Would You Want to be in Heaven if People You Loved were in Hell?

[A Vestigial Mote]

The question seems artificial and most unlikely to arise. It appears inconceivable that one would be able to love somebody who was going to hell.

I'm not sure I understand this. Thinking in terms of an "average" interpretation of what gets one into "hell," let's say somewhere down the line my son commits murder and ends up pointed in that direction. Do I stop loving my son when he commits the act of murder? How could I? I understand what he has done is a wrong to another person, and yet I love him. Where is the problem in this, do you feel?

Another thing to note is that this all very much hinges on what the criteria is for getting sent to hell. If it takes murder, then that's one thing that might make this only somewhat debatable (see paragraph above for the conundrum here), but if all it takes is non-belief in the presiding deity, well then we very likely all love people who are going to hell, wouldn't you say?

 

[exchemist]

I'm not sure I understand this. Thinking in terms of an "average" interpretation of what gets one into "hell," let's say somewhere down the line my son commits murder and ends up pointed in that direction. Do I stop loving my son when he commits the act of murder? How could I? I understand what he has done is a wrong to another person, and yet I love him. Where is the problem in this, do you feel?

Another thing to note is that this all very much hinges on what the criteria is for getting sent to hell. If it takes murder, then that's one thing that might make this only somewhat debatable (see paragraph above for the conundrum here), but if all it takes is non-belief in the presiding deity, well then we very likely all love people who are going to hell, wouldn't you say?

No.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

No.

You very obviously didn't think much about this. I doubt you thought much before crafting your original reply. Kudos for the time you must have saved in doing so.

 

[exchemist]

You very obviously didn't think much about this. I doubt you thought much before crafting your original reply. Kudos for the time you must have saved in doing so.

OK. A slightly fuller answer, then.

Nobody has any idea who, if anybody, goes to hell, traditional doctrinal formulae notwithstanding. The pope recently speculated that hell might even be empty. Many people who believe in a loving God will find it hard to imagine such a God would condemn to hell a person that they themselves are able to love.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

OK. A slightly fuller answer, then.

Thank you.

Nobody has any idea who, if anybody, goes to hell

Which means it could be nobody, or could be everybody. How helpful.

 

[exchemist]

Thank you.


Which means it could be nobody, or could be everybody. How helpful.

Exactly. Which is why I do not spend much time on topics like this.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Exactly. Which is why I do not spend much time on topics like this.

However, I find it extremely strange that you seemed to have some idea of who, with some degree of discerning, might end up being slated for hell, since you somehow knew that they were people you could not possibly love.

 

[exchemist]

However, I find it extremely strange that you seemed to have some idea of who, with some degree of discerning, might end up being slated for hell, since you somehow knew that they were people you could not possibly love.

Fair enough.

 

[taykair]

I suppose one of the main reasons I left Christianity is because I felt uncomfortable worshipping a God who didn't seem to be as moral as the humans He created. I have met lots of people who believe that it is right to punish a wayward child -- and so do I -- but I don't know anyone who would be so monstorous as to torture their child constantly and unmercifully. (Yes. There are a few sick, twisted humans out there who would behave in such an awful way, but they are the exception.)

And yet, the punishment for our disobedience is (according to many Christian denominations) eternal punishment in Hell. When I was a Christian, I accepted this because I believed that, although God was perfectly merciful, He must also be perfectly just -- and therefore must punish His children who stray. "Spare the rod and spoil the child". That kind of thing.

However, when we talk about God-level punishments (roasting someone eternally, for instance) we can easily see that the punishment is totally out of proportion to the offence committed, and that hardly any human being would even consider such torture for even their worst enemy, much less an errant child.

To answer Sunstone's question: No. Heaven would not be Heaven for me if I knew someone else was suffering. And this must lead me to wonder: How could Heaven be Heaven for God, if He is constantly aware of His children in Hell?

 

[Sunstone]

How could Heaven be Heaven for God, if He is constantly aware of His children in Hell?

That question deserves it's own "winner" rating.

 

[YoursTrue]

Be careful not to debate in a discussion thread, @Deeje. It is fine to state your opinion. It is even fine to compare your opinion with someone else's opinion for the purposes of clarification. But it is not fine to state that the other person is wrong, for doing so crosses the line into debating.

Yes, but the problem is: what IS hell? And to entertain such a question, one would. or should need to understand what hell are they referring to, as if it's a legitimate question.

 

[YoursTrue]

I suppose one of the main reasons I left Christianity is because I felt uncomfortable worshipping a God who didn't seem to be as moral as the humans He created. I have met lots of people who believe that it is right to punish a wayward child -- and so do I -- but I don't know anyone who would be so monstorous as to torture their child constantly and unmercifully. (Yes. There are a few sick, twisted humans out there who would behave in such an awful way, but they are the exception.)

And yet, the punishment for our disobedience is (according to many Christian denominations) eternal punishment in Hell. When I was a Christian, I accepted this because I believed that, although God was perfectly merciful, He must also be perfectly just -- and therefore must punish His children who stray. "Spare the rod and spoil the child". That kind of thing.

However, when we talk about God-level punishments (roasting someone eternally, for instance) we can easily see that the punishment is totally out of proportion to the offence committed, and that hardly any human being would even consider such torture for even their worst enemy, much less an errant child.

To answer Sunstone's question: No. Heaven would not be Heaven for me if I knew someone else was suffering. And this must lead me to wonder: How could Heaven be Heaven for God, if He is constantly aware of His children in Hell?

A wayward child is one that a parent would hope to take back, or at least put him on the better course, wouldn't you think? I would agree that heaven would not be heavenly if they knew someone was suffering eternally.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I have a Christian friend who is convinced his lesbian sister will end up in Hell, regardless of how she lives her life apart from that.
The same friend is convinced I'll go to Hell based on my atheism.

He's not the first Christian friend I've had who followed either position.

 

[Sunstone]

***MOD POST***

Please take care to avoid debate in this thread.

Stating or representing the positions and views of another poster as wrong constitutes "debate" and is a rules violation. Stating your own views without specific reference to another poster's views does NOT constitute "debate", and is NOT a rules violation.​

 

[YoursTrue]

I suppose one of the main reasons I left Christianity is because I felt uncomfortable worshipping a God who didn't seem to be as moral as the humans He created. I have met lots of people who believe that it is right to punish a wayward child -- and so do I -- but I don't know anyone who would be so monstorous as to torture their child constantly and unmercifully. (Yes. There are a few sick, twisted humans out there who would behave in such an awful way, but they are the exception.)

And yet, the punishment for our disobedience is (according to many Christian denominations) eternal punishment in Hell. When I was a Christian, I accepted this because I believed that, although God was perfectly merciful, He must also be perfectly just -- and therefore must punish His children who stray. "Spare the rod and spoil the child". That kind of thing.

However, when we talk about God-level punishments (roasting someone eternally, for instance) we can easily see that the punishment is totally out of proportion to the offence committed, and that hardly any human being would even consider such torture for even their worst enemy, much less an errant child.

To answer Sunstone's question: No. Heaven would not be Heaven for me if I knew someone else was suffering. And this must lead me to wonder: How could Heaven be Heaven for God, if He is constantly aware of His children in Hell?

I agree that roasting someone eternally does not balance (is out of proportion, as you said) for an offence, whatever offence that might be. When one does not spare the rod, let's say as an example, in general, a parent does not constantly 24 hours a day always beat the child. Do you think a parent that would think of doing such a thing, imo, understands what the scripture means?

 

[exchemist]

I have a Christian friend who is convinced his lesbian sister will end up in Hell, regardless of how she lives her life apart from that.
The same friend is convinced I'll go to Hell based on my atheism.

He's not the first Christian friend I've had who followed either position.

......and Trump claims to think hydroxychloroquine protects him from SARS-CoV-2.

The lesbian thing is particularly silly, since there is nothing in the bible about it. Atheism is more of an issue, since it represents a deliberate rejection of the idea of God. But it still seems absurd to a lot Christians to imagine that atheists automatically go to hell.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

......and Trump claims to think hydroxychloroquine protects him from SARS-CoV-2.

The lesbian thing is particularly silly, since there is nothing in the bible about it. Atheism is more of an issue, since it represents a deliberate rejection of the idea of God. But it still seems absurd to a lot Christians to imagine that atheists automatically go to hell.

Yep, but I guess I was addressing a point made around people struggling to believe a loved on could be sent to Hell.
I think it is possible to love someone, and worship a God who will send that someone to Hell. It isn't something I personally believe in, and I think there are issues with that, but some people both honestly believe and worship in this type of God, and love people He'd send to a literal Hell.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I have something of a problem with this question as I do not see heaven or hell as places at all, any more than I see God as a person. The whole idea of there being a heaven somewhere in the universe and a hell somewhere in the centre of the earth where the devil lives, and plays host to all the evil dead.ot the universe is somewhat ludicrous.

I see God heaven and all the departed more as in a nebulous state of being and not as individuals at all. Nor in any way subject to time and space. Such that in many respects we are both here and there right now.

I do not recognise hell at all.

 

[Windwalker]

The comparison to a 'drug' is yours not mine. So, argue with yourself over that.

Forgive me, but that is how it strikes me. Things will be so blissful in heaven, that what would normally seem horrifying and unbearable, will feel okay. Drugs have that same effect, to anesthetize us to pain.

What I have said is, for a Christian, that things change when you die. Both location wise and inward wise. You experience a complete severance from that which you had with Adam, which affect your affections.

So the love you had for others in this life will be severed once you go to heaven? Our love for others gets severed completely, amputated and the wound cauterized? I don't think I can quite fathom that actually. What make this life good and beautiful, is love for others. That was the core teaching of Jesus, to love others as yourself. That's how I understand it anyway.

Your ties to that which you had on earth are broken.

So the bonds of love will be broken by God for us so we won't feel them anymore?

You see and understand more clearly and perfectly your experiences on earth. It is not a 'drug'. It is an understanding of reality with God.

I understand that Reality. But cutting off our love is the exact opposite of that, based upon my experience. It actually increases our love and our capacities for compassion. It becomes larger and more expansive, not severed and broken off.

If a family member of mine rejects Christ, goes to Hell, in that day, I will not be burdened with grief over it. I will understand it and why it was just and necessary. My affections and bonds are completely at that time with my brothers and sisters in Christ. (Matt. 13:50)

So you are saying that while the thought of your parents who loved you and raised you being sent to hell may disturb you now, you'll be okay with it once God enters your heart and illuminates your mind in heaven? No, I can't believe that for a minute.

Jesus Christ could experience this while on this earth as He was without sin and in perfect fellowship with God. Did He love His mother Mary? Yes. But not to the extent that it affected Him with God. (John 2:4) "Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee?"

So, you're saying he'd have been okay with his mother and father being tortured in hell? That he would express frustration with her, like any child does with his parents from time to time, is on the same order of her soul being thrown into flames for eternity, and that he'd be fine with that? At you own worst with your parents, would you be okay with them being kidnapped and tortured by terrorists?

And He could just as easily reject all His earthly relations based only on the human connection. (Matt. 13:46-50) How could He do that? Because He was in perfect relationship with God. His affections were rightly directed. And in that day the Christians, and the believers will be also. I believe we will always have the memory. But we will know as we are known, by God.

So "Perfect love casts out all sinners", is the takeaway here?

Think of the most evil person you can. You can use Hitler if you like, everyone else does. Stalin is a good pick. But there are many others. Did anyone ever love them? Sure they did. Does that love negate the evil they did? Did Adam and Eve love Cain? Of course they did. Their love for Cain doesn't change what Cain was. God knew, but Adam and Eve didn't. But in that day, Adam and Eve will be in perfect agreement with God with no grief or burden.

Good-Ole-Rebel

I think to equate your parents shortcommings in life with Adolph Hitler and Joseph Stalin's murderous rampangings, is something you may try to tell yourself they are comparable to to justify the idea of them going to hell, but I don't believe you believe that in your heart.

The reason I say that, is because I used to try to use that same "logic argument" when I was a fundamentalist, thinking about my parents in hell because they wouldn't accept the fundamentalist beliefs and doctrines I was trying to sell them. It didn't work for me. Love won out. Love saved me.

 

[syo]

Would you want to be in heaven if people you loved were in hell?

When we die, we reincarnate.

Christian heaven and hell are fakes.