Word of Faith debate

[blackout]

"Give us this day our Daily Bread" has such a simple feel to it.

It has nothing to do with savings accounts...
or storing up earthly treasuries.

Funny how mammon/man coined the term "bread"
to also imply money.

Bread is TRULY life giving and life sustaining...
and good.
Money is filthy.
My little one put a one dollar bill in her mouth the other day...
and I almost had a kiniption!
Money keeps the multitudes literally endebted to a small handful
of elite banking family "trees".
It is a talisman that keeps mankind from living a FREER kind of life.

I AM NOT indebted to men with magick "mint" trees.
I AM indebted to God alone...
and HE has given me true freedom...

in SPITE of man's "counterfiet" concepts of
Providence...
and
bread.

Father's Spiritual Providence...
the Kingdom on Earth
as it is in heaven...
trumps any concept of "treasury" that mankind could ever create.

 

[YmirGF]

...and i am not a friend to the world ...

Some things just don't need saying, friend. The sentiment expressed above is fairly obvious and it tends to nullify whatever else you are trying to say.

 

[rocka21]

The LDS church adds around 350,000 souls each year.



The LDS church has given over $906,000,000 in Humanitarian aid since 1985 in 163 countries without any obligation from the recipients. There are also 3,552 members currently serving Welfare and Humanitarian missions besides the 53,000 full-time proselyting missions.

The LDS church provides more than 4,500 family history centers in 70 countries around the world for those interested in research free of charge.

and of course we do literally hundreds of thousands of hours of labor as service in our communities each year with a dollar amount that would be very difficult to calculate.



The LDS church has 4 Universities/Colleges with over 45,000 students.


And with all that, we don't chase money but rather give it away, you don't have to make money the focus of your religion in order to do good with it.

very nice.

except i am talking about ONE local church, not a whole organization.

if i talked about ALL WoF churches I think the numbers would be different.

come on now, this is a real cheap shot.

 

[doppelganger]

Religion is a business. You are selling a product or service that people are willing to give their hard-earned money for so that the "Church" can report higher earnings to the branch office (denominational), or so the pastoral staff can drive around in nice Lexus (non-denominational). As Amway proved long ago, one great way to make a boatload of money off of people is to tell them how great they could be and how rich they'll be if only they'll listen to you. People will pay for that kind of information. They'll pay dearly.

Enter "The Secret" and "Word of Faith", Kenneth Copeland, Casey Treat, Tony Robbins, multilevel marketing, and the whole aisle of "secular" self-help nonsense at the local bookstore . . . secretly telling people how worthless they are in words that sound like compliments, and all the while shearing the flock for every . . . . last . . . bit.

As I wrote here:

And above it all - you deserve to be . . . rich! Work is an inconvenience. Directly contrary to one of the dominant ethos it replaced in America, the Calvinist work ethic, wellness tells us that work is bad. Having a job and being productive are a sign of failure, a sign that one is of the masses and is not special.

But of course, only a few can be rich. That's why we call it "rich."

What about the rest? They'll just have to be satisfied with hope. Endless, boundless irrational, soul-splitting, life-denying, mind-bending and "motivational" hope. Multilevel marketing and other get rich schemes. Fad diets. Ridiculous herbal supplements at outrageous prices making spurious claims about increasing the size of your penis or breasts. Drugs, promising to give back the vitality that life in our modern worlds of alienated sisyphean futility has stolen, sucked out by the popping flourescent lights hanging over us eight hours a day at the office cubicle. The 'prosperity' Gospel and "name it and claim it." "Possibility thinking." You do indeed create your own reality with a "positive mental attitude." And if you can't? There's something wrong with you. See a therapist. Pop another pill. Lose some weight. Get some more faith.

But there's a dirty little secret to wellness - one that becomes painfully loud and obvious, but only once you become conscious of how wellness operates . . .

Prosperity gospel and possibility thinking are part of larger cultural phenomenon that includes Prozac, Oprah, 12-stepping, and other tools of the wellness culture that make conspicuous consumerism psychologically palatable as the center of our culture. Consumerism, I think everyone would agree, already predominates over the religious and nationalistic meanings of almost all our holidays.

This trend in Christianity toward a "therapeutic" vision of the message and away from simplicity, moderation, tolerance, love, compassion and self-sacrifice is part of a larger cultural dynamic at work - the focus on individual feeling of fulfillment, purpose and happiness rather than giving voice and meaning to the Spirit of love. And that is a very effective method for wresting control of a modern American's identity because our culture immerses us in the idea that "happiness" and "more" are synonyms. Madison avenue, the self-help industry and multilevel marketing are all taking advantage of this same cultural dynamic - which is driven (as these things always are) by commerce and technology - the economic efficiency of mass marketing made possible by the mass media of radio and television improves its penetration by homogenizing cultural identity AND building that identity around conspicuous consumption.

And the dirty little secret is that we aren't being told the secret of 'happiness' at all. We are being taught to hate ourselves. We aren't rich enough, sexy enough, smart enough, or creative enough. Our kids aren't at the best schools. We still have to work. There's a better life just around the bend. If only I could bend my existence to conform to the images with which I am inundated . . .

. . . and that means I need to buy something.

 

[rocka21]

Rocka,

How did the Apostles live from the time Christ made his supposed promise to make them immediately rich to their deaths?

Was it:

A. A luxurious life in huge mansions with huge amounts of money?
B. Poor, penniless, transient lives going from city to city with no real money to speak of?


If your answer is A, would you mind sharing the scriptures that show the luxurious lifestyle of the apostles, if it is B, did Jesus lie or are you misunderstanding the scripture?

the Latter-day Saints employ vast amounts of money in investments that TIME estimates to be at least $6 billion strong. Even more unusual, most of this money is not in bonds or stock in other peoples' companies but is invested directly in church-owned, for-profit concerns, the largest of which are in agribusiness, media, insurance, travel and real estate. Deseret Management Corp., the company through which the church holds almost all its commercial assets, is one of the largest owners of farm and ranchland in the country, including 49 for-profit parcels in addition to the Deseret Ranch. Besides the Bonneville International chain and Beneficial Life, the church owns a 52% holding in ZCMI, Utah's largest department-store chain. (For a more complete list, see chart.) All told, TIME estimates that the Latter-day Saints farmland and financial investments total some $11 billion, and that the church's nontithe income from its investments exceeds $600 million.

In the first century of corporate Mormonism, the church's leaders were partners, officers or directors in more than 900 Utah-area businesses. They owned woolen mills, cotton factories, 500 local co-ops, 150 stores and 200 miles of railroad. Moreover, when occasionally faced with competition, they insisted that church members patronize LDS-owned businesses. Eventually this became too much for the U.S. Congress. In 1887 it passed the Edmunds-Tucker Act, specifically to smash the Mormons' vertical monopolies.

The president is also supplied with a home. According to the Salt Lake Tribune, Aug. 27, 1994, p. E1, the president of the LDS Church lives in a "downtown condominium, the official residence of church presidents." In the Salt Lake Tribune, Dec. 8, 1988, we read "The $1.2 million condominium at 40 N. State that is home to the president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will be exempt from property taxes, Salt Lake County commissioners ruled Tuesday."



now , go and take that beam out of your own eye.


your dismissed.

 

[doppelganger]

There is, of course, some truth to the Secret and Word of Faith. What we perceive as real IS real and reality occurs in the perceiving. The problem is that this awareness of how we shape reality should help control the effects of delusion, not as an excuse to revel in it.

 

[rocka21]

Religion is a business. You are selling a product or service that people are willing to give their hard-earned money for so that the "Church" can report higher earnings to the branch office (denominational), or so the pastoral staff can drive around in nice Lexus (non-denominational). As Amway proved long ago, one great way to make a boatload of money off of people is to tell them how great they could be and how rich they'll be if only they'll listen to you. People will pay for that kind of information. They'll pay dearly.

Enter "The Secret" and "Word of Faith", Kenneth Copeland, Casey Treat, Tony Robbins, multilevel marketing, and the whole aisle of "secular" self-help nonsense at the local bookstore . . . secretly telling people how worthless they are in words that sound like compliments, and all the while shearing the flock for every . . . . last . . . bit.

As I wrote here:

nice,

you seem to have got it down.

tell me just one thing.

if my pastor. A so called " wof" preacher, was just in a marketing scam to get money, how come 10 years ago , i got off drugs, quit running with people that would send me to jail, and my life changed?

how come for the last ten years, i drive 30 miles on mondays to the county jail and hold church service. With NO PAY? How can i run my SCAM on these prisioners?

All Wof is a big MONEY scam, right?


I love how all these people here want to tell me i am in error. That i am chasing gold cars and mansons. They take because i believe god for money that i am Lusting after Gold.

the poster above said i was a friend to the world and the one above that says " money if filthy".

yet both of them probably earn and carry money every day. How did you buy that computer? why not sell everything and go live in a cave and pray?

 

[rocka21]

There is, of course, some truth to the Secret and Word of Faith. What we perceive as real IS real and reality occurs in the perceiving. The problem is that this awareness of how we shape reality should help control the effects of delusion, not as an excuse to revel in it.

the fact is , giving and receiving has always been in the bible.

Luke 6:38
Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.


You just can lump all Wof type preacher in the same boat with the slick talkin shister that you may see once and a while. People here are trying to label me as such and it is not fair. Because they see some crooked preacher somewhere, they take there anger out on me. I am not him but i do live by faith...

some more great scriptures..

Psalm 1:3
And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.



13And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee.
14Thou shalt be blessed above all people: there shall not be male or female barren among you, or among your cattle. 15And the LORD will take away from thee all sickness, and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which thou knowest, upon thee; but will lay them upon all them that hate thee.

1All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers.



8A land of wheat, and barley, and vines, and fig trees, and pomegranates; a land of oil olive, and honey;
9A land wherein thou shalt eat bread without scarceness, thou shalt not lack any thing in it; a land whose stones are iron, and out of whose hills thou mayest dig brass.
10When thou hast eaten and art full, then thou shalt bless the LORD thy God for the good land which he hath given thee.
11Beware that thou forget not the LORD thy God, in not keeping his commandments, and his judgments, and his statutes, which I command thee this day:
12Lest when thou hast eaten and art full, and hast built goodly houses, and dwelt therein;
13And when thy herds and thy flocks multiply, and thy silver and thy gold is multiplied, and all that thou hast is multiplied;
14Then thine heart be lifted up, and thou forget the LORD thy God, which brought thee forth out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage;
15Who led thee through that great and terrible wilderness, wherein were fiery serpents, and scorpions, and drought, where there was no water; who brought thee forth water out of the rock of flint;
16Who fed thee in the wilderness with manna, which thy fathers knew not, that he might humble thee, and that he might prove thee, to do thee good at thy latter end;
17And thou say in thine heart, My power and the might of mine hand hath gotten me this wealth. 18But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.

 

[doppelganger]

if my pastor. A so called " wof" preacher, was just in a marketing scam to get money, how come 10 years ago , i got off drugs, quit running with people that would send me to jail, and my life changed?

Because you found the strength within yourself to change who you think you are. Don't sell yourself short, rocka. YOU did that.

how come for the last ten years, i drive 30 miles on mondays to the county jail and hold church service. With NO PAY? How can i run my SCAM on these prisioners?

All Wof is a big MONEY scam, right?

You need to re-read my last two posts in this thread. I think you missed half of what I'm saying.

 

[doppelganger]

the fact is , giving and receiving has always been in the bible.

And . . .

You may not know this yet, rocka, but quoting "Scriptures" as an argument by appeal to authority carries no weight or significance with me. One can find "Scriptures" one can then interpret to support pretty much any position. If you have a point to make, build it from your own words and ideas. That would be worth the read. :yes:

 

[rocka21]

And . . .

You may not know this yet, rocka, but quoting "Scriptures" as an argument by appeal to authority carries no weight or significance with me. One can find "Scriptures" one can then interpret to support pretty much any position. If you have a point to make, build it from your own words and ideas. That would be worth the read. :yes:

yes, i know this.

it was more of a general post , not directed at you.

most of the time, i make my points from the bible. that is where i get most of my words and ideas.

by the way...... you are in San Antoino? Are you close to Steve Fender or John Hagee's chruches?

 

[doppelganger]

y
by the way...... you are in San Antoino? Are you close to Steve Fender or John Hagee's chruches?

Cornerstone is five minutes away as I write this.

 

[blackout]

They take because i believe god for money that i am Lusting after Gold.
the poster above said i was a friend to the world and the one above that says " money if filthy".

yet both of them probably earn and carry money every day. How did you buy that computer? why not sell everything and go live in a cave and pray?

Well actually ... physical money IS EXTREEMELY filthy.
The pleathora of germs and contaminations
from being handled and passed back back and forth
between so many less than clean hands......

NOT the kinda bread I want my children putting in their mouths.

Now Gold on the other hand (besides having some ACTUAL value)
would probably be a better thing to put in your mouth than "coinage" and "bills".
(catch phrases and laws). A mouth of Gold.

Still it will not sustain you like ACTUAL bonafied bread will.

"Give us this day our daily Gold"?
Better... or not?

The WHOLE world system is messed up.
"In the world... but not of it".

I'm not into picking fights with the pirates.

 

[rocka21]

Cornerstone is five minutes away as I write this.

John Hagee will be at our church next month. Ever been to cornersone? is it as huge as it looks on tv?

i like John Hagee's sermons, but could not take a daily dose of them? LOL.

If you watch closely , he reads all of his sermons off paper. His son says his dad ( John), writes all his sermons six weeks in advance. Another interesting point is that cornerstone has the MOST tv. time world wide. More than ANY other christian ministry.

now in my John Hagee Voice............... GIVE HIME PRAISE AND GLORY! ( as i snap my fingers by my lapel mic.)

 

[doppelganger]

John Hagee will be at our church next month. Ever been to cornersone? is it as huge as it looks on tv?

It is enormous. I haven't been. My mega-church days are far behind me. John Hagee's message I find particularly disturbing. Especially the way he mixes apocalyptic religion and politics.

 

[YmirGF]

GIVE HIME PRAISE AND GLORY! ( as i snap my fingers by my lapel mic.)

Who, exactly is Hime? Is this some great Jewish fellow?

Pass the love offerings... skip the details...

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Thread closed for MOD review.