Thesavorofpan
Is not going to save you.
For the same reason he does anything. It entertains him.
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Why would God send good people to Hell just because they dont believe he exists?
- Thread starter Lord_Dweedle
- Start date
For the same reason he does anything. It entertains him.
Lord_Dweedle. Eternal Damnation is a lie. I CAN HELP YOU.
:angel2::angel2::angel2:
Start by reading Acts 3:21
ellenjanuary
Well-Known Member
Ain't no hell. Tried to discuss this with a Christian, who about wigged. "If Hitler ain't burning in hell, what's the point?" And I'm like, the heck does Hitler have to do with you living your life like a decent human being?
But that about kilt it. I'm in a state of flux where the real world is getting really annoying. Had some pastor at my front door insisting that "we must talk about hell" after I straight told him, being born again in Spirit means eternal life begins now...
But he had no answer for me, he had gospel; and I had to allow him to continue living. Which I sometimes regret, seriously. I get - a little whack - when I begin to explain to people about why hell cannot exist; sometimes the Devil Within wants out - drag the fool into the eternal, see what's what.
But that about kilt it. I'm in a state of flux where the real world is getting really annoying. Had some pastor at my front door insisting that "we must talk about hell" after I straight told him, being born again in Spirit means eternal life begins now...
But he had no answer for me, he had gospel; and I had to allow him to continue living. Which I sometimes regret, seriously. I get - a little whack - when I begin to explain to people about why hell cannot exist; sometimes the Devil Within wants out - drag the fool into the eternal, see what's what.
wordmagnifiedabovenames
Active Member
In regards to judgement in reference to the "Jeff" example in the OP (who was an atheist, but what the world would call a "good" person, who died in a car accident...)
Perhaps God says something along the lines of:
"I'm God (surprise, I do exist,) you're Jeff.
I'm perfect, holy, without sin etc... You're not.
I live in a place called Heaven, where only perfect, holy, blameless etc. people can be.
What is it about you, Jeff, that makes you perfect, holy, blameless etc. enough to enter Heaven? All those 'good' things you've done? Because you didn't have faith, I, God, the one who's in charge of judging everyone, and decides what's really 'good' and 'bad,' see those 'good things' as 'filthy rags.'
Giving to charity, being a loving father and husband; those things might be 'good,' but they don't make you 'perfect' enough to be in Heaven. All those 'good' things you've done don't make up for all the bad things you've done (and said, and thought.)
Because your good deeds don't make up for your bad deeds (and words, and thoughts,) I see you, Jeff as 'unrighteous,' as 'imperfect,' as 'sinful,' as someone who has 'fallen short' of the standard of perfection that I've set. That standard is Jesus. Jeff, are you as perfect as Jesus?
You can't come into Heaven; you're not perfect. What's more, I need to protect the people in Heaven who are perfect from any bad influence you may have on them.
You can't be on Earth; you've died, and even though you're an atheist, there is an 'afterlife.'
There is only one alternative; Hades (then Gehenna.)"
I think that the Bible teaches that what it comes down to is that God's standard of what's "good" (Jesus) is not the same as mans' standard of "good." Mans' standard of "good" (while arguably fulfilling the last 6 of the 10 commandments, which Jesus nicely summarised as "love your neighbour as yourself") is not "good" enough to allow someone entry into Heaven (it doesn't fulfil the first 4 of the 10 commandments, which Jesus summarised as "love the Lord your God with all your.....,") and that there's ultimately only one alternative.
The Bible teaches that what a person believes determines where that person will spend eternity. How a person lives his life (the "good things" that person does) only has an effect on how that person spends eternity if that person believes what God says are the correct things.
The important thing to remember is that it's not a church that sends a person to Hell. A person may be correct in a particular instance when he says that a person may need to change their ways or they will go to Hell, but it's not that person who actually does the condemning. The Bible says "judge not that ye be not judged." That doesn't mean people are not allowed to have opinions on what is right and wrong. A judge is the authority who delivers a sentence. That verse isn't saying that people are not allowed to think that another person is doing the wrong thing, it's saying that a person (who is not God) should not be the one who delivers the sentence.
Perhaps God says something along the lines of:
"I'm God (surprise, I do exist,) you're Jeff.
I'm perfect, holy, without sin etc... You're not.
I live in a place called Heaven, where only perfect, holy, blameless etc. people can be.
What is it about you, Jeff, that makes you perfect, holy, blameless etc. enough to enter Heaven? All those 'good' things you've done? Because you didn't have faith, I, God, the one who's in charge of judging everyone, and decides what's really 'good' and 'bad,' see those 'good things' as 'filthy rags.'
Giving to charity, being a loving father and husband; those things might be 'good,' but they don't make you 'perfect' enough to be in Heaven. All those 'good' things you've done don't make up for all the bad things you've done (and said, and thought.)
Because your good deeds don't make up for your bad deeds (and words, and thoughts,) I see you, Jeff as 'unrighteous,' as 'imperfect,' as 'sinful,' as someone who has 'fallen short' of the standard of perfection that I've set. That standard is Jesus. Jeff, are you as perfect as Jesus?
You can't come into Heaven; you're not perfect. What's more, I need to protect the people in Heaven who are perfect from any bad influence you may have on them.
You can't be on Earth; you've died, and even though you're an atheist, there is an 'afterlife.'
There is only one alternative; Hades (then Gehenna.)"
I think that the Bible teaches that what it comes down to is that God's standard of what's "good" (Jesus) is not the same as mans' standard of "good." Mans' standard of "good" (while arguably fulfilling the last 6 of the 10 commandments, which Jesus nicely summarised as "love your neighbour as yourself") is not "good" enough to allow someone entry into Heaven (it doesn't fulfil the first 4 of the 10 commandments, which Jesus summarised as "love the Lord your God with all your.....,") and that there's ultimately only one alternative.
The Bible teaches that what a person believes determines where that person will spend eternity. How a person lives his life (the "good things" that person does) only has an effect on how that person spends eternity if that person believes what God says are the correct things.
The important thing to remember is that it's not a church that sends a person to Hell. A person may be correct in a particular instance when he says that a person may need to change their ways or they will go to Hell, but it's not that person who actually does the condemning. The Bible says "judge not that ye be not judged." That doesn't mean people are not allowed to have opinions on what is right and wrong. A judge is the authority who delivers a sentence. That verse isn't saying that people are not allowed to think that another person is doing the wrong thing, it's saying that a person (who is not God) should not be the one who delivers the sentence.
OneThatGotAway
Servant of Yahweh God Almighty
If anybody tries to tell you that HELL does not exist; DO NOT just take their word for it. Because, before he was born, there were holy men who wrote and recorded the Holy Words of God in the following Holy Scriptures (Bible):
"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"
"And spared not the old world, but saved Noach the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;"
"And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an [example] unto those that after should live ungodly;" ---- Holy Letter of Peter 2:4-6
"I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death." ---- Holy Book of Revelation 1:18
"And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth." ---- Holy Book of Revelation 6:8
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."
"And death and hell were cast into the LAKE OF FIRE. This is the second death." ---- Holy Book of Revelation 20:13-14
Now if God punished angels in hell with chains of darkness;
If God punished the people of Noach's day in a worldwide flood;
If God punished the people of Sodom and Omarah with fire and brimstone from heaven;
Then Holy Scriptures shows that He will punished the wicked and evil-doers in the Lake of Fire; in which the Devil and Hell will be there.
I think that many Jews, Christians, and Muslims really believed in hell soooo much that the heeded the warnings of these prophets.
"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"
"And spared not the old world, but saved Noach the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;"
"And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an [example] unto those that after should live ungodly;" ---- Holy Letter of Peter 2:4-6
"I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death." ---- Holy Book of Revelation 1:18
"And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth." ---- Holy Book of Revelation 6:8
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."
"And death and hell were cast into the LAKE OF FIRE. This is the second death." ---- Holy Book of Revelation 20:13-14
Now if God punished angels in hell with chains of darkness;
If God punished the people of Noach's day in a worldwide flood;
If God punished the people of Sodom and Omarah with fire and brimstone from heaven;
Then Holy Scriptures shows that He will punished the wicked and evil-doers in the Lake of Fire; in which the Devil and Hell will be there.
I think that many Jews, Christians, and Muslims really believed in hell soooo much that the heeded the warnings of these prophets.
If you mean the grave you are right .
They certainly are not in heaven contrary to christian 'born again' belief.
Mormons believe that only those that have the truth, know it, then willfully rebel against it qualify for eternal damnation. That means that almost all men/women will qualify for some degree of glory in heaven. Contrary to what you have said, only the believers (divine confirmation is required) will be damned . Doesn't that make so much more sense!
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DavyCrocket2003
Well-Known Member
I think that the Bible illustrates what kind of people will go to heaven vs hell.
It is the good people who will go to heaven. Not the ones who believed in/ worshipped the right definition of God. In some cases they are the same.
It is the good people who will go to heaven. Not the ones who believed in/ worshipped the right definition of God. In some cases they are the same.
Rainbow Mage
Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
I agree with you very strongly about this. I will also add that not even the Bible itself teaches all non-Christians will go to hell from my reading of it. It does say though that if a person does A,B, and C they will like go to hell. A,B, and C= various sins.
Hello
What is "I Am" that takes birth and dies yet is alive evermore? What is a pale horse? What is Death? What is sea? What is lake of fire?
...
Muffled
Jesus in me
I have always wondered about this because my Mother died in front of me when I was 17 and for all I knew she was atheist. She was born Jewish, raised in a catholic orphanage (long story) and reverted when she married a Jewish man. She was so angry with her treatment by religious people, like the nuns and her ex-husband she swore off religion. When I was a kid I asked what happens when we die and she said, Nothing! I was shocked and angry and ******. What do you mean we just blink out! "yup".
So fast forward, my sister, raised JINO ( Jewish in name only, we had no real faith in our home) is murdered. But just a few weeks before she started going to Church. I am relieved to this day.
I personally believe that if you do not believe you can not go to the ONE you don't believe in. May be Hell is being absorbed into the physical world, recycled energy and saved; you are returned to the Creator whole and in tact. May be I should not speculate...
My Mom loved her child and her grief, in part, led to her death. I hope she pondered and may be accepted there is a Creator before she was taken. No matter what happened, I trust God knows best.
So fast forward, my sister, raised JINO ( Jewish in name only, we had no real faith in our home) is murdered. But just a few weeks before she started going to Church. I am relieved to this day.
I personally believe that if you do not believe you can not go to the ONE you don't believe in. May be Hell is being absorbed into the physical world, recycled energy and saved; you are returned to the Creator whole and in tact. May be I should not speculate...
My Mom loved her child and her grief, in part, led to her death. I hope she pondered and may be accepted there is a Creator before she was taken. No matter what happened, I trust God knows best.
Rainbow Mage
Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
I guess the Christian view is that God expects humans to live up to his righteous standards, even while knowing our weaknesses and failings, because his standards are perfect and irrevokable? They then say no one can live up to these standards, making all deserving of hell, and hence create a need for the core Christian dogma, the Atonement. They claim that one cannot be saved by works, since all fall short in the end. To me this isn't a good argument to accept Christianity because it assumes God does not know our human weaknesses and places an unfair burden on us.
Consider that there are other religions out there. If you believe in a higher power, realize that the Abrahamic religions are only a subset of religion (and fairly unpleasant and primitive ones at that, for the most part).
The people that argue that god is jealous, wrathful, and will send people to hell- would you really want to hang out with those people and their deity in heaven anyway, even if it existed? Their god and their religion are a reflection of their own personality and morality.
An alternative thought could be that God is imply showing us why we fail. So if he sends us a means to live and we ponder it and limit it and say we have a better way, then some can see by our failings how helpless we are. I really think God is most merciful and forgiving. I know how I feel about my own children ( that's what first led me to even think about God) I give them instruction and I know better than they do. Some of my kids will stay on task, some will go there own way and fail, some will go and come back. I will tell them about the "hell" they will encounter if they don't do the right thing , but all in all, if they tell me I'm cut off, I neither believe you nor want you or your advice, I wouldn't keep them from my house, they stayed away. And even if they came to me at the very last moment and said, I love you Mom, I'm sorry I rejected you... all would be good again. I love them.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
Ok, so why do you think your little sins are better than others (percieved) major sins? Predjudiced?
DavyCrocket2003
Well-Known Member
Hey. TJ. Think about this. Do you really believe that God is just? Do you really believe that God knows best? I believe this with all my heart. It seems that you believe this as well.
I don't know if you take Christ's teachings as being very authoritative or not. I do. He clearly teaches that it is not what we believe that matters. It is what we do with what we believe that counts! This is an incredibly important principle of mortal existence.
Case in point: Parable of the talents. Here in Matthew 25:14-30 Jesus teaches us a lot about the kingdom of God. In the parable of the talents, three servants are given a sum of money. One gets one. One gets two. And one gets five. The talents are left in their stewardship while the master goes on a long journey. When he gests back, he asks them what they have done with the money. The one with five worked hard and put the money to use. He leveraged what he had to obtain five more talents beside it. The man with two talents had done the same, he now had four talents having only started with two. The man who had been given one, had buried his single talent in the ground. He did absolutely nothing with what he had been given. Essentially, he wasted his opportunity. The master was proud of the two servants that obtained more, calling them "good and faithful." He told them that because they had been faithful over a few things, he would make them rulers over many things. The one who had buried his talent, received nothing.
Life is like that. No one starts life in the same place. Because of circumstances, there is an infinite variety in our different beliefs, traditions, and natural abilities. What kind of a test would it be if we were judged according to what we had been given to start out with? Not a just one that's for sure. God does not judge us on what amount of truth, light, or ability we are given. So what would a just judgement be? A judgement of whether we do our best with what we have, or simply bury it in the ground. This also means that it is invalid to compare straight across and say "Hey! Look at him! He only has two talents! Haha. I'm WAY better than him, because I have FOUR!" What this guy is missing is the fact that he started out with eight and the other guy started out with one. Who is the better servant?
It seems to be a sad trend among the religious to pat ourselves on the back for how good we are because we believe thus and so. Woe be unto them, for such are in the gall of bitterness, (to borrow some expressive scriptural language
) and unless they repent, they will find themselves condemned at the last day. Jesus tells a very powerful parable which makes this quite clear. It is directly following the parable of the talents. I don't really know a good name for it, but it's in Matthew 25:31-46. You know what, I'm just going to quote it below, I don't want to paraphrase, when the original is so much better.
Mathew 25:31-46 said:
Wow huh... There it is. Clear as crystal. Where is the debate about who had the correct doctrinal beliefs? Where was the discussion of whether the Trinity is fact or fiction? Maybe it was. Maybe some of the wicked protested saying, "But wait! I'm a good Christian! I've 'Been Saved.' I believe in Jesus Christ as my personal Savior!" Well... maybe being saved is more than a one time lip service...
Anyone reading this, I don't care what you believe. Think about it. Would it be just to punish or reward people according to the luck of the draw? NO! Life is not a game of poker. Anyone/thing that teaches that it is, is teaching something false.