Can the US afford socialized medicine?

[Magic Man]

Are you done cramming words into my mouth?

Which words did I cram in your mouth?

If you want to have a health care system where everyone enjoys the same service like other countries, America needs to have unemployment figures and tax participation like other countries.

That's true. That's why we need better regulations and a better market. The reason they have better unemployment and tax participation is because of their "socialist" governments.

The reason it works over there is because they are all in it together.

Over here, almost 50% of our citizens have a lousy education and no work ethic.

There are very few freeloaders in their system.

I was going to address this before, but I figured I'd wait until you had actually said it (so as not to cram words into your mouth ). Your problem is assuming that because almost 50% of our population doesn't pay taxes, they have a lousy education and no work ethic. That's simply untrue, and frankly a stupid assertion.

The reason those people don't pay federal taxes is because they don't meet the federal minimum income. So, raise their income and they'll pay taxes. Very simple. There are very few freeloaders in our system too.

You want the few to pay for the many, that is not copying other systems, that is having your cake and eat it too.

Not really. I'd rather we had better wealth distribution like those other countries (Norway, Denmark) you're talking about. Then the few wouldn't be paying so much more than everyone else. But if we want to keep the system we have where there is 20% of the population holding such a ridiculously large portion of the wealth, then the few are going to have to pay more than everyone else.

If we where to remove programs that promote freeloading, (5th generation welfare) I have a feeling these freeloaders would get off their butts and produce something other than more dependant children.

First, you need to show some programs that promote freeloading, and why you think they do that. Welfare doesn't promote freeloading. The problem is you're so worried about the .5% of the population that might be taking advantage of the system, that might cost us $1 billion a year. I'm worried about the 1.5% of the population that costs us hundreds of billions of dollars a year.

Developed countries like those you're pointing to have forms of welfare and unemployment benefits. The reason they don't have so many people using them is the great regulations they have in place to insure much more equal distribution of wealth. So, I'm all for modeling ourselves after Denmark in other ways to make you happier about having universal healthcare.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I'm glad you're on board for fair taxes.

I'm glad you would be for the fair tax. :clap

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer

 

[ninerbuff]

The US healthcare system is a FOR PROFIT venture. Let's face it, take profit away from any big company and they'll retaliate by compensating politicians to make laws to get the money back.

 

[Magic Man]

I'm glad you would be for the fair tax. :clap

Americans For Fair Taxation: Americans For Fair Taxation

That's why I was sure to say "fair taxes", not "the fair tax". I want actual fair taxes.

 

[dogsgod]

Apparently General Motors found that it was more profitable to hire workers in Canada because the workers had better and cheaper access to health care. As large corporations see the benefits of government health care over insurance middle men standing between a worker and their health care, things might change.

 

[Smoke]

I'm glad you would be for the fair tax. :clap

Americans For Fair Taxation: Americans For Fair Taxation

You can call it the One Holy Apostolic Tax if you want, but it won't make it so. The "Fair Tax" is fair like Pravda was the truth.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I'm not addressing who should or shouldn't pay taxes, only the effect of voters voting themselves ever more largess.

Sorry, are you arguing against universal health coverage, or are you arguing in favor of monarchy?

 

[Bismillah]

How would universal health care affect professionals in the Medical field? I am guessing that it would lower their salary and judging by the fact that doctors in America are the most highly paid than in any other country, this wouldn't be that big of an issue. But then again I listend to an NPR broadcast a while back of a doctor in Japan. He was struggling to pay for his two clinics and was in the red because of numerous malpractice cases that later found him clear of any wrong doing. Anyway what resonated with me was that he was purchasing two vending machines, though he already had one, and was trying to charge more in any way possible just to stay afloat. Do you think its ok that a professional who has dedicated a large chunk of his life to get where he is at now and under enormous debt has to struggle to meet ends meet like this?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

He had several ideas. Which do you find right?

I find Copernicus right (see post #480) that insurance companies deny or drop people, and I find jarofthoughts right to contrast his description of insurance in Norway with insurance in the U.S. (post #481). Specifically, jarofthoughts said:

I'm covered no matter what...

To which you replied:

Experience here with insurance might not be what you read in the media.

Actually, it probably is what he reads in the media. Americans are certainly not "covered no matter what". If you have a chronic condition and your employer does not offer health insurance, or you have a low-wage job and can't afford the premiums, you're screwed. If you have caps on your insurance plan and your medicine costs more than that cap, you're screwed. I know this for a fact. I've lived this.

The private insurance companies are not required to insure people on an individual basis, so they reject anyone with any moderate-serious health condition. That, and the enormous cost and inefficiency of private insurance, is why only ~5% of Americans have health insurance dealing directly with an insurance company (as of 2008). The rest have insurance through plans mediated by their employers, or public plans like Medicaid/Medicare. Because of strict limitations on the eligibility of people for Medicaid/Medicare, the remaining 17% of the non-elderly have no insurance. Consider the following fact:

"For example, a parent in a family of three working full-time at the minimum wage could not qualify for Medicaid in 29 states in 2007.44"
- Kaiser Family Foundation study on the uninsured, 2008
​

If you are that parent, your employer does not offer group health insurance or the premiums are too expensive, you're screwed. Very different from Norway, wouldn't you agree?

Furthermore:

"Lack of health insurance causes roughly 18,000 unnecessary deaths every year in the United States. Although America leads the world in spending on health care, it is the only wealthy, industrialized nation that does not ensure that all citizens have coverage."
- The U.S. National Academies of Science, Institute of Medicine, 2004
​

Again, quite different from Norway where jarofthoughts is "covered no matter what".

 

[Copernicus]

I should add that I have had some very good health care under my company-provided insurance, but that has deteriorated rapidly over the past several years as my employer has followed the general trend to shed health care costs by transferring the burden of payment to employees. I find myself in disputes with my doctors over payments, because doctors cannot keep track of all the payment gotchas, and they wrestle with insurers to extract maximum profits for their own businesses. In one case, my wife had been receiving medicine regularly, but was suddenly told that it wasn't covered. Lots of everyone's time was wasted while we spent endless hours with insurance and health care providers to try to sort out the details.

When I was given a prescription by my doctor for some medicine recently, the insurance company said that they did not know whether they would cover it. The representative on the phone could not understand the language that defined coverage, nor could my doctor. We were advised to pay the bills, and the insurance company would tell us later whether they would reimburse the expenses. These kinds of shenanigans are fairly common experiences for those who have even good employee-sponsored health plans. The American health care system has been thoroughly broken by bone-headed, stubborn adherence to the idea that the "free market" should regulate it with minimal government oversight. It is a madhouse of competing special interests.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

My wife's health insurance plan said, in writing, there was a deductible for prescriptions and a maximum out of pocket of $0. What they actually meant to say, was there is no maximum out of pocket. There's a big difference between $0 out of pocket max and no out of pocket max, but most employees choosing this plan probably didn't call the insurer to clarify, like we did, they probably won't find out until they need it. Oops.

My employer had a health insurance plan which listed "maximum $3000 for prescriptions" under "benefits". The other benefits were things like "co-pay $80", etc. This lead me to believe that I would have to pay a maximum of $3,000 for prescriptions, just like I would have to pay the $80 co-pay and the other "benefits". Actually, the $3,000 maximum "benefit" was the max the PLAN would pay for prescriptions. Very misleading. Furthermore, the plan said there was a maximum out of pocket of $3,000. But, actually, your max out of pocket is not $3,000 if your prescriptions exceed the prescription max of $3,000. So, there isn't really a hard-and-fast out of pocket maximum, it depends. Oops.

The company in charge of my university's insurance, Aetna, has had a medical cost ratio of ~43% for three years. That means only 43% of the premiums we pay to Aetna goes to cover the medical costs of students on the plan. The rest goes to cover Aetna's administrative costs, and profits. This is an outrageous number, any reasonable plan should be ~85%. The Aetna reps actually tried to make this seem like a good thing at a meeting (it is a good thing -- for Aetna).

So Aetna is sitting pretty while the students are paying, in addition to premiums, the co-pays, deductibles, and the cost of any medical procedure or medication the plan doesn't cover. And in spite of paying all this, we don't really get a "safety net" in return, if you get cancer or have a premature child, the plan won't pay more than the caps and maximums. At least one student dropped out because the plan wouldn't cover needed medication. I know for a fact that ~7 students are meeting the prescription maximum. We don't know what they pay out of their pocket beyond that. For all we know they could be paying thousands out of their $25,000/year salary.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I swear, I think the insurance companies use confusing language on purpose. To explain an insurance policy, all we need are two columns. One column is "This is what YOU pay". Another column is "This is what the Plan pays".

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Oh yeah, and Aetna wouldn't tell me if their plan covered my medication until AFTER I paid and joined the plan. That would be like a car salesman saying they won't tell you about the engine under the hood until after you buy the car.

 

[Reverend Rick]

That's messed up Spinks.

 

[Copernicus]

A lot of the confusing language is dictated by lawyers, who sometimes take very aggressive positions on how to protect their clients from liability. But it is also common for people to try to soften or obscure information that they think will cause a negative reaction. Nobody ever directly announces that benefits are being lessened or removed, but they do it all that time and act as if that was the policy all along or a change for the better. "Now you only pay 50% of the fee!" (But last year, you had full coverage.)

 

[DallasApple]

Im curious what is the "adult mortality rate" where we get the top billing?Like 109 per thousand die after "adulthood" versus the other places?

My GRANDMOTHER is beating those odds man..She will be 98 in Novemember..

Also just to be fair(even though Im ******) do those statistics factor in like driving fast cars and unhealthy eating practices???Like how sedentary we are on average compared to the other countries?And stress levels like how many hours we work on average to time off versus the other countries???

How do those things factor???

Love

Dallas