Why are majority of Arabs, Anti-america

[TashaN]

It's all about mutual hatred of the Jews/Israel isn't it?

I don't understand! What on earth are you talking about?

I just showed you some ways to save your country's money. Isn't that what you were asking for?

 

[TashaN]

the overwhelmin fact the Obama has to deal with when considering Americas relationship with the Arab states is the right of Israel to exist.

What is the point of considering any long term peace talks with Arab states and Israel if the Arab states are not prepared to recognise Israels right to exist. its the underlying factor in the on going war since the formation of Israel.

How can you possibly see any improvement in US Arab relations when Arab states support and maintain the view that Israel shouldnt be there at all and that "Palestine means Palestine in its entirety - from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River, from Ras Al-Naqura to Rafah.

Kai, you are much way better than that. You should know by now about this ...

Arab Peace Initiative - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You really give the impression that you are nothing but a propaganda tool as i said before somewhere else.

 

[Elessar]

I've been seeing talk in this about the Ummah and its unity against the west - and, I'd like to, at least from my own experience, talk about how it really doesn't work. Personally, I have never heard more bigotry against Arabs than I have heard from fellow Muslims.

I believe I've described a friend on here, who I called "Aliyah" (not her real name). She is of Pakistani origin, and is a Sunni Muslim. However, I've honestly see her identify more closely with Indian Hindus than with Muslims from other parts of the world. She is, to be perfectly frank, racist - against Arabs. She has used the slur, "ragheads", and speaks of Arabs as a "bunch of f---ing tent-dwellers who can't get their heads out of the Middle Ages."

She also has said, "Shi'ites are worse than Jews or Christians...no offense...", "Elijah Mohammad was a f---ing fraud" and "Nationists [of Islam] are a bunch of psuedo-Muslim heretics." She got very well with most of her fellow Sunni non-Arab Muslims, but Shi'ites and Arabs were not among her friends. She had Hindu, atheist, Jewish and Christian friends, white European, African American, South Asian, and East Asian friends - but no Arabs, and no Shi'ites.

EDIT: And "Aliyah" is not an isolated example.

 

[kai]

Kai, you are much way better than that. You should know by now about this ...

Arab Peace Initiative - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You really give the impression that you are nothing but a propaganda tool as i said before somewhere else.

On first impressions it seems a brilliant initiative , But on closer inspection there are problems.

The Arab states expect that Israel will first undertake to withdraw from all territories in separate agreements with Syria, Lebanon and the Palestinians, and without any formal commitment from the Arab states, and that after the withdrawal, the matter of peace with Israel will be considered, with each Arab state free to make its own decision about peace. Even if agreement is reached with the Lebanase, Syrians and Palestinians, there would be no guarantee that any other Arab states would agree to peace after Israeli withdrawal.


and Hamas doesnt agree with it and niether does Hezbollah or Israel ,it seems averyone likes it except the parties directly concerned.



smoke and mirrors my friend, smoke and mirrors, it looks like an ultimatum really

 

[Sahar]

I've been seeing talk in this about the Ummah and its unity against the west - and, I'd like to, at least from my own experience, talk about how it really doesn't work. Personally, I have never heard more bigotry against Arabs than I have heard from fellow Muslims.

I believe I've described a friend on here, who I called "Aliyah" (not her real name). She is of Pakistani origin, and is a Sunni Muslim. However, I've honestly see her identify more closely with Indian Hindus than with Muslims from other parts of the world. She is, to be perfectly frank, racist - against Arabs. She has used the slur, "ragheads", and speaks of Arabs as a "bunch of f---ing tent-dwellers who can't get their heads out of the Middle Ages."

She also has said, "Shi'ites are worse than Jews or Christians...no offense...", "Elijah Mohammad was a f---ing fraud" and "Nationists [of Islam] are a bunch of psuedo-Muslim heretics." She got very well with most of her fellow Sunni non-Arab Muslims, but Shi'ites and Arabs were not among her friends. She had Hindu, atheist, Jewish and Christian friends, white European, African American, South Asian, and East Asian friends - but no Arabs, and no Shi'ites.

EDIT: And "Aliyah" is not an isolated example.

You yourself called her a racist. She is a bad representative of her people and her religion.
During the brutal attacks on Gaza (and after it), we saw the demonstrations across the Muslim world supporting the people of Gaza and the resistance and condemning the attack.

 

[Elessar]

You yourself called her a racist. She is a bad representative of her people and her religion.
During the brutal attacks on Gaza (and after it), we saw the demonstrations across the Muslim world supporting the people of Gaza and the resistance and condemning the attack.

And she also protested the attacks on Gaza in demonstrations. She is still a Muslim, and still supports the Palestinians' right (in her mind) to a homeland. But, what I am saying is, that to claim that there is one, single "Ummah" which thinks of one another first and others second, is really misleading. Sure, and there's supposedly a "Christendom" as well. But there is no real unity - there are ethnic rivalries and conflicts within, there is racism, there is bigotry, there is hatred in between parts of the Ummah.

"Aliyah" was not the only example of this - Pakistanis, in general, that I knew, tended to be racist against Arabs. Iranians, too, tended to be racist against Arabs. Arabs themselves tended also to be racist against Africans, even Muslims (Sunni and Shi'ite, not even talking about NoI right now). And then, of course, within the "races", as it were, the fights (not fisticuffs, but you know what I mean) between Sunni and Shi'ite, between the two of those against NoIs. Indonesian Muslims, actually, in my experience, tended to be the most, well, Muslim-like - that is, like the "ideal" Muslim who saw all Islam as a single people. Then again, the only Indonesian I really knew well was an apostate from Islam. Maybe if I'd had more Indonesian friends, and Muslim ones, I would have seen more of their flaws.

Of course, they were not the only ones. African American and European Christians tended to be racist toward one another. So on, so on, ditto, ditto, etc., etc. My point is, the Ummah is not quite as united as, theoretically, it should be. Of course, at my school, we were especially diverse, and even all these "racism" I'm throwing around, was rather light - we still all got along; I can only remember one actual physical fight in my four years of high school, and I don't remember any profiling or direct, pointed racism occurring - I am only reporting of what I saw in subconscious moves, in the normal associations of people, and so on.

 

[Sahar]

And she also protested the attacks on Gaza in demonstrations. She is still a Muslim, and still supports the Palestinians' right (in her mind) to a homeland. But, what I am saying is, that to claim that there is one, single "Ummah" which thinks of one another first and others second, is really misleading. Sure, and there's supposedly a "Christendom" as well. But there is no real unity - there are ethnic rivalries and conflicts within, there is racism, there is bigotry, there is hatred in between parts of the Ummah.

"Aliyah" was not the only example of this - Pakistanis, in general, that I knew, tended to be racist against Arabs. Iranians, too, tended to be racist against Arabs. Arabs themselves tended also to be racist against Africans, even Muslims (Sunni and Shi'ite, not even talking about NoI right now). And then, of course, within the "races", as it were, the fights (not fisticuffs, but you know what I mean) between Sunni and Shi'ite, between the two of those against NoIs. Indonesian Muslims, actually, in my experience, tended to be the most, well, Muslim-like - that is, like the "ideal" Muslim who saw all Islam as a single people. Then again, the only Indonesian I really knew well was an apostate from Islam. Maybe if I'd had more Indonesian friends, and Muslim ones, I would have seen more of their flaws.

Of course, they were not the only ones. African American and European Christians tended to be racist toward one another. So on, so on, ditto, ditto, etc., etc. My point is, the Ummah is not quite as united as, theoretically, it should be. Of course, at my school, we were especially diverse, and even all these "racism" I'm throwing around, was rather light - we still all got along; I can only remember one actual physical fight in my four years of high school, and I don't remember any profiling or direct, pointed racism occurring - I am only reporting of what I saw in subconscious moves, in the normal associations of people, and so on.

Generally I don't disagree but there is much generalization.

My point is, the Ummah is not quite as united as, theoretically, it should be.

I fully agree. But the unity of the Ummah is not only theoretical but the Ummah was indeed united under one political leadership for hundreds of years. Muslims now are at their weakest stage and divided because they abandoned the teachings of their religion. And I believe you know that Islam strongly rejects racism, in many hadiths the prophet established the reality of no Arab is superior to a non-Arab...etc.and equality of all people from the different races.
The unity of the Islamic world is something we seek. This unity includes political, economic and military one. But I think there is a minimal feeling of belonging to one Islamic nation.

There is a thread about this issue FVM started in Islam Forum:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam/57816-racism-our-ranks.html

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I don't think that what not4me was referring to. It's not about friendship. No one can choose whom to love or whom to be friend with. It's true that you are forced to have *certain siblings* but no body can impose on you *certain friendships*.

Now here i don't say that we are forced to love other Muslims, but all what i'm saying is that not4me post doesn't refer to friendship or brotherhood in humanity. She might be talking about brotherhood in Islam from a dogmatic point of view and within the context of defense in the case of attacks from others. I'm required to aid and support my fellow Muslims when they are under attack and even when they attack others. Wait, don't be shocked, let me go on.

Prophet Mohammed said "in the meaning of the hadith": Aid your brother "Muslim" whether he is prejudicing others or being prejudicing against. Someone asked prophet Mohammed, O Prophet of Allah, we do understand how we would aid our brothers and sisters when they are being attacked or being prejudiced against, but how can we support them when they are the aggressors? Prophet Mohammed "peace be upon him" answered, by preventing him from doing the aggression, you are helping him and aiding him. I don't know how you think of such a statement, but i personally believe one of the most wise and birilliant statements i have ever read which comes in a very simple, but yet so powerful to the mind of simple people at that time in Arabia, and becomes an example to the generations to come. He knew the psychology of some simple people and their emotions, and he showed them how to *aid* their fellows when they do mistakes, by *preventing* them from doing it. You see, we see it as a duty to apply this general ruling, but i'm of course aware that many Muslims forget about the second part in the Prophet statement when they are under a great preasure and in unbearable psychological condition.

That's the concept of brotherhood in Islam. We don't clap for Muslims when they are the aggressors but in the name of brotherhood we go against them and we prevent them from doing these things. Kai know this but he purposely tried to misled not4me so others would interpret her statement as if she were supporting evil Muslims as well in what they do. I hope that you won't fall for some unexplained de facto slogans by Muslims because they mean more than what they appear to be.

Friendship and brotherhood are mutual, my friend, and i really respect and appreciate them.

I hope you got now the more comprehensive meaning of what brotherhood in Islam mean.

TashaN thank you for that very interesting and enlightening explanation. What a beautiful lesson. And very cleverly revealed, too!

I wonder if the lesson you cited is one case of a general principle: "help your friends/community". Now, 1,300 years ago, this would have been the same as saying (to a Muslim audience) "help your fellow Muslims" for all practical purposes. Practicality is what it's all about: ideally we want to help everyone, but in practice we are in a better position to help our communities, because we understand them, etc. So I think it's compatible with the Prophet's teaching to say, in general, "help your community", including your family, friends, co-workers, countrymen, neighbors....of course this includes your religious community. In today's world it just happens that Muslims and non-Muslims often form close communities.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Eric (right?), what I said was in response to kai's post and was about my definition of my identity. What defines my community? What's the boundary of my community in which we share together a common identity? Is what bonds me to the Palestinian person being Arab or being Muslim? It's being Muslim. And as you have seen the later posts went to Arab nationalism vs Islam/Islamism.

Of course we are all brothers in humanity and what happens thousands of kilometers away to anyone in any part of the world concerns me, this does not need much talk, it's beyond question. If I have seen a human being (Muslim or non-Muslim) is subjected to tyranny and I am able to remove this tyranny, it's my duty to do so Islamically speaking.

I believe Tashan's reply is sufficient. Friendship wasn't the subject. Most Muslims here are very open. It's my pleasure and my honor to have you as a friend.

Hey, I thought we are already friends, aren't we?

I thought so too! And so we are. I sort of misunderstood you--sorry. If I ever go out for a stroll and happen to find myself near Egypt, I will be sure to give you a call (probably to ask for directions).

 

[darkendless]

I don't understand! What on earth are you talking about?

I just showed you some ways to save your country's money. Isn't that what you were asking for?

They could also stop rebuilding the two countries they're fighting and stop giving aid to Gaza? Save a bit of money there too.

 

[TashaN]

And she also protested the attacks on Gaza in demonstrations. She is still a Muslim, and still supports the Palestinians' right (in her mind) to a homeland. But, what I am saying is, that to claim that there is one, single "Ummah" which thinks of one another first and others second, is really misleading. Sure, and there's supposedly a "Christendom" as well. But there is no real unity - there are ethnic rivalries and conflicts within, there is racism, there is bigotry, there is hatred in between parts of the Ummah.

"Aliyah" was not the only example of this - Pakistanis, in general, that I knew, tended to be racist against Arabs. Iranians, too, tended to be racist against Arabs. Arabs themselves tended also to be racist against Africans, even Muslims (Sunni and Shi'ite, not even talking about NoI right now). And then, of course, within the "races", as it were, the fights (not fisticuffs, but you know what I mean) between Sunni and Shi'ite, between the two of those against NoIs. Indonesian Muslims, actually, in my experience, tended to be the most, well, Muslim-like - that is, like the "ideal" Muslim who saw all Islam as a single people. Then again, the only Indonesian I really knew well was an apostate from Islam. Maybe if I'd had more Indonesian friends, and Muslim ones, I would have seen more of their flaws.

Of course, they were not the only ones. African American and European Christians tended to be racist toward one another. So on, so on, ditto, ditto, etc., etc. My point is, the Ummah is not quite as united as, theoretically, it should be. Of course, at my school, we were especially diverse, and even all these "racism" I'm throwing around, was rather light - we still all got along; I can only remember one actual physical fight in my four years of high school, and I don't remember any profiling or direct, pointed racism occurring - I am only reporting of what I saw in subconscious moves, in the normal associations of people, and so on.

The Ummah was actually united as not4me said, but that doesn't mean there was no racism or differences. The concept of Ummah doesn't mean that ALL Muslims have to be united in the way one might imagine today, but it means to have a sense of responsibility and a specific set of priorities which should eliminate any sort of hatred, racism or differences between the brothers and sisters. Islam encourage it but that doesn't mean it still exist today or that ALL Muslims will be able to do so. It's just about *trying* to forget our differences and focus on the pure message of Islam which enforce respect, love and brotherhood. This is all what Prophet Mohammed was preaching in Arabia when people were fighting for very stupid reasons, enslave each other, and who were sinking in the darkness of bad tribal practices.

TashaN thank you for that very interesting and enlightening explanation. What a beautiful lesson. And very cleverly revealed, too!

I wonder if the lesson you cited is one case of a general principle: "help your friends/community". Now, 1,300 years ago, this would have been the same as saying (to a Muslim audience) "help your fellow Muslims" for all practical purposes. Practicality is what it's all about: ideally we want to help everyone, but in practice we are in a better position to help our communities, because we understand them, etc. So I think it's compatible with the Prophet's teaching to say, in general, "help your community", including your family, friends, co-workers, countrymen, neighbors....of course this includes your religious community. In today's world it just happens that Muslims and non-Muslims often form close communities.

Ineed.

Of course, if everybody helped his friend, then evantually we will see the community as a whole helping each other in a very efficient and systemic manner.

 

[TashaN]

They could also stop rebuilding the two countries they're fighting and stop giving aid to Gaza? Save a bit of money there too.

The US is not giving anything out to Gaza, my friend. By the way, no body asked the US to invade these two countries and no body asked them re-build it. By the way, the US got their lessons well from before. If they didn't help out to re-build the countries they directly or indirectly caused to sink in destruction, they will hunt them down like ghosts wherever they go once they leave their lands. So, you can say that the US is doing it for their own good buddy.

By the way, have you watched Charlie Wilson's War? I noticed that it gives out some hints about this issue.

 

[kai]

The US is not giving anything out to Gaza, my friend. By the way, no body asked the US to invade these two countries and no body asked them re-build it. By the way, the US got their lessons well from before. If they didn't help out to re-build the countries they directly or indirectly caused to sink in destruction, they will hunt them down like ghosts wherever they go once they leave their lands. So, you can say that the US is doing it for their own good buddy.

By the way, have you watched Charlie Wilson's War? I noticed that it gives out some hints about this issue.

The United States is the leading provider of bilateral economic and development assistance to the Palestinians, having programmed an estimated $2.2 billion through USAID since 1993. Funding has supported programs in the areas of water and sanitation, infrastructure, education, health, economic growth, and democracy. The United States also is committed to continuing assistance for basic human needs in both the West Bank and Gaza, including emergency food, health care, and access to safe water. In Gaza, much of this is accomplished through the United Nations Relief and Works Agency and local and international nongovernmental organizations (NGOs).
USAID WEST BANK & GAZA - ABOUT US


U.S. Government Provides Humanitarian Aid to Gaza

USAID Press Release: U.S. Government Provides Humanitarian Aid to Gaza

 

[darkendless]

The US is not giving anything out to Gaza, my friend. By the way, no body asked the US to invade these two countries and no body asked them re-build it. By the way, the US got their lessons well from before. If they didn't help out to re-build the countries they directly or indirectly caused to sink in destruction, they will hunt them down like ghosts wherever they go once they leave their lands. So, you can say that the US is doing it for their own good buddy.

By the way, have you watched Charlie Wilson's War? I noticed that it gives out some hints about this issue.

Read Kai's post sir, you're in for some education. Suprising the US bothers considering how much hate they attract (even from this site) for supporting Israel.

Afghanistan was already a mess, as was Iraq. Apparently from what i've heard, you have to be a bad muslim if you do not support the Taleban, so i understand somewhat your position.

 

[TashaN]

The United States is the leading provider of bilateral economic and development assistance to the Palestinians, having programmed an estimated $2.2 billion through USAID since 1993. Funding has supported programs in the areas of water and sanitation, infrastructure, education, health, economic growth, and democracy. The United States also is committed to continuing assistance for basic human needs in both the West Bank and Gaza, including emergency food, health care, and access to safe water. In Gaza, much of this is accomplished through the United Nations Relief and Works Agency and local and international nongovernmental organizations (NGOs).
USAID WEST BANK & GAZA - ABOUT US


U.S. Government Provides Humanitarian Aid to Gaza

USAID Press Release: U.S. Government Provides Humanitarian Aid to Gaza

Maybe i wasn't clear earlier. I meant re-building Gaza, not just by giving food and shelter.

The US and EU said they won't help re-build Gaza if Hamas was still controlling it. The more they deny Hamas it's rights as a legitimate party, the more they feel so desperate to use all possible means to prove their right, and the more people will sympathize with their cause. If the US and the West in general have supported Hamas when it was elected, their own people--Palestinians--would have rejected them-Hamas--when they fail to maintain dignity, peace and prosperity to the Palestinians.

 

[TashaN]

Read Kai's post sir, you're in for some education. Suprising the US bothers considering how much hate they attract (even from this site) for supporting Israel.

Read my reply, sir.

Afghanistan was already a mess, as was Iraq.

Pathetic excuse.

Apparently from what i've heard, you have to be a bad muslim if you do not support the Taleban, so i understand somewhat your position.

Ha ha. Come on man, you don't need to play these types of childish games with me. We are all (most of us?) adults here.

 

[darkendless]

Read my reply, sir.

Pathetic excuse.

Ha ha. Come on man, you don't need to play these types of childish games with me. We are all (most of us?) adults here.

Why should the US pay to rebuild it? Reread Kai's post, part of the $2.2billion was spent on infrastructure. $2.2 billion is a lot more than the Palestinians could ever have hoped for. Given their hatred and condemnation of the west, im suprised our governments give them anything at all.

I don't see many reasons for the US to back down with their demands. Hamas is a problem. You cant tell me you havn't seen their insane propoganda videos promising revenge and the destruction of Israel.

Childish? Replace Hamas with Taleban and all thats changed is the name.

 

[TashaN]

Why should the US pay to rebuild it? Reread Kai's post, part of the $2.2billion was spent on infrastructure. $2.2 billion is a lot more than the Palestinians could ever have hoped for. Given their hatred and condemnation of the west, im suprised our governments give them anything at all.

I'm glad they have changed their mind, if they really did.

I don't see many reasons for the US to back down with their demands. Hamas is a problem. You cant tell me you havn't seen their insane propoganda videos promising revenge and the destruction of Israel.

Believe me, if they gave them a chance, and failed miserably, Palestinians themselves would have kicked them out of office. You still don't get it, dah.

Childish? Replace Hamas with Taleban and all thats changed is the name.

Believe me, it doesn't matter whether you equate Hamas with Taliban or even the devil. I'm just talking about facts. I don't trust neither Fateh nor Hamas. They both need to grow up, but also that doesn't mean the West didn't play a fatal role in this whole mess.

I think the West need either to support this case in a positive way or never intervene at all in the slightest bit.

 

[darkendless]

I'm glad they have changed their mind, if they really did.


Believe me, if they gave them a chance, and failed miserably, Palestinians themselves would have kicked them out of office. You still don't get it, dah.


Believe me, it doesn't matter whether you equate Hamas with Taliban or even the devil. I'm just talking about facts. I don't trust neither Fateh nor Hamas. They both need to grow up, but also that doesn't mean the West didn't play a fatal role in this whole mess.

I remeber back in the day when Hamas was considered a change for good. Sadly they have no delivered. You're making an assumption there. Would a Bush supported government have been unacceptable for the Palestinians? How sad. Thats overly childish.

 

[TashaN]

I remeber back in the day when Hamas was considered a change for good. Sadly they have no delivered. You're making an assumption there. Would a Bush supported government have been unacceptable for the Palestinians? How sad. Thats overly childish.

Your posts are definitely getting low in quality with days. :cover: