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Featured Your Best Argument for God's Existence

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by ftacky, Jan 10, 2019.

  1. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    I drawed that conclusion because chance cannot create all this order and design. In fact under controlled experiments chance has been shown to not exist.

    Also, i conclude God created it because it cannot come from nothing, that makes no sense. It cannot create itself, thats a contradiction.

    Also i conclude God did it because if the universe had no beginning and was simply always there, then you would fall into infinite regression.
     
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  2. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Animals are orderly because of biology and genetics. The order is explained by ordinary biological mechanisms. It's not evidence of magic or intention.
    Animals have designs, but they aren't designed. They don't have intentional design.
    We don't know that. Just because humans can generate patterns and organization doesn't mean all patterns and order is a human product.
    Humans can make noise, kindle fires and make waves, too, but not all noise, fire and waves are human generated.
    DNA comes from ordinary chemistry and biology.
    "This information can be thought of as the basic set of inheritable "instructions" for the development and function of a human being."
    An Overview of the Human Genome Project
    [/quote]
    Not following...
    They can also occur by natural processes. Why do you think these processes don't work?
     
  3. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    Not following...
    They can also occur by natural processes. Why do you think these processes don't work?[/QUOTE]

    Ok, so.....design is there you admit (man, im glad you admitted that much. I had a debate with another atheist who said it dont even look designed).

    Ok, so, you say by natural mechanisms the design happens. Alright......break down the natural mechanisms for the DNA code information?
     
  4. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Unless you're using "design" to mean order, you're just spouting religious dogma. Things have pattern and order, yes, but these occur naturally, through ordinary chemistry, physics, &c. There is no evidence of conscious intention.
    I have no issues with God, nor any argument.
    The burden of proof is on the theist.
     
  5. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    You know. I think you're the only person I remember in RF that answer the question directly.
    Can chance be evidence of its own end or dependent on interpetationin

    It has to is personal demonstration of validity. Can it stand on its own?

    A lot of what you believe is not based on facts. So, when you see pattern, thats your perspective not a universal fact.

    Can one be blind in general for not seeing the creater in pattern or are they only blind because they can't see the others perspective?
     
  6. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Yes. But that doesn't answer my question though.
     
  7. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    "Design" can be ambiguous. Intentionality is often inferred, but here I'm using it simply to mean pattern or order.
    Ordinary biology; natural selection.
    I'm not quite sure what you're asking here. How does DNA work? How was it originally created? How did the functional arrangement of nucleotides occur?
     
  8. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Fill a bathtub with ping-pong balls and they'll arrange themselves in a perfectly ordered/designed/patterned crystalline lattice, but there is no intention behind the pattern, no hand of God sorting them out. Its all just ordinary physics.
     
  9. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    This question?
    "How can an atheist address the issues he has with god when the theist doesn't have a solid definition to which that atheist can properly build his own argument?" I'm not aware of any issues atheists have with God. What did you have in mind?

    Different atheists might have different arguments with theists, but I can't think of any arguments that would apply to basic, weak atheism, unless you're thinking of 'arguments' disencumbering theists of their misunderstandings about atheism.
    Definitions? Yes, a mutual understanding of terms is needed in any serious discussion or the interlocutors will end up talking past each other. In fact, in the regular atheism-theism debates that occur regularly here, the understanding of the term "atheist" seems to be the most controversial point.
     
  10. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Umm.... all of RF? Weird question. You mean in person?

    No. I'm pretty simple. A lot of atheists have problems with god. Nothing more.

    How did you get this above from this: "How can an atheist address the issues he has with god when the theist doesn't have a solid definition to which that atheist can properly build his own argument?"

    Can an atheist address issues with god if theist don't have a solid definition in which the atheist can appropriate address his or her concerns?

     
  11. Salvador

    Salvador Conscious Being

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    Because of the compelling evidence to me for Salvador's God, there's good reason for me to believe in this cosmic ancestor(s) of extraterrestrial intelligence who invented our genetic code where the semantic message of 037 is embedded by Salvador's God who is everybody's cosmic ancestor.

    Extraterrestrial intelligence has left its/their mark in our genetic code as evident by how the numeric and semantic message of 037 appears in our genetic code. Each codon relates to 3 other particular codons having the same particular type of initial nucleobase and sequential nucleobase subsequently then followed by a different ending nucleobase. Half of these 4 set of codon groups ( whole family codons ) each code for the same particular amino acid. The other half of those 4 set of codon groups ( split codons ) don't code for the same amino acid. So then, in the case of whole family codons, there are 37 amino acid peptide chain nucleons for each relevant nucleobase determinant of how a particular amino acid gets coded. Start codons express 0 at the beginning of 37 Hence, the semantic message of 037 gets unambiguously and factually conveyed to us descendants of our cosmic ancestor(s) with our genetic code invented by a superior intelligence beyond that of anybody presently bound to Earth.

    Salvador's God is the proven inventor of our genetic code as evident in the "WOW! Signal of the Terrestrial Genetic Code" that scientists discovered back in 2012.

    Reference: The "Wow! signal" of the terrestrial genetic code. Vladimir l. shCherbak and Maxim A. Makukov. Icarus, May 2013,Redirectinghttps://www.scribd.com/document/35302916...netic-Code

    The significance of the semantic message "037" embedded in our genetic coding is well-explained in the following journal articles: .
    Biosystems Volume 70, Issue 3, August 2003, Pages 187-209 "Arithmetic inside the universal genetic code" Author: Vladimir I. shCherbak
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar...4703000662

    NeuroQuantology | December 2011 | Vol 9 | Issue 4 | Page 702-715 Masic, Natasa Nested Properties of shCherbak’s PQ 037 and (Biological) Coding/Computing Nested Numeric/Geometric/Arithmetic Propertiesof shCherbak’s Prime Quantum 037 as a Base of (Biological) Coding/Computing
    http://Nested Numeric/Geometric/Arithmetic Properties


    Exactly who/what left its/their mark in our genetic coding might not ever get determined by anybody presently bound to Earth. The search for our cosmic relatives and cosmic common ancestor likely then needs to be done with advanced space exploration.

    Whether there is extraterrestrial intelligent life with whom we Earthlings share a common cosmic ancestor who is Salvador's God would be testable with advanced space probes capable of interstellar space travel and DNA probing of extraterrestrial life forms.




     
    #71 Salvador, Jan 11, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  12. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Methinks it is like a weasel.
     
  13. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    I guess thats a good thing, yes? I like to not beat around the bush. Just cut to the chase.

    I dont think chance is evidence of its own end. Under controlled experiments chance has shown to be none existent. The Not So Random Coin Toss

    Heres the thing, intelligent design and information does stand on its own. How? Not based on proof, but based on evidence, inference and philosophical thought. However, when you stand intelligent design up against the ONLY other alternatives, it stands even stronger.

    And the other alternatives are also not proven, but also are philosophical, but, the logic in those breaks down.

    Is a pattern a fact? Complexity with many functioning parts, is that a fact?

    ID uses these facts to INFER intelligence.

    For me this is a psychological question and one that interests me a whole lot. I think its a case by case basis. Some atheist people are mentally blind. While some atheism is a emotional position. So, i think its a case by case.

    There may be a rare third case, these would he atheists that do see the perspective of ID, but are not firm to there position out of emotionalism. They merely stick to there position of atheism PURELY due to the fact they have not directly seen the creator. A true blue doubting thomas. These folks have value in there mindset, but, again, i simply think there position is wrong.
     
  14. viole

    viole Metaphysical Naturalist
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    How do you know then that something is designed is nothing is not designed?

    Ciao

    - viole
     
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  15. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    Give me that again? I did not understand.

    Do you mean how can i know if theres design if theres nothing to compare none design too?
     
    #75 Jollybear, Jan 12, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
  16. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    How did instructional codes in DNA come about from unintelligent natural mechanisms? What are those mechanisms that do that?
     
  17. viole

    viole Metaphysical Naturalist
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    Yes.

    Ciao

    - viole
     
  18. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    Ok....well, based off what we know of how codes and information work and design works from human engineering, we see this kind of thing in nature, so, we infere actual design in nature.

    Also, how we can tell NONE design is by taking all the parts of a unbuilt car, throwing them on the ground and wait till a tornado hits it and then hope by chance all the parts come together just right in order to build the car. It wont happen. But, all those designed parts by themselves are NOT a designed car UNTIL the parts come together, THEN its a designed car. So then, we know from human engineering again, what none design looks like. So, based on that, we infer EVERYTHING in nature is designed.
     
  19. viole

    viole Metaphysical Naturalist
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    That's strange. Those parts are not indicative of a designed car? They might not be part of a BUILT car, but for sure they have been designed with the designed car already in mind.
    Take 100 different cars, break them down, take randomly one component from the heap (e.g. the steering wheel, the brakes, etc) and try to reassemble a full functioning cars without add ons.
    You will find it difficult also with tornadoes.

    So, back to square one.

    Ciao

    - viole
     
  20. Thirza Fallen

    Thirza Fallen Crazy Cat Lady

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    Most atheists are ex-Christians, so we believed at once time.
     
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