• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Errors in the theory of evolution

rojse

RF Addict
evolution (not the theory) has no prove and therefor it is NOT a fact. We have yet to observe a species evolve! this is as far as i know.

And you have not looked hard at all.

After two minutes of searching, I have found this:
Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab - evolution - 09 June 2008 - New Scientist

To sum up the article, researchers have been letting colonies of escherichia coli (e. coli to laymen like myself) derived from a single colony breed for forty-thousand generations. In the thirty-thousandth generation, the e. coli colonies gained the ability to metabolise citrate, and the inability to do this is one of the defining characteristics of e. coli.

Because the team had frozen samples from every 500th generation, they could repeat the process of cultivating e. coli, and see if the ability to digest citrates would occur again. Cultivating e. coli bred after approximately the 20,000th generation would repeat this mutation, although cultivating e. coli before the 20,000th generation would not. Therefore, some mutation occured at approximately the 20,000th generation that would lead to the e. coli being able to digest citrates.

Now, the ability to digest citrates is a major evolutionary "jump" for the bacteria, and might be compared in a rough manner to a parrot evolving the ability to digest meat.
 
Last edited:

Yerda

Veteran Member
evolution (not the theory) has no prove and therefor it is NOT a fact. We have yet to observe a species evolve! this is as far as i know.
OK, but your knowledge is not exhaustive. We observe evolving populations everywhere we look - from microbes to man.

I highly recommend that you pick up a textbook on the matter. If that doesn't appeal try sifting through a bioscience journal, there are articles on evolution to be found regularly. Again if that's not to your liking there is wikipedia, and the always informative talk.origins website. It wouldn't hurt to gain a better grasp of the subject before disputing its nature.

All the best.
 

Luminous

non-existential luminary
And you have not looked hard at all.

After two minutes of searching, I have found this:
Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab - evolution - 09 June 2008 - New Scientist

To sum up the article, researchers have been letting colonies of escherichia coli (e. coli to laymen like myself) derived from a single colony breed for forty-thousand generations. In the thirty-thousandth generation, the e. coli colonies gained the ability to metabolise citrate, and the inability to do this is one of the defining characteristics of e. coli.

Because the team had frozen samples from every 500th generation, they could repeat the process of cultivating e. coli, and see if the ability to digest citrates would occur again. Cultivating e. coli bred after approximately the 20,000th generation would repeat this mutation, although cultivating e. coli before the 20,000th generation would not. Therefore, some mutation occured at approximately the 20,000th generation that would lead to the e. coli being able to digest citrates.

Now, the ability to digest citrates is a major evolutionary "jump" for the bacteria, and might be compared in a rough manner to a parrot evolving the ability to digest meat.
to me this is simply evidence of mutation, which is support for evolution but not evidence of evolution persay.
real evolution has to happen with sexually reproducing organisms. when a group of offspring can reproduce with each other but not with their anscestors, that is evolution. If this had been observed somewhere public then only liberal christianity would remain as credible(oh wait, even then conserves could charge that human is not an evolutionable species; that evolution only applies to animals...evolution would have to be observed in the human species). my thought remains, evolution is not a fact, it is the most credible theory.
 

Luminous

non-existential luminary
biologists consider it a fact, because there is logic and support for it and no evidence against it. mutations can be observed in some organisms but i do not believe species differentiation[my def. of evolution](especialy in sexuals) is yet to be observed.
just read the third...sorry. still speciation has to be observed proven in humans to deny creation by God better. the observations have to be done scientifically with prove and reproductivity to be deemed credible prove of a hypothesis of sexual species differentiation.not just inferred from logical possibility.
 
Last edited:

Luminous

non-existential luminary
OK, but your knowledge is not exhaustive. We observe evolving populations everywhere we look - from microbes to man.

I highly recommend that you pick up a textbook on the matter. If that doesn't appeal try sifting through a bioscience journal, there are articles on evolution to be found regularly. Again if that's not to your liking there is wikipedia, and the always informative talk.origins website. It wouldn't hurt to gain a better grasp of the subject before disputing its nature.

All the best.

IHNIWYTA... if scientists observed evolving populations everywhere they look then why isn't looking at people prove of evolution? because its all infered. I'm pretty sure its very hard to observe a complete cycle of species differentiation with just one look. "evolving populations" are not evolving populations as much as they are mutating [individuals within] populations.
Maybe YOU should pic up a good dictionary that has the difference between evolution and mutation as thought to me in by A.P. Biology class.
 
Last edited:

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
still speciation has to be observed proven in humans to deny creation by God better. the observations have to be done scientifically with prove and reproductivity to be deemed credible prove of a hypothesis of sexual species differentiation.not just inferred from logical possibility.

There is no way to conclusively deny creation by God; it is always possible that he created life through the phenomena that science studies.

Observing evolution in humans, however, is quite tricky. It takes quite a few generations for a species to fully diferentiate from its parent species; mutations are fairly rare; and, quite obviously, it takes several (human) lifetimes to observe several generations of humans... :)

It would in theory be possible to induce a greater incidence of mutations and perhaps smaller time gaps between generations, but that only helps to a degree AND the ethical issues involved are quite troubling.

And I am sure you have realized already that even when such evidence is documented (it will eventually) there will be those willing to believe that just because it can happen it does not mean that it originally happened that way.
 

rojse

RF Addict
to me this is simply evidence of mutation, which is support for evolution but not evidence of evolution persay.
real evolution has to happen with sexually reproducing organisms. when a group of offspring can reproduce with each other but not with their anscestors, that is evolution.

That's not the definition of evolution at all.

From Wiki:
In biology, evolution refers to changes in the inherited traits of a population of organisms from one generation to the next.

It is these inherited traits that make some members of one species have more likelihood of surviving and reproducing than it's counterparts who do not have the trait. A member that has one inherited trait will still be able to reproduce with a member without an inherited trait, but over time, more of the population with the inherited trait will be breeding than the population that does not.

What I have given you is an excellent example of evolution. One of the defining characteristics of e. coli is that it cannot digest citrates. The parents could not digest citrates, while the offspring could. Hence, there has been a fundamental change in the e. coli colony, and this is one of many examples of evolution at work.

If this had been observed somewhere public then only liberal christianity would remain as credible

Evolution and Christianity (and any other religion, for that matter) are not opposed. Many people choose to interpret the Bible as a metaphor. In fact, many people accept that scientific ideas are not opposed to Christianity, although we might argue about the morality of some areas of scientific research.

(oh wait, even then conserves could charge that human is not an evolutionable species; that evolution only applies to animals...evolution would have to be observed in the human species).

This is the only thing of interest in your whole post, although it is not interesting in the way you intend to.

There is quite a big debate as to whether people are evolving or not. Those who say that the evolutionary process is slowing down, or occuring at a negligable rate point out lowering death rates, a rise in medicines that allow people with genetic diseases to live long enough to have children, and so forth, as evidence that humans are somewhat buffered from the evolutionary process.

Obviously, any discussion about whether humans are evolving or not brings rise to people trying to present pseudoscientic support for racist views, or discussions about being over-taken by ethnicities who have more children than average and so forth. I don't want to go into this here because I don't want to derail the thread.

my thought remains, evolution is not a fact, it is the most credible theory.

If this is so, why are you so against evolution as a theory then? I don't think it is a fact, because it can be disproven, but it is the only way that so many biological observations can be explained adequately, and there are no alternatives that are nearly as good. And even if we had proof against evolution, we would need to come up with a theory that would explain why evolution was so successful in making the many predictions that it has.
 

Women_Of_Reason

Mystery Lover
to me this is simply evidence of mutation, which is support for evolution but not evidence of evolution persay.
real evolution has to happen with sexually reproducing organisms. when a group of offspring can reproduce with each other but not with their anscestors, that is evolution. If this had been observed somewhere public then only liberal christianity would remain as credible(oh wait, even then conserves could charge that human is not an evolutionable species; that evolution only applies to animals...evolution would have to be observed in the human species). my thought remains, evolution is not a fact, it is the most credible theory.

Evolution is what it is... It is not what you want it to be.

If you want to redefine evolution so it fits your bogus definition of it, then no... Evolution does not work.

Have a taste of your own arguments:

I don`t believe in airplanes because what you are talking about is not an airplane... Airplanes are big balloons that can teleport and spit fire. So airplanes are no fact. Only a theory.
 
Last edited:

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
evolution (not the theory) has no prove and therefor it is NOT a fact. We have yet to observe a species evolve! this is as far as i know.
Thank you. Perfect example of the kind of ignorance Luis was talking about. Speciation has been observed, both in the lab and the field.
Speciation is the evolutionary process by which new biological species arise. There are four modes of natural speciation, based on the extent to which speciating populations are geographically isolated from one another: allopatric, peripatric, parapatric, and sympatric. Speciation may also be induced artificially, through animal husbandry or laboratory experiments. Observed examples of each kind of speciation are provided throughout.
wiki
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
IHNIWYTA... if scientists observed evolving populations everywhere they look then why isn't looking at people prove of evolution? because its all infered. I'm pretty sure its very hard to observe a complete cycle of species differentiation with just one look. "evolving populations" are not evolving populations as much as they are mutating populations.
Maybe YOU should pic up a good dictionary that has the difference between evolution and mutation as thought to me in by A.P. Biology class.

You need to be clear about what you're asserting. Speciation, including of sexually reproducing organisms, has been observed repeatedly. I recommend reading this:

http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php/Observed_speciation
this:
Observed Instances of Speciation
and here are some books that describe speciation in action:

The Cichlid Fishes: Nature's Grand Experiment in Evolution by George W. Barlow

Systematics and the Origin of Species by Ernst Mayr

The Evolution Explosion by Stephen R. Palumbi

Frogs, Flies and Dandelions by Menno Schilthuizen

The Beak of the Finch : Evolution in Our Time by Jonathan Weiner

The Diversity of Life by Edward O. Wilson .
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
evolution (not the theory) has no prove and therefor it is NOT a fact. We have yet to observe a species evolve! this is as far as i know.

Gravity, germs causing disease, Sun-centered solar system, atomic theory, Relativity -- No proof, but all, still, both theories and FACTS. Proof only exists in mathematics.

You do not have to prove something for it to be a fact. You merely have to introduce such enough evidence that to doubt it would be overwhelmingly obtuse.
 

Women_Of_Reason

Mystery Lover
Facts are not that big of a deal anyways. Get over it.

Fact are just data. For example: If I let go of an apple it will fall to the ground. That`s a fact. But what does it tell us?

Nothing!

You need a theory in order to understand that fact.

Evolution is a fact (again, get over it...) and the theory of evolution by natural selection helps us understand some of the mechanisms of evolution.
 

Luminous

non-existential luminary
There is no way to conclusively deny creation by God; it is always possible that he created life through the phenomena that science studies.

Observing evolution in humans, however, is quite tricky. It takes quite a few generations for a species to fully diferentiate from its parent species; mutations are fairly rare; and, quite obviously, it takes several (human) lifetimes to observe several generations of humans... :)

It would in theory be possible to induce a greater incidence of mutations and perhaps smaller time gaps between generations, but that only helps to a degree AND the ethical issues involved are quite troubling.

And I am sure you have realized already that even when such evidence is documented (it will eventually) there will be those willing to believe that just because it can happen it does not mean that it originally happened that way.
[quote/] Etc...[/quote]

Touché; but i am "religiously" agnostic. There is no way any of you could ever change my stubborn mind. I do not like using the word "fact" it seems too ignorant of other possibilities or the possibility that one can always be wrong. but for the sake of your, and my, happiness: evolution, and the theory of evolution, are the most likely possibilities so i will go with them form now. I always try to have the least number of assumptions as possible.
 
Last edited:
Top