Would you consider Christianity slavery?

[Rival]

So, a weak hell awaits someone with weak beliefs?

You misunderstood with pluspoints.

 

[Derek500]

Your answer doesn't make sense at all.

 

[Rival]

Your answer doesn't make sense at all.

Hell as a threat is useless if the person drops the belief in Christianity. So using Hell as a threat doesn't work to keep people Christian, because once a person has decided that Christianity is fals, Hell no longer works as a threat. So the person is still not a slave to Christianity.

 

[Derek500]

Hell as a threat is useless if the person drops the belief in Christianity. So using Hell as a threat doesn't work to keep people Christian, because once a person has decided that Christianity is fals, Hell no longer works as a threat. So the person is still not a slave to Christianity.

Actually, non-believers were threatened with hell on earth (no education, jobs, etc. ever allowed in the country) as well as hell in the afterlife (burn for ever and ever).

 

[Rival]

Actually, non-believers were threatened with hell on earth (no education, jobs, etc. ever allowed on earth) as well as hell in the afterlife (burn for ever and ever).

Yes but non-believers don't care because they don't believe it. That's the whole point.

And because punishing people eternally for wrong belief is stupid.

 

[Derek500]

Yes but non-believers don't care because they don't believe it. That's the whole point.

And because punishing people eternally for wrong belief is stupid.

That's the whole problem. Non-believers also have to work.

 

[Rival]

That's the whole problem. Non-believers also have to work.

And they do. They do it really well. My country is full of them and they do it just as well as anyone else.

 

[Augustus]

Would you consider Christianity slavery?

I mean, I'm an atheist, and I consider it slavery, since there are so many restrictions in the Christian bible; no offensive to Christians or anything, this is just my own opinion on the matter.

What's your opinion on the subject?

No. I assume many millions of people believe that they get more benefits than drawbacks from their worldview.

Also, many humans work best within structure, so 'restrictions' are not necessarily a bad thing, neither is a sense of purpose and direction.

It is possible that certain forms of belief in certain circumstances can cause an oppressive psychological condition, but in general it seems to serve most people just fine.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Belief in Hell is still a belief and if one fails to believe in Christianity, the Hell belief drops as well. It may be ingrained and hard to lose, but it is still ultimately up to the individual. I guess some folks are just weaker than others.

I’m not sure what you mean by “weaker.” I think we may have a miscommunication, because the only way I can make sense of what you’re saying is to take it as implying that belief in Hell is a weakness, but I’m guessing that this isn’t your intended meaning.

What I’m trying to say is that someone confronted with Christianity has a choice: either do what you’re told you need to do to be a Christian (or “saved,” or whatever else they’re saying one needs to do to avoid Hell) or not. If someone has been convinced that Hell is real, then their decision is being coerced.

Do you agree?

I think it’s interesting that Christian evangelism often takes advantage of this coercion:

- convince the non-believer of Hell (for themselves or their families)
- give the non-believer a way to avoid Hell
- let nature take its course

If someone made a real-life threat like this (e.g. “if you don’t do what I say, my boss is going to break your kneecaps”), they’d be committing a crime. When someone makes much worse - but supernatural - similar threats, they get a tax break. This seems disproportionate to me.

 

[Rival]

What I’m trying to say is that someone confronted with Christianity has a choice: either do what you’re told you need to do to be a Christian (or “saved,” or whatever else they’re saying one needs to do to avoid Hell) or not. If someone has been convinced that Hell is real, then their decision is being coerced.

If someone believes in Hell he already believes in Christianity. So using Hell as a threat only works on those who already believe. It's a useless threat when used against unbelievers. So it still makes being a Christian a choice.

 

[Derek500]

That's somewhat true, but when I come from non-believing is worse than getting your knee-caps blown off in the end. You'll burn for ever and ever and ever.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If someone believes in Hell he already believes in Christianity. So using Hell as a threat only works on those who already believe. It's a useless threat when used against unbelievers. So it still makes being a Christian a choice.

"Christianity" is not a single belief. There's a difference between accepting the factual claims of a religion as true and agreeing to be an adherent.

I'm talking about that leap from someone thinking "I believe Hell is real" to "I should be a Christian because otherwise I'll end up in Hell." That decision to become a Christian is coerced.

Again: consider the same scenario in a different context. If someone convinced you that a mobster was going to kill you if you didn't do something, your decision to do that thing would have been coerced. We wouldn't say that your decision to comply with the mobster wasn't coerced because it came as a package deal with believing that the threat was real.

 

[Rival]

"Christianity" is not a single belief. There's a difference between accepting the factual claims of a religion as true and agreeing to be an adherent.

Err, no, no there isn't. If you don't accept the claims you don't accept the religion.

I'm talking about that leap from someone thinking "I believe Hell is real" to "I should be a Christian because otherwise I'll end up in Hell." That decision to become a Christian is coerced.

Again: consider the same scenario in a different context. If someone convinced you that a mobster was going to kill you if you didn't do something, your decision to do that thing would have been coerced. We wouldn't say that your decision to comply with the mobster wasn't coerced because it came as a package deal with believing that the threat was real.

I can't understand why someone would believe in Hell first. That makes no sense to me because Hell only exists in an Abrahamic worldview and if you don't accept that worldview then there's no threat.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Err, no, no there isn't. If you don't accept the claims you don't accept the religion.

There's a difference between "necessary" and "sufficient." You have to believe that the threat is real in order to be coerced into complying, but the fact that you believe the threat is real doesn't necessarily mean you comply.

I can't understand why someone would believe in Hell first. That makes no sense to me because Hell only exists in an Abrahamic worldview and if you don't accept that worldview then there's no threat.

So you think that people accept religions before they have reason to accept them? I think that makes no sense.

Unless we're talking about little kids who take part in a religion because mommy or daddy tells them to, the belief has to precede the adherence: the reasons why a person would be a Christian - whether avoidance of Hell, desire for Heaven, or just a desire to follow Jesus's teachings - all depend on accepting factual claims. These beliefs have to come before the adherence.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Strong theist. It is slavery with monotheist God. It is a choice with polytheists. You can take many positions with the Gods or Goddeses.

"According to Swami Sivananda, there are three kinds of bhava – sattvic (purity, goodness), rajasic (passion and activity) and tamasic ( imbalance, disorder, chaos, anxiety, impurity, destruction, delusion, negativity, dullness or inactivity, apathy, inertia or lethargy, violence, viciousness, ignorance). Which predominates in a person depends on their own nature, ..

• śāntabhāva, the calm, peaceful, gentle or saintly attitude
• dāsyabhāva, the attitude of devotion
• sakhyabhāva, the attitude of a friend
• vātsalyabhāva, the attitude of a mother towards her child
• madhurabhāva (or kantabhava), the attitude of a woman in love
• tanmayabhava, the attitude that the Lord is present everywhere"

Bhava - Wikipedia

 

[metis]

Well, then Islam is slavery, Judaism is slavery, being a citizen is slavery, being an employee is slavery, being a child is slavery.................

... and my wife treats me like I'm her slave.

 

[Rival]

There's a difference between "necessary" and "sufficient." You have to believe that the threat is real in order to be coerced into complying, but the fact that you believe the threat is real doesn't necessarily mean you comply.

No-one should have to be coerced into complying with religion and if they are it's not real faith so they still are not believers. No-one can force you to believe something. How would one come to believe in Hell in the first place without that Abrahamic background? It doesn't work.

So you think that people accept religions before they have reason to accept them? I think that makes no sense.

There are myriad other reasons. Fear of Hell is not a reason because it only makes people act as though they believe and not actually believe and, like I keep saying, one has to accept the Abrahamic worldview first in order to be able to accept Hell, so one first needs a reason to accept the Abrahamic worldview.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Would you consider Christianity slavery?

I mean, I'm an atheist, and I consider it slavery, since there are so many restrictions in the Christian bible; no offense to Christians or anything, this is just my own opinion on the matter.

What's your opinion on the subject?

What restrictions are you talking about ?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No-one should have to be coerced into complying with religion and if they are it's not real faith so they still are not believers. No-one can force you to believe something. How would one come to believe in Hell in the first place without that Abrahamic background? It doesn't work.

Do you disagree with my analogy? I see the same process here:

- step 1: convince the person that the threat is real
- step 2: use the threat to coerce the person into some action.

It doesn't work the other way around.

There are myriad other reasons. Fear of Hell is not a reason because it only makes people act as though they believe and not actually believe and, like I keep saying, one has to accept the Abrahamic worldview first in order to be able to accept Hell, so one first needs a reason to accept the Abrahamic worldview.

There's more to becoming a Christian than just "accepting the Abrahamic worldview." As I've heard more than one Christian say, even Satan believes that God and Christ exist.

(BTW: I'd say that there isn't one single "Abrahamic worldview." There's a vast spectrum of worldviews among the Abrahamic religions)

 

[Rival]

Do you disagree with my analogy? I see the same process here:

- step 1: convince the person that the threat is real
- step 2: use the threat to coerce the person into some action.

It doesn't work the other way around.

Yes and as I keep saying, you first need to get the person to accept the Abrahamic worldview where Hell actually exists to begin with. You cannot use Hell to get the person to accept the religion as the unbeliever will not believe in your threat if he/she does not already believe in the faith or subscribe to that particular worldview.

Like if I tell you that I keep a dragon in my garage, I first have to prove to you that I own a house with a garage. If I don't own a house, there can be no dragon in the garage because there is no garage. The house is the worldview and the garage with dragon is Hell.

In other words, the person needs a reason to believe in Hell itfp.

I actually think we are mostly on the same page here.

There's more to becoming a Christian than just "accepting the Abrahamic worldview." As I've heard more than one Christian say, even Satan believes that God and Christ exist.

Yes, but since Hell exists for Jews, Christians, Muslims and Bahai's, I am not limiting myself to one faith.