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Women's Sports

Koldo

Outstanding Member
If you liked sports you’d know there are a lot of stupid teams paying over the odds yes.

You might also understand that wasn’t the point I was making and that I’ve explained the point to you at least 5 times.

They do make stupid mistakes, but the overall rationale is not mistaken at all. You can count on some players playing better than others.

It is fair to judge the best person in that category and these categories are based on reasonable criteria.

Awesome. How do you determine if a given criterion is reasonable?

To answer your question now: Your hyphotetical race is unfair because despite all competitors having an equal opportunity at winning (none of them are being hindered by any rules in particular or being granted an advantage over the others), it is obviously the case that the physical capabilities of adult females makes it so that the children don't have a solid chance at actually winning.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Descriptions like these tend to explain why person X has an advantage over an average person and is thus more likely to become elite.

When you compare elite athletes to other elite athletes, these metrics tend to lose any predictive value.
Whilst I agree.

It wasn’t a disqualifying factor. Despite it technically offering a natural advantage, according to sports scientists
I’m not under the assumption that we aim for absolute fairness in every sense of the term. That’s an impossible goal, imo

We freely wave away natural advantages and perhaps that’s just a consequence of evolution in the long run. That’s fine, I have no real issue with that.

But I’m curious to see the actual scientifically ascertained (as it were) stats comparing post transition athletes to their cis counterparts.
The results may well be more close than people want to admit. Presuming puberty was avoided by said Trans competitors.

I mean I know cis women who could probably kick the butt of some cis men.
Humans are an odd bunch with various shapes and sizes. Trans individuals are but one more shape to take into consideration.
Maybe they need their own category maybe they can fit into others. Maybe it can’t be averaged out for a few more years.
I don’t know. I’m no expert, nor do I claim to be.

I prefer mixed sports leagues, anyway
 

Callisto

Hellenismos, BTW
To which I can reply: If all women are allowed the same opportunity, how is this not fair?
The division is sex-segregated, it's for biological women. Other divisions exist for biological males. You keep making these comments over and over and it's been explained multiple times, so what is it that's difficult to understand?
Because the physical/genetical differences within the group of all females is wide enough to make it so their performance on any given (physical) sport will not depend mostly on training or skills or proper diet, but rather on their inherent physical traits. And having an inherent physical trait(s) that essentially makes you the winner or that excludes people without this trait from having an actual chance at winning is unfair. The exact same reason that you would use to say that it is unfair for transwomen to compete against cisgender women.

You can check the following image to see how each sport benefits a certain body type:

02-nXMTGG2.jpg


Some sports allow for a wide range of body types though, others not at all.

They are all share the same physiology. They all went through the exact same prenatal, natal, and pubescent development. The same is true among women.

Athletic performance is complex and is influenced by both genetic and environmental factors. Given not everyone can be an elite athlete, it's evident that those who can are individuals who fall within a comparable range of genetic advantages which makes it feasible to compete on that level. The reality is elite athletes are closely matched which is why doping became a thing: to gain an edge (cheat) that can make the difference of a split second or extra point between winning and losing.

But perhaps you would like athletes to submit to genetic testing as part of their application process. Since these divisions are sex-segregated, it would certainly verify who is male and who is female thus confirming which division an athlete should compete in. From there, see if any competitors have genetic mutations that are so unusual that they would disqualify the person from competing since they're "too good" and it would be unfair even among other elite athletes in their division.

Question: How many more times are you planning to go 'round on this?
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
The division is sex-segregated, it's for biological women. Other divisions exist for biological males. You keep making these comments over and over and it's been explained multiple times, so what is it that's difficult to understand?

This is not correct, because there are leagues that have been accepting transwomen in women's categories.
And even if it were, referring to how things are has no bearing on how thing can be.


They are all share the same physiology.

Are you sure that is the word you intended to use?


They all went through the exact same prenatal, natal, and pubescent development. The same is true among women.

Which doesn't grant them equal bodies or even similar, as you are well aware.

Athletic performance is complex and is influenced by both genetic and environmental factors. Given not everyone can be an elite athlete, it's evident that those who can are individuals who fall within a comparable range of genetic advantages which makes it feasible to compete on that level.

That's the current state of affairs, but there is no reason at all why that must be the state of affairs. Imagine living in an age where women couldn't play soccer and hearing people say that if you want to play soccer at elite level you are free to play against the males or shut up.

The reality is elite athletes are closely matched which is why doping became a thing: to gain an edge (cheat) that can make the difference of a split second or extra point between winning and losing.

They are not all closely matched. There is a huge difference even among elite athletes, thus why it is possible to predict with a significant degree of accuracy that someone simply won't win.

But perhaps you would like athletes to submit to genetic testing as part of their application process. Since these divisions are sex-segregated, it would certainly verify who is male and who is female thus confirming which division an athlete should compete in. From there, see if any competitors have genetic mutations that are so unusual that they would disqualify the person from competing since they're "too good" and it would be unfair even among other elite athletes in their division.

Question: How many more times are you planning to go 'round on this?

What particular solution is going to be found to promote fairness in each given sport is of little concern to me, because honestly it is not like any of us can enact that change. I am much more interested in the general trend behind this.
 

Callisto

Hellenismos, BTW
This is not correct, because there are leagues that have been accepting transwomen in women's categories.
And even if it were, referring to how things are has no bearing on how thing can be.
Suddenly this isnt' true? Funny, it's exactly what's been discussed through several posts now. The female divisions that have had transwomen compete have had controversy for doing so. These divisions are sex-segregated and you know it. Please stop playing obtuse.

Are you sure that is the word you intended to use?
Yes, they share the same physiology, they fall within the science that focuses. on how the human body functions. Human physiology, if that's still unclear for you and not some other kind of animal physiology.
Which doesn't grant them equal bodies or even similar, as you are well aware.

Make a pointless comment and get another derp.

That's the current state of affairs, but there is no reason at all why that must be the state of affairs. Imagine living in an age where women couldn't play soccer and hearing people say that if you want to play soccer at elite level you are free to play against the males or shut up.
Women are currently being made to play against males right now, have you completely lost the thread?

They are not all closely matched. There is a huge difference even among elite athletes, thus why it is possible to predict with a significant degree of accuracy that someone simply won't win.
If they don't closely match there wouldn't be a category with parameters to qualify.

What particular solution is going to be found to promote fairness in each given sport is of little concern to me, because honestly it is not like any of us can enact that change. I am much more interested in the general trend behind this.

Uh, ok. So basically, you're just wasting bandwidth for the sake of doing so?
 
They do make stupid mistakes, but the overall rationale is not mistaken at all. You can count on some players playing better than others.

You seem too misunderstand.

Being taller gives you a better chance of playing in the NBA. Looking simply at player's heights doesn't tell you which NBA player will be the best.

To answer your question now: Your hyphotetical race is unfair because despite all competitors having an equal opportunity at winning (none of them are being hindered by any rules in particular or being granted an advantage over the others), it is obviously the case that the physical capabilities of adult females makes it so that the children don't have a solid chance at actually winning.

There we go, it's not difficult to understand the rationale behind protected categories, is it?

Now let's see if you can see why that also applies to transwomen being allowed into elite female categories.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
If Michael Phelps was not so far ahead his "peers", can you kindly explain how he was able to consistently win medals (and mostly gold medals) in international competitions across different categories?
His body was able to metabolize lactic acid better than the rest. When lactic acids builds up in your muscles, muscles will lower their efficiency; fatigue. His body could better remove the lactic acid, staying at peak performance longer than others.
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
Sports, in general, is unique in modern culture. Everyone gets to play, with everyone is expected to play by one set of rules, often with referees to impose those rules. Sports also breaks down into individuals, teams and leagues, based on one's level of ability in that sport. Sports does not assume we are all equal, since that is a myth. It has objective criteria such a points scored, or seconds to run 100 meter, to objectively separate talent into leagues. It does not try to cloud reason with sentiment.

Sports acknowledges and takes into account various levels of ability; we are not all equal in sports. It tries to place people with equal ability in the same leagues, so the competition is always fair, allowing everyone at that level, to play at their full potential.

In sports, men and women all play by the same rules, but since men and women are not physically the same, having two leagues; men and women, allows the games to be fair and allows everyone to play at their full potential; for the glory of sports and yourself. If you try to force all levels of ability to play together, the best players get bored, and the worse player get frustrated, since the idea that we are all equal is an illusion. Sports is objective reality in a microcosm.

In the news, the Liberal created biological males doped up to look like women, are wanting to play in women's sports based on the shallow Liberal philosophy that what counts is on the surface; if it looks like a girl it must be a girl, but not what is deep down like in sports; biology, physicality, talent and skill level.

Ironically, women; feminists movement, once benefitted by the faulty premise; superficial criteria before talent, i.e, quota system to make it equal? However, women in sports have awaken to the benefits that objective segregation by ability brings via sports; glory of sports. I think the pendulum is about to swing the other way, away from dual standards caused by shallow thinking, back to common sense culture, that can teach everyone to play the sports of life, by one set of rules, with each in our own leagues, pushing our individual ability.

How do you feel about excluding gender entirely and having athletes compete against each other in leagues based on skill level? That appears to be the best way to push individual ability in my opinion.
 
But I’m curious to see the actual scientifically ascertained (as it were) stats comparing post transition athletes to their cis counterparts.
The results may well be more close than people want to admit. Presuming puberty was avoided by said Trans competitors.

AFAIk there is no real evidence on those who avoided puberty as almost all transwomen went through male puberty.

Could it be definitively shown that such people had no advantage then there would be no reason to limit them to open categories. I guess such definitive evidence will take a decade or more to establish though.

The evidence is pretty clear on those who went through male puberty that many retain a significant advantage in strength, explosiveness, etc.
 
How do you feel about excluding gender entirely and having athletes compete against each other in leagues based on skill level? That appears to be the best way to push individual ability in my opinion.

It ends elite and professional women's sports as the best women will be forced to compete against sub-elite males.

At amateur level, many women would prefer to compete against skilful and proficient women, rather than mediocre males with physical advantages. It will almost certainly reduce female participation imo. For me, female sport participation is something to be encouraged.

In contact/collision sports it doesn't mitigate increased injury risk to females.

Any formalised "skill level" divisions are either logistically impossible, or prone to manipulation, sandbagging, etc. Many people would prefer to be the best in a lower skill division than the worst in a better one and will manipulate test results to do this.

Mixed sports can work, but only in a limited number of sports or on a voluntary basis.

As a forced "solution" it has no real merits other than hypothetically being more inclusive (but at the expense of actual inclusion), and many serious problems.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
@F1fan , I also want to mention the fact that a truly "conservative" position would be to let local school districts, individual college conferences, individual professional sports leagues, and organizations like the Olympic Committee make decisions on such matters and not politicians. The likes of DeSantis is much more compatible with Marxist methodology than actual political conservatism.

A lot of Marxists are either for democracy (sometimes up to and including direct democracy) or a stateless society. Marxists who support extreme authoritarianism and a particularly far-reaching government tend to subscribe to Marxism-Leninism or an offshoot thereof (e.g., Maoism and Stalinism).

I'm mentioning this because my own worldview includes quite a bit of Marxist influence, and I strongly oppose both DeSantis and authoritarian varieties of Marxism.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
His body was able to metabolize lactic acid better than the rest. When lactic acids builds up in your muscles, muscles will lower their efficiency; fatigue. His body could better remove the lactic acid, staying at peak performance longer than others.

And very long arms, and big hands, and big feet, and large lung capacity....
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
You seem too misunderstand.

Being taller gives you a better chance of playing in the NBA.

Not just a better chance. It is almost impossible to play at the NBA if you are shorter than average, for example.

Looking simply at player's heights doesn't tell you which NBA player will be the best.

I have never said otherwise.

There we go, it's not difficult to understand the rationale behind protected categories, is it?

Now let's see if you can see why that also applies to transwomen being allowed into elite female categories.

Great, so you agree that if all competitors don't have a solid chance at winning because some of them have a huge physical advantage that it is not a fair competition, right?
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Women's sports conflicts with the Liberal philosophy of DEI or diversity, equity and inclusion, since it does not allow diversity and inclusion beyond women; trans athletes or males. Nor does it allow equity for women if some bio-men get to play. I would like to present an analogy for the pitfalls of DEI. I call it climbing Mount Everest and DEI.

Say we decided to plan a mountain climbing trip to Mount Everest. We will apply the Liberal DEI philosophy and allow anyone to go, not based on merit and experience, but on shallow diversity standards like sex, skin color, age, ethnicity, gender, weight, etc. This will make the trip diverse and inclusive at a superficial level.

What is left to do is make this trip equitable? Climbing Mount Everest is not going to be easy. Rather it will be quite exhausting and dangerous. If you are not prepared and experienced, it can be deadly. Even dealing with elevation can be difficult, if you do not train in advance. The idea of shallow criteria to take this trip and expect equity of results is irrational. This is a specific task with specific skills needed for safety. There may be a group or league of climbers who can do this, but that group is not based on the shallows, but experience and preparation. The group may not check all the liberal boxes but will have the best chance to succeed and be safe.

The diversity, equity and inclusion approach might work up through the flight to Nepal. But after that, equity for the DEI will start to break down, unless we either dumb down the achievers and not allow them to go beyond the point, where the least of the shallows can go. Our we may need to add lots of extra resources, to create an illusion that this shallow diversity can achieve equal results, all the way to the top.

We can hire Sherpa Guides to carry the weakest diversity members up the mountain. But this is no longer equity, since those who will hike by themselves do not get to be carried. While those who are not on the trip, who have paid taxes for the trip, have no equity outcome. They also need to have equity, to make up for spending but not going on the trip. What should be done to balance this off for the support people? The answer according to DEI is nothing. Equity only applies to Leftist. Everyone else owes them.

A better approach is based on merit first. In this case, all the shallows are welcome; diversity and inclusion, but equity will be based on your own level of talent and experience. Funding will be done though charity and fund raising. Some will need to stay at a hotel in Nepal, others will make it to base camp, some will make it half way, and a few will make it to the top, with merit deciding what is fair for each of you; different leagues.

Everyone gets to play, but not everyone will get the same results, since shallow diversity has different levels of merit, since merit is different. One is not born with merit, since merit depends on many factors including talent, will power, preparation and desire. The Left needs to think deeper, and not stay so shallow. To them equity means benefit their group, at the expense of others. Trans in women sports cheats women, who lose their equity in sports. It is disheartening to force ringers onto them.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
Sports, in general, is unique in modern culture. Everyone gets to play, with everyone is expected to play by one set of rules, often with referees to impose those rules. Sports also breaks down into individuals, teams and leagues, based on one's level of ability in that sport. Sports does not assume we are all equal, since that is a myth. It has objective criteria such a points scored, or seconds to run 100 meter, to objectively separate talent into leagues. It does not try to cloud reason with sentiment.

Sports acknowledges and takes into account various levels of ability; we are not all equal in sports. It tries to place people with equal ability in the same leagues, so the competition is always fair, allowing everyone at that level, to play at their full potential.

In sports, men and women all play by the same rules, but since men and women are not physically the same, having two leagues; men and women, allows the games to be fair and allows everyone to play at their full potential; for the glory of sports and yourself. If you try to force all levels of ability to play together, the best players get bored, and the worse player get frustrated, since the idea that we are all equal is an illusion. Sports is objective reality in a microcosm.

In the news, the Liberal created biological males doped up to look like women, are wanting to play in women's sports based on the shallow Liberal philosophy that what counts is on the surface; if it looks like a girl it must be a girl, but not what is deep down like in sports; biology, physicality, talent and skill level.

Ironically, women; feminists movement, once benefitted by the faulty premise; superficial criteria before talent, i.e, quota system to make it equal? However, women in sports have awaken to the benefits that objective segregation by ability brings via sports; glory of sports. I think the pendulum is about to swing the other way, away from dual standards caused by shallow thinking, back to common sense culture, that can teach everyone to play the sports of life, by one set of rules, with each in our own leagues, pushing our individual ability.
I have been thinking on this a lot recently and I believe since sports is entertainment and only highlighting our physical capabilities, they should all be combined. Teams should have to play the best men and the best woman on the field at the same time. A baseball team on the field should be 5 and 4 at all times. A football team 5 and 6 at all times. This would make the sport much harder to play and thereby much more interesting. The amount of planning and strategizing would be incredible. The best male and female salaries would go up. The only downside is women may get hurt more but it would of course be there decision to play, and their compensation would go up for it.

Single sports like tennis, track and golf are more problematic but you could make all events team events. Instead of the masters or opens being male/female events. Males have to team with females and the open winner is a combination of their points. World rankings can still be determined by tournament wins but the events would have to all be mixed to win. Track on most levels other than world events is a team events points given to places taken by players to teams but It could be the only sport where gender is specific as it is really testing only one aspect of the individual.

The understanding is that all these events are solely entertainment and provide no value without Fans. In fact all the money is generated by fans of the entertainment so if the fans want to see Men and Women earning the same or competing with each other then to earn money these events will have to change. If the fans don't care then they don't have to change and won't change. Think about all the other entertainment industries they can based on fan response eventually. There are no more silent movies and very few talk radion shows, news papers and magazines are almost nonexistent. Its only a matter of time before sports entertainment changes, they are currently pricing themselves out of the market and forgetting about the fans.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
I have been thinking on this a lot recently and I believe since sports is entertainment and only highlighting our physical capabilities, they should all be combined. Teams should have to play the best men and the best woman on the field at the same time. A baseball team on the field should be 5 and 4 at all times. A football team 5 and 6 at all times. This would make the sport much harder to play and thereby much more interesting. The amount of planning and strategizing would be incredible. The best male and female salaries would go up. The only downside is women may get hurt more but it would of course be there decision to play, and their compensation would go up for it.

Single sports like tennis, track and golf are more problematic but you could make all events team events. Instead of the masters or opens being male/female events. Males have to team with females and the open winner is a combination of their points. World rankings can still be determined by tournament wins but the events would have to all be mixed to win. Track on most levels other than world events is a team events points given to places taken by players to teams but It could be the only sport where gender is specific as it is really testing only one aspect of the individual.

The understanding is that all these events are solely entertainment and provide no value without Fans. In fact all the money is generated by fans of the entertainment so if the fans want to see Men and Women earning the same or competing with each other then to earn money these events will have to change. If the fans don't care then they don't have to change and won't change. Think about all the other entertainment industries they can based on fan response eventually. There are no more silent movies and very few talk radion shows, news papers and magazines are almost nonexistent. Its only a matter of time before sports entertainment changes, they are currently pricing themselves out of the market and forgetting about the fans.
This overlooks the basic point that sport is primarily a participative activity, not entertainment. What couch potatoes see on TV is merely the tip of a huge pyramid of amateur sport, enjoyed by hundreds of thousands of ordinary, physically active people.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
This overlooks the basic point that sport is primarily a participative activity, not entertainment. What couch potatoes see on TV is merely the tip of a huge pyramid of amateur sport, enjoyed by hundreds of thousands of ordinary, physically active people.
All sports is a participative activity, no one has to play at all. The rules, the times, the number of players can be changed and are changed at any time. Why are little leagues using composite bats when they're not allowed in the pro's. For that matter the rules are different in the same sport at the different levels of play. Football is flag football for young players. The distances pitched and bases are different for younger players. Nothing says if we want we can't keep girls and boys playing separately under the new system or we could up the number of players you have to use like they do in some leagues.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
A lot of Marxists are either for democracy (sometimes up to and including direct democracy) or a stateless society. Marxists who support extreme authoritarianism and a particularly far-reaching government tend to subscribe to Marxism-Leninism or an offshoot thereof (e.g., Maoism and Stalinism).

I'm mentioning this because my own worldview includes quite a bit of Marxist influence, and I strongly oppose both DeSantis and authoritarian varieties of Marxism.
There was a split between Marx and Engles on this, and it was that Marx believed that a strong-armed policy might be necessary to create a fully socialistic world, but Engles didn't as he saw it as a betrayal of all people being equally important. They actually became bitter enemies over this point.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
One is not born with merit, since merit depends on many factors including talent,

One is not born with merit, since merit depends on many factors such as talent (which is something you are born with), right?

Amazing. Just amazing...
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
All sports is a participative activity, no one has to play at all. The rules, the times, the number of players can be changed and are changed at any time. Why are little leagues using composite bats when they're not allowed in the pro's. For that matter the rules are different in the same sport at the different levels of play. Football is flag football for young players. The distances pitched and bases are different for younger players. Nothing says if we want we can't keep girls and boys playing separately under the new system or we could up the number of players you have to use like they do in some leagues.
Indeed. But then the structure of these sports, based as it is on the sexes competing playing separately, will be what shapes the sport at professional level too.

In fact in some sports where physical strength or size is acknowledged to be a great advantage, they already divide them into subcategories within a sex category. For instance boxing, or rowing, where there are lightweight events for those, like me, that are not built like Stonehenge.
 
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