The Big Bang, Evolution, Creation, Life etc.

[Gharib]

i would like to discuss some topics regarding the creation/coming into existence of our universe and life as we know it up to about this point in time.

i will be arguing from the creation side of the story namely from the islamic side, since i myself am a muslim and a creationist, but i do encourage other members of other faiths as well as other muslims to participate if they wish.

i have opened another thread similar to this but unfortunately, i cannot ask questions that don't have anything to do with evolution, namely Natural Selection. so i decided to open this thread and name it in the way that i have and thus leaves open a range of topics to be discussed under the one thread.

i will also be making one question at a time as it will be easier to keep track of everyone posting thus making it easy to reply. if any post doesn't get a reply please let me know and i will reply to it.

i appreciate everyones time.

my first question is this:
1. The Big Bang Theory. what can you tell me about it?

although the question is very basic, i am not seeking for others to waste time reading about it and to explain it to me, but rather i am asking a detailed answer on how it all began. if no one from the atheist/evolution side wants to answer it, then i will answer it from the creation side and hopefully the discussion can begin. God willing i will post my answer to the question another time when i am able to. i will explain how islam views it, and what it says on the topic. until then, all the best to everyone.

 

[Zoe Doidge]

Well, I can tell you plenty about what happened after the big bang, but that wont really help us. Hell, you can look on Wikipedia for that.

The relevant part is what (if anything) happened before it, and science hasn't got anything substantial on that yet. So any scientific discussion on how we got here has to start from the assumption that the big bang happened, even if the cause is unknown.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well, I can tell you plenty about what happened after the big bang, but that wont really help us. Hell, you can look on Wikipedia for that.

The relevant part is what (if anything) happened before it, and science hasn't got anything substantial on that yet. So any scientific discussion on how we got here has to start from the assumption that the big bang happened, even if the cause is unknown.

Ditto.

 

[Gharib]

Well, I can tell you plenty about what happened after the big bang, but that wont really help us. Hell, you can look on Wikipedia for that.

The relevant part is what (if anything) happened before it, and science hasn't got anything substantial on that yet. So any scientific discussion on how we got here has to start from the assumption that the big bang happened, even if the cause is unknown.

actually some years back i believe, i was watching a documentary on this and scientists were suggesting that some sort of a gas or cloud is what lead to the big bang.

as a muslim, i do believe that the bang was a result of this cloud, but i do not believe that a random explosion took place and that we exist due to chance, i will hopefully explain this in more detail in my reply to the question i made.

 

[Zoe Doidge]

Right now, that it at best a hypothesis.

Still, we have something in common since I also don't believe we came to be by chance. The whole idea of random chance implies that something else could have happened, and I don't believe that to be the case.

 

[PolyHedral]

There is no reliable source of information about what happened before the Big Bang, however, one thing is known for sure: it won't be describable in any terms a layperson would be familiar with.

(It would be far, far, far too hot for any gas to be stable, for instance.)

 

[Photonic]

There is no reliable source of information about what happened before the Big Bang, however, one thing is known for sure: it won't be describable in any terms a layperson would be familiar with.

(It would be far, far, far too hot for any gas to be stable, for instance.)

It was mostly a quark-gluon soup, so to speak.

 

[Riverwolf]

It was mostly a quark-gluon soup, so to speak.

Which means absolutely nothing to laypeople. ^_^

But if you call it a "soup", you can bet your butt that all kinds of religious groups are going to claim "scientific miracle" because most ancient legends describe pre-creation as vast, infinite water, including the book of Genesis, and the Vedas and Puranas.

 

[Photonic]

Which means absolutely nothing to laypeople. ^_^

But if you call it a "soup", you can bet your butt that all kinds of religious groups are going to claim "scientific miracle" because most ancient legends describe pre-creation as vast, infinite water, including the book of Genesis, and the Vedas and Puranas.

I usually leave the translation of scientific terms to Brian Greene and his kind. It's not because I can't, it's because I like being precise.

 

[idav]

my first question is this:
1. The Big Bang Theory. what can you tell me about it?

This is worth a watch.
[youtube]gs-yWMuBNr4[/youtube]
Stephen Hawking - The Big Bang - YouTube

 

[Riverwolf]

I usually leave the translation of scientific terms to Brian Greene and his kind. It's not because I can't, it's because I like being precise.

Something that lay English most certainly isn't. :no:

 

[Photonic]

Something that lay English most certainly isn't. :no:

Precisely. (no pun intended!)

 

[InformedIgnorance]

I've always had many issues with the Big Bang, for starters its assumption that there is no space outside of the big bang and therefore that all the matter in existence was involved in the big bang is an unsupported and unjustified assumption; there is nothing to contradict the possibility that our segment of the universe was created in such a way, however that does not mean that other portions of the universe could not have pre-existed that big bang or that big-bangs/crunches are going on even now in different parts of the universe (which we are so far unable to detect) in an asynchronous cycle (I would point out that such a model could for example explain phenomena like black holes as being potential initiators of a big-crunch or even a big-bang).

 

[PolyHedral]

I've always had many issues with the Big Bang, for starters its assumption that there is no space outside of the big bang and therefore that all the matter in existence was involved in the big bang is an unsupported and unjustified assumption;

The universe is expanding; the Big Bang is what happens when you plot that expansion backwards billions of years. There isn't anywhere else for anything else to be.

 

[YmirGF]

actually some years back i believe, i was watching a documentary on this and scientists were suggesting that some sort of a gas or cloud is what lead to the big bang.

That is simply not accurate, unless one gives full latitude to the term "some sort", but saying that is virtually meaningless.

There is no reliable source of information about what happened before the Big Bang, however, one thing is known for sure: it won't be describable in any terms a layperson would be familiar with.

But there's the rub, PolyHedral. The point is there is no BEFORE, when talking about the Big Bang, as time began with the event itself and was born out of it.

(It would be far, far, far too hot for any gas to be stable, for instance.)

It would be more realistic to call it a mixture of high energy particles, rather than a gas or cloud. "Gas" in particular conveys the wrong image, imo. It may have been stretched out in the very earliest stages, but prior to the Big Bang it most likely was compressed into a relatively small sphere due to weak/strong forces, if not gravity. Like in a chain-reaction, at one point, it simply hit critical mass.

It was mostly a quark-gluon soup, so to speak.

Well, I am a layperson and I certainly understand what this means, lol. If someone does not know what quarks, charms and gluons are they really ought to investigate the topic before proceeding further.

as a muslim, i do believe that the bang was a result of this cloud, but i do not believe that a random explosion took place and that we exist due to chance, i will hopefully explain this in more detail in my reply to the question i made.

I, for one, can hardly wait. I am sure your explanation with be quite edifying.

 

[PolyHedral]

But there's the rub, PolyHedral. The point is there is no BEFORE, when talking about the Big Bang, as time began with the event itself and was born out of it.

That's what simple Big Bang theory says,but then you get into messes like inflation theory and it's not so simple anymore.

It would be more realistic to call it a mixture of high energy particles, rather than a gas or cloud. "Gas" in particular conveys the wrong image, imo. It may have been stretched out in the very earliest stages, but prior to the Big Bang it most likely was compressed into a relatively small sphere due to weak/strong forces, if not gravity. Like in a chain-reaction, at one point, it simply hit critical mass.

That's what I meant; all possible gases break apart into weirder things. The behaviour of a quark/gluon soup is quantum to the extreme, and IIRC, quantum electrodynamics stops working at some point quite near there.

 

[shawn001]

i would like to discuss some topics regarding the creation/coming into existence of our universe and life as we know it up to about this point in time.

i will be arguing from the creation side of the story namely from the islamic side, since i myself am a muslim and a creationist, but i do encourage other members of other faiths as well as other muslims to participate if they wish.

i have opened another thread similar to this but unfortunately, i cannot ask questions that don't have anything to do with evolution, namely Natural Selection. so i decided to open this thread and name it in the way that i have and thus leaves open a range of topics to be discussed under the one thread.

i will also be making one question at a time as it will be easier to keep track of everyone posting thus making it easy to reply. if any post doesn't get a reply please let me know and i will reply to it.

i appreciate everyones time.

my first question is this:
1. The Big Bang Theory. what can you tell me about it?

although the question is very basic, i am not seeking for others to waste time reading about it and to explain it to me, but rather i am asking a detailed answer on how it all began. if no one from the atheist/evolution side wants to answer it, then i will answer it from the creation side and hopefully the discussion can begin. God willing i will post my answer to the question another time when i am able to. i will explain how islam views it, and what it says on the topic. until then, all the best to everyone.

1. What is the Big Bang theory?
   The Big Bang theory says that the universe was very hot and concentrated in the distant past and, ever since then, space has been stretching and cooling. This is the only theory that successfully explains the observations made by astronomers.
   
   
   Astronomers see galaxies moving apart from one another: space in the universe is stretching. Astronomers see a remarkably uniform microwave glow everywhere in the sky; this is the heat left over from an earlier time, when the universe was very hot. This was predicted by the Big Bang theory BEFORE it was discovered! Astronomers measure how much of each of the lightest chemical elements (like hydrogen, deuterium, and lithium) are in space; their abundances agree with what was calculated to have been in an earlier time when the universe was so hot that it was like a nuclear fusion reactor, building up the lightest elements. The heaviest elements (like carbon, nitrogen, and carbon) were made later in stars. Stars are mostly made of hydrogen. The Big Bang theory explains the most basic observed properties of our universe.
2. What happened before the Big Bang? What happened right at the moment of the Big Bang?
   We don't know. To even address these questions we need to have a quantum theory of gravity. We have a quantum theory, and we have a gravity theory, but these two theories somehow need to be combined. We know that our current gravity theory does not apply to the conditions of the earliest moments of the Big Bang. This is exciting research now in progress!
3. Was the Big Bang an explosion?
   No, the Big Bang was not an explosion. We don't know what, exactly, happened in the earliest times, but it was not an explosion in the usual way that people picture explosions. There was not a bunch of debris that sprang out, whizzing out into the surrounding space. In fact, there was no surrounding space. There was no debris strewn outwards. Space itself has been stretching and carrying material with it.
4. Where did the Big Bang happen?
   Everywhere! Every place in space came from the Big Bang. It is space itself that has stretched. The erroneous concept that you can point to a spot in the sky and say that the Big Bang happened at that spot is a result of the incorrect mental picture of debris flung out through space in an explosion-like event.
5. Doesn't the Big Bang theory require space to be flat?
   No. To explain the stretching of the universe, the analogy of the surface of a balloon is often employed. Spots on the surface of the balloon grow apart as the balloon stretches while being blown up. Sometimes people infer from this analogy that the shape of space is spherical. However, the interior of the balloon has no meaning in this analogy and, therefore, the surface shape (spherical in this case) is only one possibility for the universe.
   Here's a useful way to think about the shape of the universe. Imagine that you're an astronaut in space and that you have two powerful lasers, one in each hand. You point the lasers so parallel beams from the two lasers shine out ahead of you. If the shape of the universe is flat, the beams continue to travel parallel to each other - forward to infinity. If space is spherical, then the two beams will travel across the curved spherical space of the universe and hit you on the backs of your two hands. Likewise, the saddle shape will cause the two beams to diverge/converge according to that shape of that curved space.
   
   The shape of the universe (flat, saddle, or spherical) is not specified by the Big Bang theory so all shapes are permitted. The shape of the universe will be determined by measurements that depend on the way light traverses space, as in the laser example. So far, measurements indicate that space is very nearly flat. This is, of course, the easiest shape for us to mentally picture.
6. What kind of material does the Big Bang theory say the universe is made of?
   The Big Bang theory really does not directly predict anything about what kinds of material are in the universe. We need additional theories to explain why certain amounts of different materials are present. The Big Bang theory does say how the temperature and concentration of materials change, thus allowing us to conclude, for example, that the lightest chemical elements in the universe were made in nuclear fusion reactions when the universe was very hot and concentrated.

1. The Big Bang theory is just a theory. Couldn't it be wrong?
   Yes, it could be wrong. In science, no theory is ever absolutely proved true. Some theories, however, are stronger and better supported than others. This depends on many factors, including how well the theory explains observed facts, whether the theory has made successful predictions later borne out by observation, how long the theory has been around, and whether there are alternate theories that do almost as well. The Big Bang theory is one of the most strongly supported theories in all of science. It explains the observed facts; it has made successful predictions; it has stood the test of time; and there is no alternate theory that the professional scientific community deems valid.
3. New observations could always cause the Big Bang theory to be abandoned, but that is not likely. Scientists have a theory of why the sky is blue. One day you could wake up to find the sky is green and the "blue-sky theory" was wrong, but that's not likely to happen either.
4. It is likely that the Big Bang theory will take on additional add-on ideas, or models, to explain more than it currently explains.

WMAP Site FAQs



The bing bang left an after glow in Microwave light that was predicted before it was found and confirmed.

This is a picture before stars or galaxies existed.

http://hendrix2.uoregon.edu/~imamura/123/lecture-8/cmb-WMAP.JPG


http://cosmos.lbl.gov/Images/resizenowmap.jpg


and

"
By scrutinising the cosmic background heat radiation, astronomers are effectively observing the fading glow of the Universe's fiery birth. The radiation provides a snapshot of the Uni-verse about 300,000 years after the big bang. A simple extrapolation enables us to probe back further, and deduce much about the first few minutes and even seconds after the beginning.
The temperature at the end of the first second was a staggering 10 billion degrees - too hot for composite atomic nuclei to exist. The cosmic material would have been reduced to a soup, or plasma, of subatomic particles. Though this condition seems extreme, it is well within the range of laboratory physics to reproduce. Indeed, subatomic particle accelerators can simulate conditions that prevailed at a mere one trillionth of a second after big bang, when the temperature was 10,000 trillion degrees."

Is the Universe a free lunch? - Arts & Entertainment - The Independent

 

[outhouse]

This is exciting research now in progress!

theory of everything!

still has a long way to go

 

[YmirGF]

The behaviour of a quark/gluon soup is quantum to the extreme, and IIRC, quantum electrodynamics stops working at some point quite near there.

I know. That said, we do need to keep it simple, sort of like the Fishcer-Price "My Big Bang Theory" for the purposes of this discussion, lol.

 

[Photonic]

I know. That said, we do need to keep it simple, sort of like the Fishcer-Price "My Big Bang Theory" for the purposes of this discussion, lol.

Honestly, if you know what a gluon is you know more about the subject than the average layperson.