Yemeni child bride dies after internal bleeding on marriage night

[Saint Frankenstein]

OK, your a globalist. That means the world should be the highest authority not the United States government then. If that is true, China, India, Russia and the like may want to restrict religion or two billion Muslims might want Sharia law.

Should these folks have a say on what is right and what is wrong for the planet?

Should we as a country consume the lion's share of things when we are the minority population?

What if our concept of freedom is not supported by the majority of the planet?

What if the world decides everyone should have clean drinking water and other first world countries should abolish their healthcare plans?

We flush our toilets with clean water while others have none.

Remember, a globalist has to think of the whole planet not just ourselves.

A globalist would have to respect what everyone else wants if they are in the majority.

Bottom line, our 250 million people cannot dictate to two billion Muslims how they treat their women.

How do we accomplish your lofty goal, blow them all to hell? That will make things better. :no:

You are still misunderstanding what I am saying. If you don't get it by now, I don't think you ever will. I've explained myself quite clearly.

 

[outhouse]

Once 18 and out of the house, my daughter can make her own decisions completely free from my wishes. I just hope to raise her to be self-respecting and intelligent

That is all we can all wish for, theist or atheist.


Im keeping my fingers crossed.

 

[nash8]

In that case then, I suppose the "specific part" with (in this case) the religions of Abrahamic Monotheism which can add to the problem, is the interpretation of "divine permission". I'll admit that a pretty broad thing to say, but think about - I can do this because it's God's will/I have God's permission etc.

That is why I say we can judge a society's religious influence on stuff like this, rather than just poverty, lack of education, culture etc. Religion may not be the primary factor, but it is one that cannot just be dismissed, at least in my opinion.

Where does God say that child marriage is ok within the Quran? The Quran is accepted as God's word, Hadith is man's word. That is pretty much accepted within the Islamic community as far as I can tell. Hadith is what provides the basis for child marriage and that is man's word, not Gods

The Qur'an, Hadith, and the Prophet Muhammad

This might be a good time to mention that RF's founder had a dream of world peace. If all of us can learn about each other and get along, it might just be one step in the right direction. World peace has to start somewhere, why not on a world internet forum?

I'm down with the world peace starting on a world internet forum. It seems like that would only be fitting that world peace came about through the internet.

 

[nash8]

Thats why I tried avoiding the use of the word government but I suppose it still strongly implies that huh? I just meant whoever is setting, monitoring and enforcing the rules in that region (tribal council etc).

But the tribal councils are notorious for simply molding their own pre-islamic tribal beliefs into Islam. The prevelance of Sharia law, which is the basis for the unfair treatment of women within Islam, is most prominent in poor countries such as Yemen, or in countries such as Saudi Arabia where a small group of people control every aspect of social life.

Sharia is basically the formation of pre-Islamic tribal customs into the religion of Islam in my opinion. If you look at Sharia in the Quran, it's nowhere near the Sharia that is practiced in most countries. And Muslim countries that are politically and socioeconomically advanced like Turkey do not follow Sharia law, and even outlaw it.

Yet let us look merely at those inanimate portions you mentioned, the texts, their content and character therefore while not 'responsible' for the man's actions serves to act as justification (if not actually contributing to the desire for it, which it may for some and not for many) - obviously this can only be done by individuals, one needs to read the text (or at least pretend to have) in order to be able to use content within it as justification.

Hadith, which is used to justify child marriage is not considered by Muslims to be the word of God. So can the words of a man be considered a religion?

If there is indeed content within the text that condones such behaviour it would mean one of two things - either that the content is immoral and/or incorrect or that the content - held to be indicative of what it means to be a good muslim, shows that the behaviour is moral. If indeed there is content in the texts which supports such assertions; regardless of whether or not all muslims interpret them the same way or even accept them, those texts are indeed problematic in that the content within condones immorality in princple and has been used to justify it in practice.

Indeed I agree. Hadiths are those texts, but they are the words of man even by their own adherents. So if the words of man can be called a religion, I can call anything I write a religion I guess. And if people choose to follow what I wrote than they have religious justification for it?

Once again, only mentioning the Quran. And yes, I am stating the entire religious community - though I recognise gradiated of responsibility not uniformity. In the same way I have some small responsibility over things that I have extremely limited control, I have more responsibility as my control increases, that is where responsibility comes from - our awareness of the situation and our ability to effect it without breaking the law or our acceptance of it.

Anything that it is in direct opposition to the Quran is not Islamic. Non-violence is in the Quran so anything violent would be against the Quran, and therefore not Islamic, except in cases of self defense. The people that purport that violence is justified in the Quran or not Muslim in my opinion.

I am not exactly sure what most of this is intended to mean, but on the last point? A text can be considered a religious text in the formal sense through acceptance of it by various religious institutions and so forth, i.e. its adoption;

So religious institutions get to decide what texts are religious? Are the apochraphya religious because they were not accepted by the religious institution of Christianity?

note that gradient of responsibility I mentioned before; one who adopts the text would be higher on th gradient than one who does not - but even for those who rejected it simply by being aware that the text is there and of its content (in order to reject it) by being aware of the content one has obtained responsibility - at the absolute least to ensure the reasons for that disagreement are disseminated to everyone who might one day be exposed to that content and need to determine whether or not to accept it.

I agree that everyone is responsible at least in some small way, but everyone does not include the religion itself. Especially when the doctrine is not even contained within the main Holy book of the religion.

Even non Muslims are indeed responsible for this - it is merely that we are further down the gradient that muslims in general, who are further down from those muslims who accept the texts, further down from those who accept the interpretations, further down from those who accept the practice, further down from those who practice.

I agree but nowhere do I put the responsibility on the religion itself, but rather the people that interpret the religion to fit their own needs. Especially considering what they support is not even supported within their own holy book. People are corrupting the religion in my opinion, not the other way around.

I have no idea how a discussion of what consistutes a muslim is relevant to this topic. I am willing to discuss it elsewhere (though would probably be vastly underqualified) but it seems inappropriate for this thread.

Because when you claim Islam contributes to the problem that the OP originally posted, you are including everyone that identifies themselves as a Muslim as contributer to the problem, not that they are just responsible for preventing it, whether you intended to or not. And the other point is that what constitutes a Muslim is not a black or white line. And when you say Islam contributes to these actions, you are saying that every Muslim contributes to these problems, as they are Islam. While I agree with you that we are all responsible, both Muslims and non-Muslims, I don't agree that either are neccesarily contributing to the problem. Contribution requires an action to help allow the act to happen, responsibility does not.

In the same way that Christianity (and its texts) support the hatespeech of the WBC (which it does) it can also at the same time denounce it (which it does) the two are not exclusive, just as is the case with Islam and pedophilia,

Indeed, and if a holy scripture says one thing in one place, and opposes it in another place. Whose burden is it on now to determine what to do given to choices?

 

[nash8]

Sharia (the princple) is an ideal of theologically based justice; Sharia (the structure of the various legal systems) an attempt to codify the principle, Sharia (the practice) an attempt to implement that code on a population. The theological code is that of someone's interpretation of Islamic lore, it is no more a religion seperate to Islam than the formulation of certain rituals for religious observance (because that is essentially what it is). Saying Sharia is a religion would be kind of like saying that the structure of a mass is a religion itself, it is not.

Compare the interpretation of Sharia law in the Quran which is supposed to be where Sharia gets it's foundation, with the Sharia law that is enacted in many Islamic countries. I think you will find that it is totally different.

If you agree with the rest, then I am not sure there is a basis to NOT agree with the first. Responsibility is not an on/off deal, it comes in increments, in degrees - I personally bear some small portoin of responsibility with relation to how that girl suffered (it is indeed a small portion of responsibility, but certainly I do, because I tolerated what I believe to be nonsense, but was used as justification for rape, what control I might have exercised over the situation is negligible and thus the responsibility is minute, but it persists).

How so? I don't place any responsibility on the religion itself. Responsibility is totally on the person. Especially when the holy book of the religion doesn't condone the actions. I agree that responsibility is on us all, and by us I mean humanity, not religion.

Truly? You think the Imams in Turkey are scared of those in Yemen? You think the people of Iraq scared of those in Yemen? You think the Indoneseans scared of those in Yemen? Why is it that all of them - nations all over the world, many of whom are far more powerful than Yemen, all scared?

Turkey does not practice Sharia law, and on that note is Turkey supposed to go into Yemen and militarily force Yemen to stop enforcing these laws?

But that was not my point, it was the people within the countries, that do feel that that this treatment of women is wrong. For example, if the brother of the girl who this happened to spoke out against the marriage and tried to stop it from happening, what do you think would have happened to him? Would his opposition have stopped this from happening? Would you give your life for someone well knowing that your sacrifice would most likely go in vain?

Apparently 'fear' is insufficient to prevent Imams from speaking out, or people from gathering on the streets to protest when it comes to a technologically overwlelming foe such as America, it does not prevent the overwhelming message of unity in cause against something that they deem to be wrong as espousal or rejection of perceived immorality.

Imams don't fear, they are the ones that incite the fear. And speaking out against a country that is halfway across the world is not the same is speaking out against someone who has 10 armed men pointing an ak-47 at your face.

I highly doubt fear of Yemen fanatics is enough to still tongues that still wag even in the face of US force (far more potent than what Yemen might muster) - but even if it were the case, that would not alter the responsibility you or I have in order to try to ensure that some other little girl is not going to be raped to death again tonight, while a pedophile uses some religious interpretation as justification for their actions.

But American force is not real. It is not something you see on a daily basis. And I would argue that many of the leaders of other countries, save for maybe Turkey, and even that is questionable with the new regime, support the fanatics of Yemen, as many of them are fanatics themselve. I agree that you and I are responsible for what happened, but what do you suggest that we do? The only thing I see that we can do is organize a political party that controls congress and demand that we use military force to stop what happened in Yemen from happening again.

And on that note, if your down i'm down. I have been trying to convince people to start a "tea party" like political party with enlightenment ideals for a while now, but the tea party has basically ruined that idea for anyone that holds any attachment to the ignorance of the power that that party held rather than the ideals they promoted, and that is the majority of people. It would only take a very small majority of people within each state with common ideals, to control the Senate. Look at what the tea party did with the exact same tactics. It's just that their ideals were controlled by large corporate owners, and eventually people realized the ploy, but the their tactic was nonetheless effective.

 

[Aquitaine]

Where does God say that child marriage is ok within the Quran? The Quran is accepted as God's word, Hadith is man's word. That is pretty much accepted within the Islamic community as far as I can tell. Hadith is what provides the basis for child marriage and that is man's word, not Gods

Well then you need to ask yourself why some Muslims are claiming it's acceptable "in Islam" to marry a 9 year old, because of Mohammad's apparent marriage to Aisha at 9.

Look, all I'm saying is that religion (along with culture, economics, and politics etc) can have an influence on societal problems. I don't understand why some people in this thread appear to be having a hard time grasping that.

 

[nash8]

Well then you need to ask yourself why some Muslims are claiming it's acceptable "in Islam" to marry a 9 year old, because of Mohammad's apparent marriage to Aisha at 9.

Because a man said Mohammad did it? I could say Mohammed did anything, but does that mean it is a part of Islam? And I would not personally call those people Muslims, nor would I call the people that promote Jihad Muslims, nor any other person that claims any type of violence against another person as justified, as the Quran specifically forbids violence against others.

Look, all I'm saying is that religion (along with culture, economics, and politics etc) can have an influence on societal problems. I don't understand why some people in this thread appear to be having a hard time grasping that.

Religion is definitely an influence, I never argued that, what I am arguing that religion is not responsible.

 

[payak]

I don't care who does, what nations or religions, you don't justify it by saying others do it to.

Farouk, your wife was told to marry you, my wife wanted to.

You say you were gentle and new how not to hurt her, obviously you are well experienced in handling little girls.

 

[FearGod]

Oh it IS my business, just beyond my control. That is if they are an adult and out of my home.

My kids pulled that, "I am 18, you can't tell me what to do".

All I said was as long as you drive that car or live in my house or expect to get any money from me, you will respect my wishes.

You know what? They are on their own and I have gave them a million dollar farm and have absolutely no control over them any more and they still respect my wishes.

Those what i call real men,who care about their kids all the time.

Your kids were brought up and educated by you to respect your words and your wishes and such relation shouldn't cease once the kid became a youth.

Of course we do agree that our kids should have a space of freedom even before reaching the age of 18,but that doesn't mean that we have to let them to do whatever they wish and our response to be "it isn't my business".

How can i keep silent if i see my lovely girl coming home drunk every night because she is 18 years +1 day,it isn't my business.

What if my daughter becomes drugs addict,it isn't my business.

And i am afraid if the young girl asking her dad one day that she wants to suicide,then the response of her dad,OK my sweet baby,you are free to do that,it isn't my business,you are 18 years now.

i am treating my kids the same as you do,it is my business till i die.

 

[Koldo]

Because a man said Mohammad did it? I could say Mohammed did anything, but does that mean it is a part of Islam? And I would not personally call those people Muslims, nor would I call the people that promote Jihad Muslims, nor any other person that claims any type of violence against another person as justified, as the Quran specifically forbids violence against others.

You are underestimating the relevancy of Muhammad on Islam.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

But the tribal councils are notorious for simply molding their own pre-islamic tribal beliefs into Islam.

Which is why I noted culture as being extremely important. You seem to have a rather extreme reluctance to recognise that religious philosophies, however 'poorly' implemented or malformed or misinterpreted, could potentially be a factor. The fact that you are so adamant about attempting to suggest Sharia as something which is not part of Islam is deeply indicative of a rather arbitrary and subjective differentiation.

The inquisition and witch hunts were deplorable and difficult to consider 'christian' by most people's everyday standards and indeed their actions are difficult to square with a modern interpretation of the chrisitian texts. That does not change the fact that they were christian, nor that what they were doing is indeed an implementation of their understanding of christian theology, it is merely that it is an interpretation most modern christians would reject.

Finding something disagreeable is not sufficient and you have not provided any objective criteria for differentiation; there is not much point discussing it further if you cannot grasp that even if you disagree with their particular interpretations of religious texts and philosophies and the attempts to codify and implement such perspectives of theology, it does indeed remain true that Sharia is part of Islam, you might contest it's foundations, its accuracy in encoding theological standards, the legitimacy of those who attempt to implement it or even their motivations - it remains part of Islam.

-

Rev earlier said that we cannot blame an entire 2 Billion people for this; that is both correct and incorrect, we can't blame MERELY 2 billion for this, every single person that is aware this sort of thing is happening and does not attempt to stop it, is partly responsible. Those who have more influence over the situation have more culpability, in fact it is directly proportional to how much influence one has. Not Two Billion, Seven.

 

[shalom-sobal]

What is wrong with marrying 15 years girl

Celebrities in general sleep with men under 15

One of them said I can't believe that I am virgin till now and she was 20 years old

Emma Watson has only nine years while she was acting in harrypotter and making sex

Angelina Jolie said following

"I had started having sex with my boyfriend at 14 and the sex and the emotions didn't feel enough," she said

Kim kardisan said


"I'd say around late 14 or early 15 [I lost it],"


Kelly Osbourne
The newly-engaged star wasn't so much worried about the awkwardness of sex at 13 as she was about the consequences. "I convinced myself I was pregnant," she said. "I hadn't even gotten my period [yet]."

P.diddy

said. "I was on top of a girl who was 9 or 10, but it didn't happen—so everybody doesn't have to bug out!

Matthew Fox
Sex isn't always romantic—and Matthew Fox learned that his first time. "I was 12

The list will not end



Islam more respectful asking people to marry before sex

There is nothing wrong with islam, it is people who is full of sins

 

[outhouse]

What is wrong with marrying 15 years girl

Celebrities in general sleep with men under 15

One of them said I can't believe that I am virgin till now and she was 20 years old

Emma Watson has only nine years while she was acting in harrypotter and making sex

Angelina Jolie said following

"I had started having sex with my boyfriend at 14 and the sex and the emotions didn't feel enough," she said

Kim kardisan said


"I'd say around late 14 or early 15 [I lost it],"


Kelly Osbourne
The newly-engaged star wasn't so much worried about the awkwardness of sex at 13 as she was about the consequences. "I convinced myself I was pregnant," she said. "I hadn't even gotten my period [yet]."

P.diddy

said. "I was on top of a girl who was 9 or 10, but it didn't happen—so everybody doesn't have to bug out!

Matthew Fox
Sex isn't always romantic—and Matthew Fox learned that his first time. "I was 12

The list will not end



Islam more respectful asking people to marry before sex

There is nothing wrong with islam, it is people who is full of sins

Quit making excuses dude.

two wrongs dont make it right, your condoning child marriage embarrassing.

 

[outhouse]

Which is why I noted culture as being extremely important. You seem to have a rather extreme reluctance to recognise that religious philosophies, however 'poorly' implemented or malformed or misinterpreted, could potentially be a factor. The fact that you are so adamant about attempting to suggest Sharia as something which is not part of Islam is deeply indicative of a rather arbitrary and subjective differentiation.

The inquisition and witch hunts were deplorable and difficult to consider 'christian' by most people's everyday standards and indeed their actions are difficult to square with a modern interpretation of the chrisitian texts. That does not change the fact that they were christian, nor that what they were doing is indeed an implementation of their understanding of christian theology, it is merely that it is an interpretation most modern christians would reject.

Finding something disagreeable is not sufficient and you have not provided any objective criteria for differentiation; there is not much point discussing it further if you cannot grasp that even if you disagree with their particular interpretations of religious texts and philosophies and the attempts to codify and implement such perspectives of theology, it does indeed remain true that Sharia is part of Islam, you might contest it's foundations, its accuracy in encoding theological standards, the legitimacy of those who attempt to implement it or even their motivations - it remains part of Islam.

-

Rev earlier said that we cannot blame an entire 2 Billion people for this; that is both correct and incorrect, we can't blame MERELY 2 billion for this, every single person that is aware this sort of thing is happening and does not attempt to stop it, is partly responsible. Those who have more influence over the situation have more culpability, in fact it is directly proportional to how much influence one has. Not Two Billion, Seven.

There is something going on here that is religious in nature that has them not just turning their heads,but standing up fro this practice.

Look at how many in this thread alone are trying to justify the practice. Its sad.

 

[ohhcuppycakee]

What is wrong with marrying 15 years girl

Celebrities in general sleep with men under 15

One of them said I can't believe that I am virgin till now and she was 20 years old

Emma Watson has only nine years while she was acting in harrypotter and making sex

Angelina Jolie said following

"I had started having sex with my boyfriend at 14 and the sex and the emotions didn't feel enough," she said

Kim kardisan said


"I'd say around late 14 or early 15 [I lost it],"


Kelly Osbourne
The newly-engaged star wasn't so much worried about the awkwardness of sex at 13 as she was about the consequences. "I convinced myself I was pregnant," she said. "I hadn't even gotten my period [yet]."

P.diddy

said. "I was on top of a girl who was 9 or 10, but it didn't happen—so everybody doesn't have to bug out!

Matthew Fox
Sex isn't always romantic—and Matthew Fox learned that his first time. "I was 12

The list will not end



Islam more respectful asking people to marry before sex

There is nothing wrong with islam, it is people who is full of sins

Please stop. Oh my God.

 

[Levite]

What is wrong with marrying 15 years girl

Celebrities in general sleep with men under 15

One of them said I can't believe that I am virgin till now and she was 20 years old

Emma Watson has only nine years while she was acting in harrypotter and making sex

Angelina Jolie said following

"I had started having sex with my boyfriend at 14 and the sex and the emotions didn't feel enough," she said

Kim kardisan said


"I'd say around late 14 or early 15 [I lost it],"


Kelly Osbourne
The newly-engaged star wasn't so much worried about the awkwardness of sex at 13 as she was about the consequences. "I convinced myself I was pregnant," she said. "I hadn't even gotten my period [yet]."

P.diddy

said. "I was on top of a girl who was 9 or 10, but it didn't happen—so everybody doesn't have to bug out!

Matthew Fox
Sex isn't always romantic—and Matthew Fox learned that his first time. "I was 12

The list will not end



Islam more respectful asking people to marry before sex

There is nothing wrong with islam, it is people who is full of sins

First of all, I highly doubt that Emma Watson was having any sex while filming Harry Potter.

Second of all, most of the rest of those folks are hardly role models. Celebrities, in fact, are more often known for making disastrously bad choices than good ones.

Third of all, there is a huge difference between a 13-15 year old choosing to have sex with another teenager around the same age, and a ten year old girl being sold off to marry an adult man, or even an older teenager.

Third of all, the problem isn't necessarily Islam, but certain interpretations of it; along with certain cultural practices of some non-Muslim cultures also, which foster the idea that it might ever be okay to rape children as long as they have been forced to go through the forms of marriage first.

In the end, I don't think this is about religion. It's about whatever religious, philosophical, or cultural excuses people can muster to try and defend what is indefensible.

 

[outhouse]

In the end, I don't think this is about religion. It's about whatever religious, philosophical, or cultural excuses people can muster to try and defend what is indefensible.

Dont agree.

When their prophet is 53 and viewed as being with a child, it makes it OK and justified, as noted by this thread at how many are standing up for the practice.

Its not like were talking about a isolated view. To them it is perfectly acceptable and justified through their religious beliefs with their hero setting the moral standards .

 

[outhouse]

Please stop. Oh my God.

Thank you for being understanding and a shining light for the religion.

No offense has ever been directed towards you.

 

[shalom-sobal]

First of all, I highly doubt that Emma Watson was having any sex while filming Harry Potter.

Second of all, most of the rest of those folks are hardly role models. Celebrities, in fact, are more often known for making disastrously bad choices than good ones.

Third of all, there is a huge difference between a 13-15 year old choosing to have sex with another teenager around the same age, and a ten year old girl being sold off to marry an adult man, or even an older teenager.

Third of all, the problem isn't necessarily Islam, but certain interpretations of it; along with certain cultural practices of some non-Muslim cultures also, which foster the idea that it might ever be okay to rape children as long as they have been forced to go through the forms of marriage first.

In the end, I don't think this is about religion. It's about whatever religious, philosophical, or cultural excuses people can muster to try and defend what is indefensible.

Maybe Emma didnt

But what about the rest

People have the right to chose the way they want to live

No one have right to talk on their behalf

Or what do you think


I want to clarify one thing

Marrying women 15 is not obligatory in islam

It is people choice

If women said she don't want to marry
No one can force her
If it happened there marriage will not be accepted according to islam


I wish every thing become clear


Prophet mohammad peace be upon him
Did not enter the room of her wife ayesha
Untill she become adult

The second thing is that ayesha radi allah anha
Loved prophet

And she was jealous when prophet talk about
His dead wife khadijah

Her love was extraordinary

Instead of critising you have to watch movie called jansi ki rani

King who marry child and how she love her husband
In away she can't imagine her life without him

 

[outhouse]

Maybe Emma didnt

But what about the rest

People have the right to chose the way they want to live

No one have right to talk on their behalf

Or what do you think

I think your trying to make miserable excuses due to others actions to justify your belief, or try and hide your belief under the errors of others.