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"Your righteousness must exceed the Scribes and Pharisees"
- Thread starter Shermana
- Start date
Shermana
Heretic
Can't say there's any way of showing who was blameless. Jesus did say "I have not come for the righteous" however, so he may have been implying there were some who were blameless like how Job was called blameless.
Are you saying Jesus said it was impossible?
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
(Matthew 23:23) Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU give the tenth of the mint and the dill and the cumin, but YOU have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness. These things it was binding to do, yet not to disregard the other things.
(Luke 11:42) But woe to YOU Pharisees, because YOU give the tenth of the mint and the rue and of every [other] vegetable, but YOU pass by the justice and the love of God! These things YOU were under obligation to do, but those other things not to omit.
Jesus stressed that love, justice, mercy and faithfulness were more important then some other aspects of the law such as giving the tithes (which are a part of the mosaic law) It seems the pharisees were very prompt when it came to following the formalistic features of the mosaic law, but they did not practice justice or mercy or love and for that reason Jesus condemned them because the Mosaic laws were to encourage that sort of behavior in people. But they failed to exhibit the righteousness of God which is expressed in the mosaic law.
so in answer to your question, no. Jesus was not saying that we must obey every law of the mosaic law code. True righteousness is expressed from the heart...never from a written code that we follow for the sake of following as the pharisees and scribes had done.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
to enter the kingdom of heaven a person would need to first be practicing the 'weightier matters of the law' namely justice, mercy, love
if we obey every other law, but fail to be merciful to our fellowman, then we will be called 'least' in the kingdom... meaning we wont get in at all.
So if we take Jesus words seriously, we need to look beyond the written law and see that their purpose is to show us how the 'weightier matters' are expressed in reality. But the laws themselves are not the reality because we can practice them formalisticly as the scribes and pharisees did...and which Jesus condemned.
Shermana
Heretic
No, Jesus was condemning the Pharisees for falsely adding to the Law while neglecting other things like tending to the poor. He specifically said not one iota of Torah will ever be void. He was specifically teaching full obedience to ALL the commandments. "Righteousness", by biblical definition, means adherence to the commandments, and it is righteousness that is the requisite for Heaven.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
yes, but he also said that the full obedience to all the law can be achieved if one practices love perfectly
Matthew 22:40 "on these two commandments the whole law hangs"'
LOve of God and love of neigbour is how the entire law is fulfilled....and that is why the written code would not be needed if someone loves perfectly.
Shermana
Heretic
"hangs" means "based on". Thus, every one of the commandments is BASED on love of G-d and neighbor. If you love G-d, you'll obey his statutes, 1 John 5:3. Jesus is not saying "You don't have to obey the statutes as long as you "love" (definition pending) G-d and neighbor". He is not replacing the commandments with only two, he is putting them into two broad categories of which they all "hang". The written code is the guidelines of how to love both G-d and man, that's what he's saying, and that's what 1 John 5:3 is saying.
Jesus is saying here, in this passage, that one's obedience to ALL the commandments, which "hang" on "Love of G-d" and "Love of Neighbor", must exceed the Scribes and the Pharisees to enter the Kingdom. He specifically says that anyone who teaches to break the least of them will be called the "Least" in the Kingdom.
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Sleeppy
Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
If you say that any were sinless, then they have no Savior in Jesus.
Matthew 12:5-7 Or did ye not read in the Law, that on the sabbaths the priests in the temple do profane the sabbath, and are blameless? and I say to you, that a greater than the temple is here; and if ye had known what is: Kindness I will, and not sacrifice -- ye had not condemned the blameless,
Matthew 19:7-9 They say to him, `Why then did Moses command to give a roll of divorce, and to put her away?' He saith to them -- `Moses for your stiffness of heart did suffer you to put away your wives, but from the beginning it hath not been so.`And I say to you, that, whoever may put away his wife, if not for whoredom, and may marry another, doth commit adultery; and he who did marry her that hath been put away, doth commit adultery.'
Matthew 11:11 Verily I say to you, there hath not risen, among those born of women, a greater than John the Baptist, but he who is least in the reign of the heavens is greater than he.
Matthew 8:17 Himself took our infirmities, and the sicknesses he did bear.
Matthew 9:11-13 the Pharisees having seen, said to his disciples, `Wherefore with the tax-gatherers and sinners doth your teacher eat?' And Jesus having heard, said to them, `They who are whole have no need of a physician, but they who are ill; but having gone, learn ye what is, Kindness I will, and not sacrifice, for I did not come to call righteous men, but sinners, to reformation.'
Matthew 18:32-35 Evil servant! all that debt I did forgive thee, seeing thou didst call upon me, did it not behove also thee to have dealt kindly with thy fellow-servant, as I also dealt kindly with thee? `And having been wroth, his lord delivered him to the inquisitors, till he might pay all that was owing to him;so also my heavenly Father will do to you, if ye may not forgive each one his brother from your hearts their trespasses.'
Matthew 8:11-12 I say to you, that many from east and west shall come and recline (at meat) with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the reign of the heavens, but the sons of the reign shall be cast forth to the outer darkness -- there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth.'
Matthew 22:8-10 The marriage-feast indeed is ready, and those called were not worthy, be going, then, on to the cross-ways, and as many as ye may find, call ye to the marriage-feasts.`And those servants, having gone forth to the ways, did gather all, as many as they found, both bad and good, and the marriage-feast apartment was filled with those reclining.
The point is, the law is not sufficient. Men are not sufficient. Only those in the body of Christ, through the Holy Spirit are sufficient in the will of God, which is the true law.
No, some apologist who was writing decades after the fact and who arguably never met the man has him speaking these words.
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
That's an example not a definition.
Shermana
Heretic
Explain how David saying that the commandments are righteousness is an example and not a definition.
Shermana
Heretic
Got proof? I love discussing interpolations but can you prove Matthew 5:17 and Luke 16:17 are interpolations?
not nom
Well-Known Member
it doesn't say "righteousness is all your words", but "all your words are righteousness". quite the difference when it comes to what is being defined.
Shermana
Heretic
It's arguable, especially in the language context, but if we have ", for all Thy commandments are RIGHTEOUSNESS" then we can at least conclude that "all thy commandments" are thus righteousness, whether or not the definition. To say that obedience to (all) the commandments is NOT righteousness in scriptural sense, would go against what Psalms is saying, even if its not the entirety of the definition.
javajo
Well-Known Member
Isaiah says our righteousness is as filthy rags. Abraham believed God, And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Rom. 4:22. So, too for us: Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. Rom. 4:23-24.
Having Christ's righteousness imputed unto us because we believe on him exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees.
Having Christ's righteousness imputed unto us because we believe on him exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees.
Shermana
Heretic
You are taking Isaiah 64:6 completely out of context: It's referring to a generation that completely abandoned the commandments and where the Temple was just freshly destroyed..
To have Christ's "righteousness imputed" means that the True Believer (True) who accepts his teachings properly will live as obedient to the Commandments as he. Abraham's faith clearly involved a work, you keep ignoring this fact.
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Shermana
Heretic
When I brought up the book on the general Scholarly concensus of Ruth, I actually presented a page number that discusses the specifics of the claims of the multiple scholar's claims about it. Can I cite F.C. Baur instead? If a scholar is going to be cited, it would be nice to actually present what the scholar is specifically saying for the specific issue in question instead of acting as a salesperson for their book. Otherwise, that's not really "debate". My book involved many scholars saying the same thing, can we see if Schnell represents the general concensus or is just one lone voice on the topic?
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JacobEzra.
Dr. Greenthumb
Either war, to be more rightous then the Phaiseez, then you must follow the commandment stricter then the Pharisees. That would mean to be stricter then the Pharisees, you would need to be stricter then the ultraorthodox.