Would you marry a gay couple...

[savagewind]

Who told you that? How twisted.

We do not actively protect anyone who breaks God's laws. We are the ones who disfellowship unrepentant wrongdoers, remember? We cop all sorts of flack for that but it is entirely biblical.....so it appears that we are damned if we do, or damned if we don't. We will help anyone who wants or needs help but we will not continue to enable those who don't put in the effort to effect real change in their lives.

If you are speaking about times past, I have already responded to that on other threads. In the past it was a nightmare to prosecute pedophiles through the court system. It was often the word of the victim over the word of the abuser. Lawyer for the accused often made prosecution worse for the victim than the original offense. No wonder it was suggested that the victim let it be. These days there is protection for the victim...as it should be. Our elders are not the police.

To say things like you have in your response only demonstrates an attitude to believe whatever you are told with little regard for the truth.

Protects them is an exaggeration but it is true that the atmosphere in the congregations makes it easy for a person to commit secret sin. The Watchtower brainwashes believers into thinking that righteous people come to it. Obviously, a righteous person would never abuse a child on purpose. That, along with the two witness rule, makes it easy for pedophiles to act their evil out in the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses. The governing body make it ripe for them.

 

[Deeje]

Perhaps the two people who happen to be gay are also Christian. You don't speak for God. What you post here as well as below is your belief, which you're entitled to. But it does not mean that that is truly what God would agree with or no.

If one claims to be Christian, then they are bound by the teachings of the NT. A Christian cannot be a practicing homosexual....

1. Because they cannot be scripturally "married". All sex outside of marriage is deemed to be fornication. (Galatians 5:19-21)

2. Because Homosexual acts are deemed to be "obscene" from God's perspective. (Rom 1:24-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

3. Christ said that some would have to become "eunuchs" for the sake of the kingdom. (Matthew 19:12)

Not having sex is not life threatening. We are expected to sacrifice for Christ.....after all, he sacrificed himself for us.

The law states that you and those who are religious do not have the right to dictate what the word marriage means and how it is defined by that law. These things that you believe God would approve of or disapprove of are your beliefs. They may or may not be true or realistic. They certainly do not coincide with what I believe God wants for me. Where does that leave us? At an impasse. You believe your ideals, I do not. And until God speaks for God's self, either of us could be correct.

Unfortunately, God requires a decision about these things before he "speaks" to any of us. By the time he "speaks" it will be too late to change course. (Matthew 24:37-39)

 

[Deeje]

Protects them is an exaggeration but it is true that the atmosphere in the congregations makes it easy for a person to commit secret sin. The Watchtower brainwashes believers into thinking that righteous people come to it. Obviously, a righteous person would never abuse a child on purpose. That, along with the two witness rule, makes it easy for pedophiles to act their evil out in the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses. The governing body make it ripe for them.

Amazing how God is missing from all your conclusions. You honestly think God allows secret sins to go unnoticed? He reveals them when it is the right time to uncover them.
No one gets away with anything at the end of the day...."goats" masquerading as "sheep" will all be identified by the judge and dealt with.....no way to avoid it.

 

[savagewind]

Amazing how God is missing from all your conclusions. You honestly think God allows secret sins to go unnoticed? He reveals them when it is the right time to uncover them.
No one gets away with anything at the end of the day...."goats" masquerading as "sheep" will all be identified by the judge and dealt with.....no way to avoid it.

You have got to be kidding. A pedophile who is excused and who goes on to do it again to someone else who is trusting that Jehovah keeps the congregation clean IS JEHOVAH'S FAULT? I think that is a dangerous and obscene outlook.

It is a fact that sinners go unnoticed in the congregation but it isn't the congregation's fault. It is Jehovah's fault, according to you. And, who is twisted?

 

[savagewind]

I am sorry little girl that he did that to you. It must have been Jehovah's day off when he came in to stay. He might get around to removing that demon possessed man before he might to it again. Be a good girl and wait on Jehovah.

 

[savagewind]

I am sorry little girl that he did that to you. It must have been Jehovah's day off when he came in to stay. He might get around to removing that demon possessed man before he might to it again. Be a good girl and wait on Jehovah.

By the way, that might be an example of a REAL twist. OK?

 

[Deeje]

Once again, many people who happen to be gay are also Christian. Whether that is something you see as wrong per how you view or understand God is between you and God. You do not pass judgment nor tell another couple that what they believe is wrong. I belong to a Unity church near me which is refreshing as any and all faiths can join and any and all race, gender, creed and sexual orientation is not only welcomed by known to be loved by God. Are you really willing to say you speak for God or truly know the mind of God? No man knows the mind of God (1st Corinthians 2; 11).

Did you mean 1 Corinthians 2:14-16?
"But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually. 15 However, the spiritual man examines all things, but he himself is not examined by any man. 16 For “who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, so that he may instruct him?” But we do have the mind of Christ."

Having "the mind of Christ" means knowing the mind of God. In all the teachings of Jesus and the apostles, there are very strict rules about sexual sin. God's law to Israel was also very specific on these issues. We are not in a position to dictate to God what we want to believe about these things. He tells us exactly how he feels about them...we can acknowledge them or deny them....it doesn't change God's view of them.

 

[Deeje]

So you're saying that a man shouldn't always cleave to a wife?

Did you say a man must take a cleaver to his wife???

Matthew 19:3-6

 

[Deeje]

No one rules the world and imo, your views are the height of hubris.

1 John 5:19:
"We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one."

2 Corinthians 4:3, 4:
"If, in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through."

There is definitely an evil force at work in this world, and he is doing his best to mislead all of us.

God is the only one who can pass judgment on anyone. It is not up to you.

I don't recall saying that judgment was anything to do with me. I am only passing on what the scriptures teach. Only those who care about God's word will abide by it. I don't recall Jesus ever teaching that we could please ourselves about what we believe. (2 John 10, 11)

John 15:8-10:
"My Father is glorified in this, that you keep bearing much fruit and prove yourselves my disciples. 9 Just as the Father has loved me, so I have loved you; remain in my love. 10 If you observe my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have observed the commandments of the Father and remain in his love."

You certainly don't seem to express the views of one who lives and breathes the word of God.

In order to "live and breathe the word of God", you first of all have to know what that word teaches....sadly, I haven't seen much evidence in your posts that you have a great knowledge of scripture.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Yes, but they are actively protecting their reputation not the child abusers. Their reputation is everything to them and their reputation stands on a literal obeisance to the written word. So they do what they do to protect their imagined standing with Jehovah, not for promoting pedophilia.

I concede the point - your argument makes more sense than mine does.

 

[savagewind]

The belief that Jehovah CAN remove evildoers but doesn't do it before real harm is done is dreadful. @Deeje do realize what they have given you to eat?
They are teaching you to blaspheme the holy spirit.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Who told you that? How twisted.

We do not actively protect anyone who breaks God's laws. We are the ones who disfellowship unrepentant wrongdoers, remember? We cop all sorts of flack for that but it is entirely biblical.....so it appears that we are damned if we do, or damned if we don't.

No, you disfellowship people who see through the Watchtower's cult-like narrative - and these people lose their only stable support network (their family) in a lot of cases. All while not getting rid of those who are doing actual harm to members of the community.

We will help anyone who wants or needs help but we will not continue to enable those who don't put in the effort to effect real change in their lives.

That's exactly what the two-witness rule does: it prevents accusations being taken seriously - and the accuser must describe their case with the accused present which can be even more off-putting. If they don't have an independent witness - and no smart child abuser would risk abusing where there might be one - the accusations are dismissed out of hand. Any organisation which is serious about the welfare of its members would not treat their concerns in such a blasé manner.

If you are speaking about times past, I have already responded to that on other threads. In the past it was a nightmare to prosecute pedophiles through the court system. It was often the word of the victim over the word of the abuser. Lawyer for the accused often made prosecution worse for the victim than the original offense. No wonder it was suggested that the victim let it be.

More often than not the victim let it be because they figured nobody believed them at the time so why would anyone believe them now? That's why so many victims of child abuse by Catholic clerics are coming forward now after decades of silence - because we're starting to believe them.

These days there is protection for the victim...as it should be. Our elders are not the police.

No, they're not. The police are the police. And the Watchtower published guidelines which prohibit elders contacting the police if they're legally able to do so. At least one of the links I posted before explains that. You can't use times past as an excuse for your organisation's current enabling of paedophiles if things have changed - which they have. But still the Watchtower does it.

To say things like you have in your response only demonstrates an attitude to believe whatever you are told with little regard for the truth.

Regarding my accusation of the Watchtower actively protecting child abusers, I'll admit I was over-zealous and wrong. It's more accurate to say the Watchtower are passively protecting paedophiles while shoring up their own reputation.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Because it iraikely that people would mistake whether or not Jesus raised someone (actually three) from the dead. They are either making it up or it happened: there could be no "changing of recollection".

How would a casual witness confirm that the person being "raised from the dead" confirm that the person was actually dead?

How would the person writing the account confirm that the person who claims to be an eyewitness was recounting what he saw faithfully?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Did you say a man must take a cleaver to his wife???

Matthew 19:3-6

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Who told you that? How twisted.

We do not actively protect anyone who breaks God's laws. We are the ones who disfellowship unrepentant wrongdoers, remember? We cop all sorts of flack for that but it is entirely biblical.....so it appears that we are damned if we do, or damned if we don't.

... unless you did the responsible, ethical thing: report allegations of abuse to the police as soon as you hear about them.

 

[Thanda]

How would a casual witness confirm that the person being "raised from the dead" confirm that the person was actually dead?

How would the person writing the account confirm that the person who claims to be an eyewitness was recounting what he saw faithfully?

Now you are making assumptions: Who said the story was written from a casual witness. Did all three gospel writers have the same casual witness relate the story (or stories) to them?

Furthermore the religion of Jesus started during his time and his story was only written later. Clearly there must have done some extraordinary things which he did for people to be willing to lay down their lives talking about him. Therefore the preponderance of evidence points to the likelihood that he did do those extraordinary things written about him.

As for whether he was perhaps a magician, a master of illusions or a con artist - well that is a matter left to faith.

 

[JoStories]

In order to "live and breathe the word of God", you first of all have to know what that word teaches....sadly, I haven't seen much evidence in your posts that you have a great knowledge of scripture.

There is a very big difference between knowledge of scripture, which, I assure you, I do have, and one's opinion of the matter. Most often here, because I separate my teachings of theology from this forum, as this forum is for my relaxation and edification from other faiths POV. So I express my opinions which may or may not be the knowledge related to same. IMO, when one lives and breathes the word of God, it is very similar to what Buddhists do in that we strive to be kind and harm no one. This, for me, is what Christ taught on the Sermon of the Mount. Also, I note that in your posts, you rely very heavily on Paulian dogma and there are those who argue that Paul did not understand nor did he represent what Christ taught. This is not about whether or not he 'met' Christ, as that is a very different argument and one I am firmly against, in that I don't believe he met Christ and I don't believe any of what he wrote was in keeping with what Christ taught. Ask any two people what they glean from The Sermon and you are likely to get two very different answers. But study the Sermon from a historical, archeological, linguistic and a few others branches of study and you get a wide range of differing views on the subject. That is not what I am trying to do here.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Furthermore the religion of Jesus started during his time and his story was only written later. Clearly there must have done some extraordinary things which he did for people to be willing to lay down their lives talking about him. Therefore the preponderance of evidence points to the likelihood that he did do those extraordinary things written about him.

Are you willing to assume this as a general principle: if people martyr themselves for their religious leader, the leader's claims must be true?

 

[Thanda]

Are you willing to assume this as a general principle: if people martyr themselves for their religious leader, the leader's claims must be true?

No I am not saying Jesus is true because people died for him. I am claiming he must have done extraordinary things for people to be willing to do so. And therefore the stories about his miraculous works must be true. But whether those miraculous works were genuine or the work of a magician or con artist is left to the individual to decide.

My point is the claim that Jesus did no miraculous works and that stories of his works were inventions by later authors is a very weak one.

 

[savagewind]

... unless you did the responsible, ethical thing: report allegations of abuse to the police as soon as you hear about them.

Then they can investigate it. The brothers leave it to Jehovah to investigate it and take care of it.