• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Would You Want to be in Heaven if People You Loved were in Hell?

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
PLEASE NOTE: This is a discussion thread, not a debate thread. State your views. Provide your reasons for them. Ask respectful questions of other posters. Discuss your views with them. Even compare and contrast your views with other positions purely for the sake of clarification. BUT DO NOT ATTEMPT TO PROVE OTHER POSITIONS FALSE OR WRONG! Moreover, please report to the Mods any posts that engage in debate, or attempt to.​



The OP is optional because it doesn't really add anything to understanding the questions. Skip to the questions at the bottom if you don't want to read it.



"[Go to] Heaven for the climate, and Hell for [the] society." -- Mark Twain​


My mom was a Christian. She was also born in 1918, and she was decidedly 'Old School'. Old School as in she had her suspicions that even Paul was a bit too nouveau and upstart for her taste.

Somehow mom reconciled her instinct for things ancient with her membership in a relatively new church. God's Own Christian Church, the Presbyterian Congregation of America, Scotland, and Heaven. And she was particularly enamored of the comfortably old fashioned Presbyterian Doctrine that only adults -- and never children -- were intellectually and emotionally mature enough to make a personally valid and binding decision to become Christians.

Hence, she forbade me and my two brothers from arriving at any firm conclusions about whether God existed, whether Jesus was his son and humanity's savior, whether we wanted to become Christians, etc. -- she forbade us from making those decisions until we had -- to paraphrase her -- "arrived at a state of intellectual and emotional development when such decisions will no longer be meaningless."

In short, children were just too immature to make binding commitments. Period. Full Stop.

I was a rather dutiful lad in some ways, and I never, ever, even once challenged my mother's authority nor her rule against my arriving at any firm convictions and/or commitments. I always took care to think in purely provisional terms about religion through-out the whole of my childhood. Always. Except for that one time.

The time I became a Christian.

It happened in middle school. Two young, twenty-something missionaries from Tennessee arrived in our small Illinois town to save as many of us as possible. They decided to focus their efforts on saving the young people, and they rented a hall above a hardware store, decorated it, furbished it with tables and chairs, installed a concessions counter, and named the hall, "The Upper Room".

A kid magnet if there ever was one, since the town was too small for there to be many other places for middle school and high school kids to go in the evenings. The Upper Room was packed evening after evening from the week it opened onward.

One night, I got into a conversation with Lindsey. Lindsey was a year older than me, a pastor's son, and widely known to be a brilliant student who had never earned less than an A for any course he'd taken since first grade. He had studied C. S. Lewis and he knew well how to present the case for Christianity. It only took me three hours to forget all about mom and begin seriously entertaining the notion of converting.

I took his arguments home with me and thought about them for days. I even elaborated upon them to make them as tough as possible -- just to be sure they could stand up no matter how they were assailed. In the end, I decided Lindsey's conclusion that Christianity was the sole true religion simply could not be defeated.

Almost immediately after my conversion, I discovered that Judy -- the Judy -- was already a Christian! She was brainy, beautiful, and artistic. Three things I have always found irresistible in women. Three things almost ranking up there with a propensity to dance naked. I'd had a crush on Judy since third grade, and the moment I learned she was a fervent Christian, I set myself upon becoming just as fervent as she.

It all of it came tumbling down a month later. All of it. And in the course of a single night.

By then, my family knew of my conversion. None of them -- not even my mother -- tried to oppose me. I suppose she must have harbored secret reservations about my making such a youthful decision, but if she did, she kept them to herself.

Then one night, I decided I would proselytize my family at our dinner table. After all, I thought I knew what was best for them.

The episode came to an end when my younger brother posed the question, "What if you get to heaven only to discover the rest of us are in hell?"

That stopped me in my tracks. I had no answer for him. None. And I didn't get to sleep that night until just before dawn. Instead, I lay awake running his point through my head, trying to frame it in the toughest way possible, and slamming into one wall after the other. I could find no way around his thought that did not smack to me of BS, of kidding myself.

In the end, I felt forced to this conclusion: If it was true that my family would end up in hell and I in heaven, then I must refuse heaven in order to be with them in hell -- for I would be incapable of tolerating heaven if they were suffering in hell. To be sure, I still believed in Christianity. I wholly believed it was true. It was just that I wanted nothing to do with it, if having anything to do with it would lead to my family in hell and me in heaven.

Naturally, I prayed to God, sincerely thanked him for his grace and offer of salvation, told him of my thoughts on the matter, and wished him a fond adieu (if it was true my family might end up in hell with me in heaven). Or something very much along those lines. It's been ages since that night, and I have no doubt forgotten the details. The next day, I apologized to my mom and told her I would suspend judgment until I was properly mature enough to make a genuinely meaningful decision. She asked me what had changed my mind.

"Stuff", I said. "Nothing worth talking about." Terse. But what can you expect from a 13 year-old.


Would you want to be in heaven if people you loved were in hell?

Would you want to be in heaven if all the dancing girls were in hell? That is to say, would you want to be in heaven if anyone -- anyone at all, regardless of your relationship to them -- were in hell?





 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
I've wondered how families handle the death of a member who, by the standards of their religion, was hell bound. For example, do they toss away all the photos, etc. and never speak of them again? Do they try to let go of the love and memories? Or do they still cherish all of that while lamenting the fact that (according to their beliefs) their loved one is forever in hell?
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Yeah I hear ya! Swig!, That's a depressing thought. My mother is the sweetest most loving person on her way to eternal death! Or worse, the lake of fire! That's what she gets for being the most faithful mother, and wife to her family. Selfless love without belief. God forbid she misinterpret a few words of doctrine, and only listen to positive words of encouragement!

Heaven, or paradise is loaded with pencil headed, legalistic, students of extreme self interest who never knew a day of love from others I'm guessing.
 

Electra

Active Member
I do not believe in a eternal fixed afterlife so my following answer is simply theatrics.

I like the question. "If I can not leave heaven, isn't it just a fancy prison?" I understand the temporary fixation on Earth but an ~eternity, in a ~perfect place? that sounds like hell to me. lol

There are aeons i have been in different places then those i love but once i have loved someone, i engulf and we are never apart, not even for a moment, i feel there dancing feet tip tapping in my heart.

Love is never a self-less act, as love from self to self is a bridge.


Would you want to be in heaven if people you loved were in hell?

Short answer, no.

The fact that i am on Earth right now proves to me that i have already made a choice to sacrifice my personal comforts for Earth.

Would you want to be in heaven if hell had all the dancing girls?

And what if hell had all the devils lettuce? :0

That is, if anyone -- regardless of your relationship to them -- were in hell?


If this was a hell that was stagnate and torturous, i guess i would have to come cause some trouble. Ave Chaos, and shake that snowglobe, lol.

 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
I'm drinking Schlitz to have a bitter, bad taste in my mouth to match my mood. :D
 

Emsy

Member
I've wondered how families handle the death of a member who, by the standards of their religion, was hell bound. For example, do they toss away all the photos, etc. and never speak of them again? Do they try to let go of the love and memories? Or do they still cherish all of that while lamenting the fact that (according to their beliefs) their loved one is forever in hell?

In many cultures, family members who bring dishonor to their family due to religious transgressions are simply murdered and presumed to go to eternal damnation (i.e. many Islamic cultures). In those cases, I would presume that they would be relatively cool with it compared with people from Western cultures - Western cultures, I presume and have seen firsthand, are more likely to euphemize the plight of dead loved ones who have had a less than reputable moral history attached to them.

There's supposedly a correlation between cultures that have excellent standards for general hygiene and sanitation and a sanctified regard for human life (particularly the lives of loved ones); conversely, cultures located in geographical locations that have poorer standards of hygiene and sanitation are more likely to lump poor or breached religious/traditional morals and ethics together and deal with them in a similar way.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
In many cultures, family members who bring dishonor to their family due to religious transgressions are simply murdered and presumed to go to eternal damnation (i.e. many Islamic cultures). In those cases, I would presume that they would be relatively cool with it compared with people from Western cultures - Western cultures, I presume and have seen firsthand, are more likely to euphemize the plight of dead loved ones who have had a less than reputable moral history attached to them.

There's supposedly a correlation between cultures that have excellent standards for general hygiene and sanitation and a sanctified regard for human life (particularly the lives of loved ones); conversely, cultures located in geographical locations that have poorer standards of hygiene and sanitation are more likely to lump poor or breached religious/traditional morals and ethics together and deal with them in a similar way.

I'm curious how societies who have "honor killings" as part of their culture define honor, as murdering your own family - especially children - obviously seems far more dishonorable than whatever arbitrary slight for which they were killed. It also seems to me that such families lacked a strong bond and a sense of love and empathy to begin with.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Would you want to be in heaven if people you loved were in hell?

That depends on what "hell" actually is. There are a few words that are translated "hell" in the Bible...."sheol", "Hades" "tartarus" and "gehenna".....then there is "the lake of fire"....but none of these is a place of eternal fiery torment.

"Sheol" is the Hebrew word translated "hell" in many Bibles, but according to Strongs, "sheol" is the place where all the dead go.....it is nothing more terrifying than the grave, as the Tanakh states.
In Ecclesiastes 9:10 King Solomon wrote....
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for their remembrance is forgotten.
6 Also their love, as well as their hate, as well as their provocation has already been lost, and they have no more share forever in all that is done under the sun. . . . .
10 Whatever your hand attains to do [as long as you are] with your strength, do; for there is neither deed nor reckoning, neither knowledge nor wisdom in the grave [sheol], where you are going."


It is a place of complete inactivity and unconsciousness. Jesus said that the dead "sleep" in the grave (like Lazarus. John 11:11-14) and that he will awaken both the 'righteous and the unrighteous' to resume their lives here on earth. (John 5:28-29) He calls the dead from their graves, not from heaven or hell.
"Hades" gives up its dead. (Revelation 20:13)

Since eternal life is promised only to the righteous, wouldn't God need wicked people in hell to be alive in order to torment them forever? If you are unconscious, you can't be tormented by anyone. :shrug:

Would you want to be in heaven if hell had all the dancing girls? That is, if anyone -- regardless of your relationship to them -- were in hell?

Since everyone who has died is in the Bible's "hell", that is a pretty pointless question IMV. o_O

BTW your Mom was right about children not being held accountable till the age where they can make an informed decision about becoming a disciple of Christ.
According to 1 Corinthians 7:12-14..."If any brother has an unbelieving wife and she is agreeable to staying with him, let him not leave her; 13 and if a woman has an unbelieving husband and he is agreeable to staying with her, let her not leave her husband. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified in relation to his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified in relation to the brother; otherwise, your children would be unclean, but now they are holy."

A child is judged on the merits of their believing parent(s) which if you think about it, was incentive to make sure that they were taught well. If you were judged as unworthy, then so were your kids. This is why no children survived the flood.

Deuteronomy 6:6-7 states...
"And these words, which I command you this day, shall be upon your heart.
7And you shall teach them to your sons and speak of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk on the way, and when you lie down and when you rise up."

So, it was incumbent upon parents to educate their children in God's ways, so that when they reached the age of accountability, they were equipped to make an informed decision. Ignorance never equipped anyone for anything this important in their lives.


That is my perspective on this question.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I'm curious how societies who have "honor killings" as part of their culture define honor, as murdering your own family - especially children - obviously seems far more dishonorable than whatever arbitrary slight for which they were killed. It also seems to me that such families lacked a strong bond and a sense of love and empathy to begin with.

That's an excellent question! Isn't it curious that some folks will sacrifice nearly anything to a belief or to an ideology? I think -- I don't know, but I think -- that when humans do such a thing, there is usually a desire to belong to some greater group involved. That is, a political party, a religion, or at least some kind of larger, 'more important' group. A group that sanctions the murder. I don't mean there is always such a desire. Just more often than not.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Since I don't believe in that kind of heaven and hell, the question has no meaning to me. But if heaven and hell were real, the words of the great Sufi woman, Rabia of Basra, speak to me:

O my Lord, if I worship You from fear of Hell, burn me in Hell; and if I worship You from hope of Paradise, exclude me from Paradise. But if I worship You for Your own sake, do not withhold from me Your Eternal Beauty.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
That depends on what "hell" actually is. There are a few words that are translated "hell" in the Bible...."sheol", "Hades" "tartarus" and "gehenna".....then there is "the lake of fire"....but none of these is a place of eternal fiery torment.

"Sheol" is the Hebrew word translated "hell" in many Bibles, but according to Strongs, "sheol" is the place where all the dead go.....it is nothing more terrifying than the grave, as the Tanakh states.
In Ecclesiastes 9:10 King Solomon wrote....
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for their remembrance is forgotten.
6 Also their love, as well as their hate, as well as their provocation has already been lost, and they have no more share forever in all that is done under the sun. . . . .
10 Whatever your hand attains to do [as long as you are] with your strength, do; for there is neither deed nor reckoning, neither knowledge nor wisdom in the grave [sheol], where you are going."


It is a place of complete inactivity and unconsciousness. Jesus said that the dead "sleep" in the grave (like Lazarus. John 11:11-14) and that he will awaken both the 'righteous and the unrighteous' to resume their lives here on earth. (John 5:28-29) He calls the dead from their graves, not from heaven or hell.
"Hades" gives up its dead. (Revelation 20:13)

Since eternal life is promised only to the righteous, wouldn't God need wicked people in hell to be alive in order to torment them forever? If you are unconscious, you can't be tormented by anyone. :shrug:



Since everyone who has died is in the Bible's "hell", that is a pretty pointless question IMV. o_O

BTW your Mom was right about children not being held accountable till the age where they can make an informed decision about becoming a disciple of Christ.
According to 1 Corinthians 7:12-14..."If any brother has an unbelieving wife and she is agreeable to staying with him, let him not leave her; 13 and if a woman has an unbelieving husband and he is agreeable to staying with her, let her not leave her husband. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified in relation to his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified in relation to the brother; otherwise, your children would be unclean, but now they are holy."

A child is judged on the merits of their believing parent(s) which if you think about it, was incentive to make sure that they were taught well. If you were judged as unworthy, then so were your kids. This is why no children survived the flood.

Deuteronomy 6:6-7 states...
"And these words, which I command you this day, shall be upon your heart.
7And you shall teach them to your sons and speak of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk on the way, and when you lie down and when you rise up."

So, it was incumbent upon parents to educate their children in God's ways, so that when they reached the age of accountability, they were equipped to make an informed decision. Ignorance never equipped anyone for anything this important in their lives.


That is my perspective on this question.

Be careful not to debate in a discussion thread, @Deeje. It is fine to state your opinion. It is even fine to compare your opinion with someone else's opinion for the purposes of clarification. But it is not fine to state that the other person is wrong, for doing so crosses the line into debating.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
When you get to be around my age, you keep forgetting the difference. :D

Heaven and hell is a great party topic. People may run for the exits, but I don't take it personally.

Seriously though it strikes a chord. You are very adept at telling a story, and add humor to it as well. It needs it. It was informing and entertaining. I especially related to the part about getting it all right, nice and foolproof, and then someone comes along and ruins the whole thing for you. I went through something similar.

For me the Christianity leaves a lasting impression on me til this day. I rationalized it, and was constantly exposed to the teachings. People had a way of making it really real for me when all I wanted to do was dismiss it for fable.

I had the same realization. People I already loved and admired in hell. That settled the matter right there, hands down.

I took my grandfather's position, he never thought about God that much until he was dying. He said, he would talk to God and iron everything out. He figured God was reasonable. I thought maybe he's right, if there was a God, why not a reasonable one. So I end up an atheist anyway.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
PLEASE NOTE: This is a discussion thread, not a debate thread. State your views. Provide your reasons for them. Ask respectful questions of other posters. Discuss your views with them. Even compare and contrast your views with other positions purely for the sake of clarification. BUT DO NOT ATTEMPT TO PROVE OTHER POSITIONS FALSE OR WRONG! Moreover, please report to the Mods any posts that engage in debate, or attempt to.​



The OP is optional because it doesn't really add anything to understanding the questions. Skip to the questions at the bottom if you don't want to read it.



"[Go to] Heaven for the climate, and Hell for [the] society." -- Mark Twain​


My mom was a Christian. She was also born in 1918, and she was decidedly 'Old School'. Old School as in she had her suspicions that even Paul was a bit too nouveau and upstart for her taste.

Somehow mom reconciled her instinct for things ancient with her membership in a relatively new church. God's Own Christian Church, the Presbyterian Congregation of America, Scotland, and Heaven. And she was particularly enamored of the comfortably old fashioned Presbyterian Doctrine that only adults -- and never children -- were intellectually and emotionally mature enough to make a personally valid and binding decision to become Christians.

Hence, she forbade me and my two brothers from arriving at any firm conclusions about whether God existed, whether Jesus was his son and humanity's savior, whether we wanted to become Christians, etc. -- she forbade us from making those decisions until we had -- to paraphrase her -- "arrived at a state of intellectual and emotional development when such decisions will no longer be meaningless."

In short, children were just too immature to make binding commitments. Period. Full Stop.

I was a rather dutiful lad in some ways, and I never, ever, even once challenged my mother's authority nor her rule against my arriving at any firm convictions and/or commitments. I always took care to think in purely provisional terms about religion through-out the whole of my childhood. Always. Except for that one time.

The time I became a Christian.

It happened in middle school. Two young, twenty-something missionaries from Tennessee arrived in our small Illinois town to save as many of us as possible. They decided to focus their efforts on saving the young people, and they rented a hall above a hardware store, decorated it, furbished it with tables and chairs, installed a concessions counter, and named the hall, "The Upper Room".

A kid magnet if there ever was one, since the town was too small for there to be many other places for middle school and high school kids to go in the evenings. The Upper Room was packed evening after evening from the week it opened onward.

One night, I got into a conversation with Lindsey. Lindsey was a year older than me, a pastor's son, and widely known to be a brilliant student who had never earned less than an A for any course he'd taken since first grade. He had studied C. S. Lewis and he knew well how to present the case for Christianity. It only took me three hours to forget all about mom and begin seriously entertaining the notion of converting.

I took his arguments home with me and thought about them for days. I even elaborated upon them to make them as tough as possible -- just to be sure they could stand up no matter how they were assailed. In the end, I decided Lindsey's conclusion that Christianity was the sole true religion simply could not be defeated.

Almost immediately after my conversion, I discovered that Judy -- the Judy -- was already a Christian! She was brainy, beautiful, and artistic. Three things I have always found irresistible in women. Three things almost ranking up there with a propensity to dance naked. I'd had a crush on Judy since third grade, and the moment I learned she was a fervent Christian, I set myself upon becoming just as fervent as she.

It all of it came tumbling down a month later. All of it. And in the course of a single night.

By then, my family knew of my conversion. None of them -- not even my mother -- tried to oppose me. I suppose she must have harbored secret reservations about my making such a youthful decision, but if she did, she kept them to herself.

Then one night, I decided I would proselytize my family at our dinner table. After all, I thought I knew what was best for them.

The episode came to an end when my younger brother posed the question, "What if you get to heaven only to discover the rest of us are in hell?"

That stopped me in my tracks. I had no answer for him. None. And I didn't get to sleep that night until just before dawn. Instead, I lay awake running his point through my head, trying to frame it in the toughest way possible, and slamming into one wall after the other. I could find no way around his thought that did not smack to me of BS, of kidding myself.

In the end, I felt forced to this conclusion: If it was true that my family would end up in hell and I in heaven, then I must refuse heaven in order to be with them in hell -- for I would be incapable of tolerating heaven if they were suffering in hell. To be sure, I still believed in Christianity. I wholly believed it was true. It was just that I wanted nothing to do with it, if having anything to do with it would lead to my family in hell and me in heaven.

Naturally, I prayed to God, sincerely thanked him for his grace and offer of salvation, told him of my thoughts on the matter, and wished him a fond adieu (if it was true my family might end up in hell with me in heaven). Or something very much along those lines. It's been ages since that night, and I have no doubt forgotten the details. The next day, I apologized to my mom and told her I would suspend judgment until I was properly mature enough to make a genuinely meaningful decision. She asked me what had changed my mind.

"Stuff", I said. "Nothing worth talking about." Terse. But what can you expect from a 13 year-old.


Would you want to be in heaven if people you loved were in hell?

Would you want to be in heaven if hell had all the dancing girls? That is, if anyone -- regardless of your relationship to them -- were in hell?





Personally I do not believe we remember anyone we were "related to" or were friends within this life when or if we gain access to heaven, so in itself, the Question in the OP would not count.
And i would think we would all see it differently if we were to gain access to heaven because we would be on different wisdom levels and only see the truth of the level we were at.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Heaven and hell is a great party topic. People may run for the exits, but I don't take it personally.

That cracked me up! Thank you!

Seriously though it strikes a chord.

Yes, I read about your mother. You have my empathy. Even if one does not accept the reality of hell, there is something profoundly disturbing in the thought that one's mother would be sent off to be tortured. I mean, even if -- by some weird chance -- someone wrote and published a fictional novel in which your mother appeared as a character with a horrible fate, it would be upsetting. Even then it would come across as obnoxious, ugly, and repulsive.

I took my grandfather's position, he never thought about God that much until he was dying. He said, he would talk to God and iron everything out. He figured God was reasonable. I thought maybe he's right, if there was a God, why not a reasonable one. So I end up an atheist anyway.

I can't imagine a god capable of making a world in which the laws of nature are so logical that they can be expressed mathematically suddenly turning into a petty narcissist who inflicts eternal torment on people for no greater offense than failing to believe in him. It makes less sense than if Einstein had suddenly taken to burning alive cats because they could not correctly sum two and two.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Come to think of it I don't resent sincere Christianity. I mean they care enough to try to save you from doom.

It's the legalistic pencil heads that could care less and try to dazzle people with doctrine that I begrudge. Or other forms of it like that!
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Wow. That was a good read. You write good.

Thank you. It's very kind of you to say so.


The Bible doesn't teach hell exists. It teaches that when a person dies he ceases to exist. To God it is like a sleep as he can raise the dead back to life which he will do in the future. I would have responded to them that they needn't worry about hell, as a God of love would not create such a place. But that both good and bad people will be resurrected back to life in paradise.

Going to heaven is a nice idea, but not really a Biblical teaching but for a small group of people. Nowhere in the Hebrew Scriptures is the hope of heavenly life mentioned. And in the Greek Scriptures Jesus did promise his apostles they would be with him in heaven, and letters were written to anointed Christians that are to receive heavenly life if they remain faithful to death. But that is an extremely small minority of people compared to everyone alive today and who has ever lived (a total of 144,000 will go to heaven and that is to rule as kings and priests over the earth).

In any event Jesus said that no one was worthy of him if they had greater affection for mother or father than for him. Not literally of course, but meaning if they did not put Jesus' kingdom in first place. He also said that there is no one that leaves father and mother, brother or sister for the truth that will not receive a hundredfold in this system and everlasting life.

Whoever has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and whoever has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me.-Matthew 10:37.

And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands for the sake of my name will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit everlasting life.-Matthew 19:29.

Your views struck me as quite interesting, well thought-out, and well-presented. Thank you for that. I enjoyed reading them. But I should mention that, as someone who is relatively new to RF, you might not yet be aware of Rule 8, the rule against proselytizing. I urge you to avoid running afoul of that rule by editing your post ASAP.

The 'trick' is to use qualifiers such as, "In my opinion..." and "I believe that...". So long as you are clearly stating things as your own views and opinions, you are not proselytizing in the eyes of the mods. But if you give the appearance of asserting your views as unquestionable or infallible facts, then the mods are likely to rule you out of bounds.

The mods do not usually go looking for posts that are proselytizing. More often, other members (including some very religious ones) will report those posts they see as doing so. I think that's an indication of how many people take offense from it. So, if you want folks to read your words, rather than just report them, it would seen best to qualify them as your own opinion.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
It's the legalistic pencil heads that could care less and try to dazzle people with doctrine that I begrudge. Or other forms of it like that!

An old friend of mine -- now deceased -- was kind of a "legalistic pencil head" (as you call them) when he and I met. Somehow we made friends despite our differences. A few years into our friendship, he told me how he had once had so much anger in him about people disagreeing with him that he enjoyed going to sleep at night thinking of how they would burn in hell someday. However, he had over time come to see his malice for what it was and he now went to sleep at night worried and fervently praying for the very same people! Just goes to show, people do change.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
That cracked me up! Thank you!



Yes, I read about your mother. You have my empathy. Even if one does not accept the reality of hell, there is something profoundly disturbing in the thought that one's mother would be sent off to be tortured. I mean, even if -- by some weird chance -- someone wrote and published a fictional novel in which your mother appeared as a character with a horrible fate, it would be upsetting. Even then it would come across as obnoxious, ugly, and repulsive.



I can't imagine a god capable of making a world in which the laws of nature are so logical that they can be expressed mathematically suddenly turning into a petty narcissist who inflicts eternal torment on people for no greater offense that failing to believe in him. It makes less sense than if Einstein had suddenly taken to burning alive cats because they could not correctly sum two and two.

You nailed it on the head with that Einstein example. Only it's a lot more difficult then two and two.

What's so irritating to me is that the road is so obviously true to Christians, and there is really nothing simple about it.
It's mental gymnastics that I don't even comprehend in any way that I consider sensible.
 
Top