've said before, is a "point" in 0-dimensional space. We can talk about it as a "point" in this space "before" the universe, but we are imposing a temporal reality in an atemporal one. We simply don't have the ability (linguistically) to describe anything in an atemporal reality. Our language, like our thought, is fundamentally temporal. For example, every finite verb has tense, and every complete sentence has a finite verb.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

But in order for you to sit for eternity, there must be time.

Why cant you distinguish two points prior to me standing up then???

With the Big Bang, the singularity had not been there for "an eternity" because time had not passed.

No one that I am aware of has argued this point

But to answer the question in the beginning of this, if you stood up, you could have still been sitting for an eternity. Think of it like a parabola. It can only reach a certain maximum/minimum. This is when you stand. But it goes on for eternity before that.

If there was no change, there was no time. If i have been sitting perfectly still from eternity, then i begin to stand up, and then sit back down. We can count how long it took for me to stand up and sit down, but we cant count how long I was sitting BEFORE I began to stand up, because there was moment prior to this action.

Either way, its a weird concept to grasp.

No doubt about that :yes:

This was when the event known as the big bang occurred. prior to that, the universe was held up in a timeless singularity. True statement. The singularity was timeless.

The singularity was simultaneous with the beginning of time. The singularity is not independent of time. If the singularity was in a timeless state, why did our universe begin to exist only 13.7 billion years ago?? Why not later? Why not sooner? But on the Christian view, the universe began to exist 13.7 billion years ago because of a being with free will to create it at a time that he choose. This was an eternal will.

That's how many people are deluded?

That is also how many people that refuse to believe that life can come from non-life.

Again, you weren't sitting for an eternity if you were timeless. Either you were there for eternity or not.

Actually, eternity can be meant to be used in the sense of timelessness, as even wikipedia states Eternity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If so, then it could be an eternity prior. If not, time did not begin until you stood up.

Thats what I have been saying, time did not begin until i stood up.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

[/b]
Did you read your definition carefully? It doesn't say "requires" two identical events. It says enables.

Well in order to distinguish something there has to be at least one other thing to compare it to. This is a requirement.

Sitting in a chair is an event. It happens through time. You can try it. Sit in a chair for a minute, perfectly still. Look at a clock before and after. You'll find that a minute has passed.

As I said before, once you become temporal, you are always temporal. So of course if i sat still in a chair right now, time will move on. But if I have been sitting in a chair for eternity and never moved, then there was never a BEGINNING point at which i sat down or stood up. If there was never a beginning (an initial point of reference), then there wasn't any temporal moments prior to me sitting.

Not even according to your definition. All there has to be is the ability for such points.

Huh?

Impossible. You used the (continuous) perfect "have been sitting" and followed it by "began my first."

It is not impossible. There was no preceding moments in time before I "began" my first movement. If there was an preceding moment, tell me how many moments led up to me standing up?? For example, I can say "I have been in TN for a year.", I can only say this if there was a distinguishable interval between the present moment I am here, and the first moment that I arrived here. But if I have been sitting for eternity, there are no two moments that i can compare to my current state and my "beginning" state, because there was no beginning.

The problem is that eternity is "all of time." You can't "sit for eternity" and then do something. Otherwise you weren't sitting for eternity. You were sitting for a long period of time. If something is in a certain state "for eternity" then that's the way it always is. Otherwise, no eternity.

As i told Davies, eternity can mean "throughout all time", or "timelessness" Eternity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[idav]

We say "before" but it wasn't. It can't be. The singularity, as I've said before, is a "point" in 0-dimensional space. We can talk about it as a "point" in this space "before" the universe, but we are imposing a temporal reality in an atemporal one. We simply don't have the ability (linguistically) to describe anything in an atemporal reality. Our language, like our thought, is fundamentally temporal. For example, every finite verb has tense, and every complete sentence has a finite verb.

With the singularity there was still time and still space it just wasn't space-time.

 

[PolyHedral]

We say "before" but it wasn't. It can't be. The singularity, as I've said before, is a "point" in 0-dimensional space. We can talk about it as a "point" in this space "before" the universe, but we are imposing a temporal reality in an atemporal one. We simply don't have the ability (linguistically) to describe anything in an atemporal reality. Our language, like our thought, is fundamentally temporal. For example, every finite verb has tense, and every complete sentence has a finite verb.

Well, maths can do it easily. The issue is that the maths doesn't translate anything intuitively graspable.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

That Big Bang show is totally overrated. How many jokes about geeks playing rpg's can they possibly come up with?

 

[Daviso452]

Why cant you distinguish two points prior to me standing up then???

Yes. 10 minutes before you stood up, and 30 minutes before you stood up. You can go back infinitely. You can go back 14 billion years before you stood up, or 19 trillion years before you stood up. Two distinguishable points.

If there was no change, there was no time. If i have been sitting perfectly still from eternity, then i begin to stand up, and then sit back down. We can count how long it took for me to stand up and sit down, but we cant count how long I was sitting BEFORE I began to stand up, because there was moment prior to this action.

Infinity doesn't have to stretch in both directions. Think of a number line. You standing up is at point 0. 0 - infinity refers to all the time prior to when you stood up. There is no start to this, but the points are still distinguishable nonetheless.

Remember with Einstein's theory, everything is relative. Same as events. The time before you stood up is, as it implies, relative to when you stood up. Same withe the actual action of standing up. When you stand up, the time is 0. While you were sitting down, time was negative. The two points could be 20 minutes prior at your location, or zero minutes prior at your location. Two different points.

The singularity was simultaneous with the beginning of time. The singularity is not independent of time. If the singularity was in a timeless state, why did our universe begin to exist only 13.7 billion years ago?? Why not later? Why not sooner? But on the Christian view, the universe began to exist 13.7 billion years ago because of a being with free will to create it at a time that he choose. This was an eternal will.

Because there IS NO later or sooner to the singularity, just like God. Why didn't God make the earth later or sooner? Because to him, there is no such thing. If he existed, I mean.

That is also how many people that refuse to believe that life can come from non-life.

Rofl!

Actually, eternity can be meant to be used in the sense of timelessness, as even wikipedia states Eternity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You used a wikipedia article! No way! And it says "many have used it to refer to a timeless existence"? Does that mean they aren't actually synonymous?

Please use something more legit.

That's what I have been saying, time did not begin until i stood up.

There is a difference between eternal and timeless. Unless you come up with a scientific source which states the are the exact same, you cannot inter-changeably use the two. They are two different words with two different definitions. Please use one or the other.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Well, maths can do it easily. The issue is that the maths doesn't translate anything intuitively graspable.

Right. I can talk about a point in 0 or 1000th dimensional space in math without a problem. However, as you say, the relationship between mathematical dimensions doesn't translate very well past 3. It took Einstein to understand we live in a (at least) a 4-dimensional reality.