1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Your Best Argument for God's Existence

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by ftacky, Jan 10, 2019.

  1. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    23,815
    Ratings:
    +7,816
    Design isn't evidence of god; that is a matter of individual perspective.

    Can you demonstrate how you can see god as fact so when a non-believer looks at the same thing, he will see the god of abraham?

    Facts cannot depend on you nor the believer; it stands alone. It should not be a product or described by your belief.

    Can you explain the connection without considering the rest of us blind for not seeing what you see?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2010
    Messages:
    3,563
    Ratings:
    +439
    Religion:
    Christian/mystic
    Design is not direct proof of a God. It IS EVIDENCE of a God. It sure is. Information from what we KNOW always comes from a mind. Design and information is not an argument from ignorence, its an argument from what we know of the world.

    That would require PROOF. That i cannot give. Proof and evidence are not the same.

    Also you mentioned the God of abraham. In Intelligent design you dont have to believe in any one particular God to adhere to intelligent design. Why? Because its akin to seeing a car, you know its designed, but you dont know WHO designed it.

    Well, theres theists, deists, pantheists, polytheists, even people who believe aliens made us. All these folks can adhere to intelligent design and information.

    Thats right. But, since so little is proven in this world, we go by evidence, inference, logic or philosophy.

    Well, the OP put it well. Information in the DNA. Also complexity in the world. Also spiritual experiences. Like NDEs.
     
  3. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2017
    Messages:
    2,664
    Ratings:
    +1,078
    Religion:
    Christian
    Careful...you are begging the next generation of computer technology to surpass God...
     
  4. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    23,815
    Ratings:
    +7,816
    Please don't shout. I read everything.

    Can you find evidence and with that evidence prove that design leads to an creator?

    If you can demonstrate the connection between the evidence of design and creator, than I'd understand what you're talking about. I'm not an evidence wanting person. I'm just asking you to use what you consider as evidence and demonstrate how design leads to a creator apart from your belief.
    Please. Not with the caps and nit picking. It throws off the conversation.

    There is evidence of god in design, okay. Don't prove god exists, just demonstrate how design shows god.

    Yes. It comes from the mind. It's an experience. DNA doesn't come from the mind. How did you get DNA show god? What's the connection outside of your mind?

    Yes. We know the world, but god is not part of the natural world; so, that statement does not work in this conversation.

    I can careless about proof and evidence. If I rephrased it....

    Can you demonstrate the evidence you have in your mind is proof that DNA is related and caused by god?

    Drop the evidence and proof. Can you demonstrate how the structure of DNA means god?

    But the design of DNA doesn't show me a creator. If you were to explain to me how it does, how would you start?

    I know in RF pantheist and polytheist don't think that way. It varies. Probably deists. Not all theists. That's a broad stroke there.

    But, can you explain how these people as a group see the "intelligent design" outside their mind?

    Facts arent dependent on a person's theological stance.

    What is the evidence that the design of DNA shows a creator?

    I can't argue experiences don't lead and prove the evidence of god is valid; that's a given. What doesn't make sense is the OP using the design of DNA (and any design) to prove god. I'm not questioning evidence of god's existence. Do you know how the OP got design DNA to show a creator?

    I see design, yes. Intelligent? That makes no sense. Creator? That depends on the person. There is no creator. Everything shapes, evolves, and creates within itself. However, my question is how does DNA design show a creator?

    Can you demonstrate how? (You don't have to use physics just logic of how you got to that conclusion)
     
  5. Trip Bapho

    Trip Bapho Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2019
    Messages:
    71
    Ratings:
    +30
    Religion:
    Free Thinker
    So.. Who created the creator?
    Beginningless, right?
    Why does that make more sense than just a beginningless energy?
    Just because you use materialistic words such as "pages of paper"..That's not the reality. Its a system that as only one unconscious intent.. Life. It can very well do all the things you mentioned because its not like it happened in perfection all at once.. It has an beginningless infinite chances to do so seeing how its beyond time.
     
  6. Hawkins

    Hawkins Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2008
    Messages:
    1,230
    Ratings:
    +86
    Testimony remains the most fundamental way for humans to get a truth of any kind! At least that's the way how our history is written.
     
  7. Trip Bapho

    Trip Bapho Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2019
    Messages:
    71
    Ratings:
    +30
    Religion:
    Free Thinker
    Its actually the opposite. Instead of just believing what my parents told me was true I went and did my own search. Its not stubborn to simply not believe in something that appears unnatural & immoral. Ill highly consider any possibility thrown my way with an open mind. Where as.. A lot of religious people simply dismiss any info that doesn't jive with their God or whatever without even thinking about it. So who's stubborn?Within my experince inner peace came when losing religion so why should I think what someone else thinks just bc they say its better?
     
    • Like Like x 2
  8. Hawkins

    Hawkins Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2008
    Messages:
    1,230
    Ratings:
    +86
    No can anyone prove any evidence of any meals you ever eaten!
     
  9. Trip Bapho

    Trip Bapho Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2019
    Messages:
    71
    Ratings:
    +30
    Religion:
    Free Thinker
    If you are willing to step into the bathroom with me I can show you proof of what I have eaten.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  10. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2010
    Messages:
    3,563
    Ratings:
    +439
    Religion:
    Christian/mystic
    Yea, and one of my parrents (dad) told me there was no God. The parrents that told me there was, ok, whatever. I did also my own research and i concluded God is real.

    When the evidence and logic for a God is overwhelming, then i concluded the rejectors of it are stubborn deniers.

    If you are already aware of design and information in nature and yet still reject it, then your mind is blind.

    Thats false because i think about it alot. And i know alot of others that do too.

    You are and everyone like you is too.

    Liberty has a sense of peace. But, youl never be free of God. Hes got you by the balls buddy.
     
  11. Trip Bapho

    Trip Bapho Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2019
    Messages:
    71
    Ratings:
    +30
    Religion:
    Free Thinker
    At least I'm not here saying you and everyone like you is some type of way.. Ill continue on as is whether or not your god is playing with my balls.
     
  12. Hawkins

    Hawkins Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2008
    Messages:
    1,230
    Ratings:
    +86
    No, what I would like to know is the meal you ate today but last year! What can you show me about it if I follow you to your bedroom?
     
  13. Trip Bapho

    Trip Bapho Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2019
    Messages:
    71
    Ratings:
    +30
    Religion:
    Free Thinker
    Might be able drop a piece of gum from a couple years ago. I'll try.
     
  14. Hawkins

    Hawkins Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2008
    Messages:
    1,230
    Ratings:
    +86
    Well how many meals you ever had? Wish that you still keep a gum or two of each to them.
     
  15. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    23,815
    Ratings:
    +7,816
    Bad example.

    Take two lovers both girlfriends who love each other and no one can separate them. If, one day, one girlfriend passes away, does that mean she no longer existed?

    While we have her pictures and family, we only have the family's word of mouth to a complete stranger. That stranger also sees "someone" in a photo album but takes the family's word for it that she is who she is or do they need to know them theirselves.

    How can you prove one's experience insofar that that experience is concrete evidence for the experience of love of the other's deceased girlfriend?

    All you have is your experiences, and the testimonies of family, friends, and strangers that crossed the other's path while she was alive. However, many people say "my condolences" because they didn't know her.

    No one can expect a person to experience the love of the girlfriend nor ask her friends and family about that love so that they can experience it the same way as the family. Either they can get to know the family and, as such, experience their pain through them as a good friend or, they don't need to know the family because they have love within their own family, loved one, and mate.

    To anyone who says they should be part of their family to experience love doesn't make sense. That's like telling a stranger in order to experience my imaginary deceased girlfriend's love, you must get to know her (and me), if not, you're blind.

    Kinda see why atheists are a bit confused over this logic?

    Edit: Assuming the girlfriend was cremated and her ashes were scatted years ago.
     
    #35 Unveiled Artist, Jan 11, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  16. Trip Bapho

    Trip Bapho Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2019
    Messages:
    71
    Ratings:
    +30
    Religion:
    Free Thinker
    28,427 meals with videos of me eating each one.
     
  17. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2017
    Messages:
    10,500
    Ratings:
    +7,018
    Religion:
    None

    It appears you are taking evolution which is shown and observed to be a natural occurrence and saying "God dun it".

    Oh and the "no explanation"
    Life's First Spark Re-Created in the Laboratory
    Explained, DEMONSTRATED and VALIDATED by doing it.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Willamena

    Willamena Just me
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2006
    Messages:
    38,687
    Ratings:
    +6,068
    It comes from apophatic theology.

    The early Greek notion of "God" was of a transcendent reality. The Seventeenth Century "Enlightenment" came to a similar conclusion with the notion of noumenon (to contrast with phenomenon), although that may have been informed by the ancient Greek notion. Many people today believe in a firm divide between the world as we know it, translated into thought by the brain, and the world beyond that (e.g. "Matrix" theory).
    Noumenon - Wikipedia

    It's more a way of saying any God that you think of isn't God that is "out there."

     
    #38 Willamena, Jan 11, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
    • Informative Informative x 1
  19. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2011
    Messages:
    19,151
    Ratings:
    +11,896
    Religion:
    Druidry
    Mine's pretty simple. It's also personal. It's for me, not for you or anyone else, as it stems from my life experiences and background.

    First, some premises:

    • Let "gods" designate that which is worthy of worship.
    • Let "worthy" designate any qualities that merit recognition, attention, respect, or value
      • Examples: having abilities I do not, being something I depend on to exist, being fundamentally greater, being awe-inspiring or fascinating
    • Let "worship" designate expressions of gratitude, adoration and/or reverence, especially with a ceremonial or ritualistic context
    Next, some observations about myself:
    • I'm one of those lucky people who managed to never loose their child-like fascination and wonder at everything.
    • As such, I find everything to be worthy. I'm able to recognize everything has unique gifts, and that all threads in this tapestry we call the world support me and are greater than I am as an individual.
    • While I'm pretty bad about ceremony and ritual, I like to engage in small gestures to say thanks to the world for being so awesome.
    Therefore:
    • Since I attribute something as worthy and enjoy making worshipful gestures towards those things, my world is full of gods.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  20. viole

    viole Metaphysical Naturalist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2014
    Messages:
    8,220
    Ratings:
    +3,508
    Religion:
    Gnostic Atheism
    Well try. The problem is that there is no evidence, to even try.

    Ciao

    - viole
     
    • Like Like x 1
Loading...