Women should keep silent in the assembly?

[URAVIP2ME]

Yes, but teaching in a college context and in a k-12 context is extremely different. College teaching is, as the word imply, collegial. It must involve personal work, discussion and debates. College level courses are not limited to a professor making presentation and students listening. They include a lot other things and high level college course don't even contain significant amount of lectures.

Thank you for your detailed reply. Still the professor would be 'head' over the student.
I was merely using that headship arrangement as an arrangement that people accept.
Or, for that matter, there is only one Captain on a ship. Again a headship arrangement people accept.
God purposed Adam to care for Eve. Eve was not given that responsibility but to have Adam as a captain.
Adam as Captain, or head of the household, and was to display loving headship over wife and family.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What if the husband becomes an apostate?.............

Good question ^ above ^ . In the Bible it is ' death ' that ends the marriage vow.
However, Jesus allowed for ' fornication ' (Porneia) to be scriptural grounds for divorce. Matthew 5:32; Matthew 19:9
In the Greek word Porneia it can include perverted sex acts, including sex with an animal, as grounds for divorce.
Any thoughts about 1 Corinthians 7:13-14 _______________
However, there is a difference between an un-believer and an apostate (extreme opposer).
If one's spirituality is in danger then one would need to separate, just as being in physical danger need to separate.
But one would Not be free to divorce unless the mate commits adultery/ fornication (porneia)

 

[URAVIP2ME]

...... What if the husband has less spiritual understanding than the wife?................

I find we are all at different stages of spiritual growth.
Since God placed headship upon the husband, the wife is still in subjection to his leadership.
This does Not mean she has No say. Remember: Abraham listened to Sarah - Genesis 21:12
If the husband wants the wife to do something out of harmony with Scripture then the wife would choose to obey God over the man - Acts of the Apostles 5:29.

 

[epronovost]

Thank you for your detailed reply. Still the professor would be 'head' over the student.
I was merely using that headship arrangement as an arrangement that people accept.
Or, for that matter, there is only one Captain on a ship. Again a headship arrangement people accept.
God purposed Adam to care for Eve. Eve was not given that responsibility but to have Adam as a captain.
Adam as Captain, or head of the household, and was to display loving headship over wife and family.

Correct. Captaincy and a professor's chair are indeed headship that are accepted since their headship is limited to their field of expertise and the result of work and recognition from their peers as specialist in their specific domain. Captaincy and professor's chair are also awarded on merit and are position offered to anyone as long as they can fulfill the requirement of the job. Discrimination based on skills or talents is considered acceptable and reasonable in most situation, but discrimination based on unrelated characteristics like hair color or gender for example, is not.

Men did not universally acquired their privileged position on the basis of their merit through the judgement of their peers, neither do they risk losing their post should they be found wanting. There is nothing that makes men universally more apt to lead a family unit and society in general then women yet the doctrine of male headship resulted in the oppression of women for the benefit of men. Furthermore, it's incorrect to say that under a male headship doctrine a women has no responsibility toward her husband. She owes him obedience, affection and care. She works for him under his aegis. This is clearly explicitly mention in both traditional marital vows and in girl's education everywhere where male headship is culturally dominant.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

........................While typically first-century men would not choose a woman to be an elder, this doesn't really say that a woman cannot be an elder. But Paul is assuming most would be at least.... But...let's continue.... Have a look at a later verse in the 1rst Timothy chapter:
12 A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well.
Ah!.... remember something?.....
....Yes! A woman was a deacon already...as we read in Romans:
" I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae. "....
Yes, at 1 Timothy 3:10-13 "KJV" does use the word deacon.
I looked up in a Greek/English Interlinear and found at Romans 16:1 the word as 'minister' ( Not deacon )
At 1 Timothy 3:10-13 I find from the Greek to read as ministers and servants - 1Timothy 3:8
A minister is a servant whether male or female, but only men serve as elders.
Notice about the women at Luke 8:3. They ministered but that did Not make them as being an elder...............

 

[Fallen Prophet]

What if the husband becomes an apostate?

In general, it would be concerning for her to say that her understanding is better, and if there is a big difference it may be a compatibility issue, but because people usually try to marry someone compatible, this would ideally be avoided.

However, humans have only so much control over their thoughts that it would be unrealistic to deny her from thinking that way if it indeed was the case.

Well - then it would be similar to the case of a mother who becomes completely negligent - the husband would take up those duties.

If a husband becomes an apostate then it becomes the mother's duty to be that spiritual leader for her husband and children.

Yet - just as if the case of the negligent mother - it is not the ideal and it is not what God designed men and women for - and the negligent party may be subject for severe judgment.

It happens - because this is mortality - but it is still not ideal.

And you have to understand that Church leaders and Apostles are going to be speaking for the general body of the Church - not these rarer cases.

And these cases doesn't change what God wants for each family.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

yes in a marriage that can most certainly be accomplished. But when it is the man who is held accountable by God for the decisions made, then i think its best for the man to made the final decision.

but this thread was not about marriage. It was about women leading a church as a priest would.

who says that only the man is held responsible? Not me.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It is wrong for a woman to believe herself to have more "spiritual understanding" than her husband - just as wrong as it would be for a man to "oppress" or "infantilize" his wife.

It would be wrong if it weren't true. But in those situations where a woman DOES have greater spiritual understanding than her hubby, then it becomes infantilizing to ask her to pretend it is not so and to agree with her husband, who has less wisdom.

Just as much as a woman who is not fulfilling her duties as a mother. It will count against her. And her husband should be helping her fulfill her duties.

Not all women are naturally good mothers. I loved my babies -- best time of my life. But my sister gets stressed out by children. It would have been disastrous for her mental health to have asked her to stay home and care for her son.

Secondly, children benefit from fathers being directly interactive with them. Being male doesn't mean you aren't part of raising the kids. Women may be able to breastfeed (with exceptions) but men spend more time actually playing with their kids. Well, at least the good dads do.

There is nothing wrong with a woman gaining "spiritual understanding" - considering that that is the goal of this whole thing - just as there is nothing wrong with a man gaining a more mothering nature toward his children.

Then only thing I would change about this is the "gaining" part. I think it has more to do with the unique nature and personality of each individual. And I don't think all raising of children can be considered mothering. there is such as thing as fathering.

However - no matter how mothering he becomes - he is not the children's mother - and she will always be the ultimate authority over their children.

He is the father. Fathers raise their kids. At least the good ones do. Children deserve to have both fathers and mothers in their lives. Dad is not just a paycheck. And in a minority homes, it works out better for the father to be the primary caregiver, for various sundry reasons.

All I'm saying is that different people are differently gifts, and gifts are not peculiar to one gender only. A woman can be a CEO or scientist, and a man can be a natural nurturer for the kids. In most homes, both parents work, so both contribute equally to child rearing.

I was reading earlier this week about the history of psychiatry and its impact on women. In the 1800s it was assumed for example that every sane woman would naturally want to be a mother and have the home as her domain. It was just assumed that women were less intelligent, foolish, and in need of an authority figure. It was just assumed that a woman given to arguing with her husband was INSANE. A husband could have his wife committed to an asylum simply for disagreeing with him. Women were imprisoned in these asylums where they were not released unless they showed a change to "behavior more appropriate to women."

What is really, truly barbaric is that if one of these women never reformed, they did a surgical clitorectomy, since in general, women's "insanity" was thought to be due to a malfunction of her sex organs.

We have come a long ways from that. But I can still hear the same old assumptions in what you are claiming. The same old, "this is the way that it is supposed to be, this is what is best considering the nature of women." It makes me want to barf.

Yes - if that person with the associate's degree has been given some kind of authority by a ruling body concerning math related issues.

If the job is in mathematics, the AA degree guy/gal would not be given a position over the Masters degree one.

And even if such a bizarre situation existed, the Masters degree mathematician would NOT go to an AA guy. they would go to another Math scholar. AA degrees don't make you a math scholar.

Once a man and woman marry they enter into a legally binding contract that places him as her head in all matters spiritual.

Many many marriages, most indeed in the west, are not made on this basis. Marriages are looked upon as partnerships. Are you saying these are not marriages?

No one said that President's are better or wiser than anyone else - but they are in charge of certain things - aren't they?

Everyone is free to disagree with the President. He has the authority to carry out his/her duties during his/her term of office, but it ends when he/she leaves. And being in office doesn't mean he is automatically right. Heck I have never totally agreed with any President, and some I have detested more than others.

Yet you think this is your best example of why wives should defer to their husbands? How does it analogize over to something that is far more restrictive.

Neither is lesser. Why do you consider it a competition?

It is not a competition. Both husband and wife bring their own natural talents into the marriage. I'm saying you cna't try to force square pegs into round holes, and there are some women that are NOT inclined to child rearing just as there are some men highly inclined to it. Your policies are based on sweeping generalization that harm those who don't fit the description.

If either the man or the woman has some sort of deficiency - their spouse shouldn't usurp the authority of the other - but help them better fulfill their duties.

Actually, If the wife is uninclined to child rearing, and the husband highly inclined to it, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever for them to force the stereotypes upon themselves.

And remember that in MOST homes, both husbands and wives work, so if you are saying a wife should come home from work, and start her second shift as a mother, but the husband can come home from work and play X-box, that's just unreasonable.

Does a husband who realizes that his wife does not have the best maternal instincts take her children away from her? Or does he help pick up some of the slack?

If she doesn't have maternal instincts, he would be a fool to leave the kids with her. That's how abuse and neglect happen.

Anyhow, I skipped a lot of what you siad. I'm sorry but your post was just too long, and now I've sent a reply that is, IMHO, so long that I know most of the folks in the forum won't choose to read it. If you reply, please try to make it shorter. It's really only a forum. Things need to be concise.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What do you believe "spiritual understanding" is?

The natural gift of understanding spiritual things instinctually. It can be honed by study, but study alone doesn't bring spiritual understanding. It's a sort of spiritual common sense. It's i.e. the person who tries to break up a fight instead of stands back and records it on their Phone. Such people are kinder and have more virtues than others who are not so gifted. They will also resonate with spiritual things that others do, say, and write.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I find we are all at different stages of spiritual growth.
Since God placed headship upon the husband, the wife is still in subjection to his leadership.
This does Not mean she has No say. Remember: Abraham listened to Sarah - Genesis 21:12
If the husband wants the wife to do something out of harmony with Scripture then the wife would choose to obey God over the man - Acts of the Apostles 5:29.

Yes, I agree that we are all at different stages of spiritual growth. And I would also say that some people are more inclined towards spiritual understanding just as some people are more inclined to sports or music.

I only have problems when people start making up stuff about women, saying that women in general are less spiritually wise than men. Different women and men are all i ndividuals and should be treated as such, noting their unique gifts.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Yes, I agree that we are all at different stages of spiritual growth. And I would also say that some people are more inclined towards spiritual understanding just as some people are more inclined to sports or music.
I only have problems when people start making up stuff about women, saying that women in general are less spiritually wise than men. Different women and men are all individuals and should be treated as such, noting their unique gifts.

I could understand your having a problem about making up stuff about women.
Who would say Jesus' mother Mary was less spiritually wise than men _______
Or, the wise women listed at Luke 8:1-3 ________
It was ' wise ' woman who were around at Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection ________

 

[Fallen Prophet]

The natural gift of understanding spiritual things instinctually. It can be honed by study, but study alone doesn't bring spiritual understanding. It's a sort of spiritual common sense. It's i.e. the person who tries to break up a fight instead of stands back and records it on their Phone. Such people are kinder and have more virtues than others who are not so gifted. They will also resonate with spiritual things that others do, say, and write.

I know that everyone who has ever lived, is living and will live will be blessed with certain spiritual gifts - but I do not believe that understanding comes instinctually to anyone.

Save the Lord Jesus Christ - but He is obviously a special exemption.

I believe that once men and women marry they agree to fulfill certain roles. This is my understanding based on ideals revealed in the scriptures.

Even if the wife is more capable than her husband in spiritual things - or the husband more capable of nurturing children - they both have their assigned roles and authority given them.

All of this is within reason - of course - within the confines of mortal life.

 

[Shakeel]

but men spend more time actually playing with their kids. Well, at least the good dads do.

So during the 10 hours he spends at work the mother doesn't actually play with the kids? That's not what good moms do.

 

[Shakeel]

I only have problems when people start making up stuff about women, saying that women in general are less spiritually wise than men.

What most are saying here is that regardless of a wife's wisdom, she's supposed to stick to her role and to obey her husband. It sounds like you have a problem with that as well.

 

[Meow Mix]

What most are saying here is that regardless of a wife's wisdom, she's supposed to stick to her role and to obey her husband. It sounds like you have a problem with that as well.

As long as this isn't prescribed to secular folk, the only thing I worry about (still) is women coerced into this by spouses, community, parents, etc.

How many women's voices and dreams have been silenced by a life of infantilization that didn't ask for it?

 

[Shakeel]

As long as this isn't prescribed to secular folk, the only thing I worry about (still) is women coerced into this by spouses, community, parents, etc.

How many women's voices and dreams have been silenced by a life of infantilization that didn't ask for it?

It's not infantilization. As for silencing dreams, if they're something unislamic, good, if not, this life is only temporary and they have to live with it.

In Islam women choose to marry, they can't be forced to. So in that sense they do choose to. Sometimes they become tempted by this life and some resist the temptation, others give in to it with the expense of everything they have. That's their choice.

I don't think you understand that the choices aren't just a conservative marriage or freedom, but also heaven or hell.

 

[epronovost]

In Islam women choose to marry, they can't be forced to. So in that sense they do choose to. Sometimes they become tempted by this life and some resist the temptation, others give in to it with the expense of everything they have. That's their choice.

Traditionally no, this wasn't much of a choice. A women having no access to formal education and full property rights, a women had no way to support herself on her own. In countries where male headship is the norm and the law of the land women aren't free to work, open bank accounts, study in higher education or travel without the authorization of their male head (either a father, a husband or someone who has a comparable legal status). Marriage is thus not much a choice in a society where your ability to live and thrive outside of it is limited by other people choices. That's not without counting on the immense social pressure to marry and have children and the social consequences for not following through. Marriage is far from being a free choice based on love, affection and desire in a society where male headship is the norm.

 

[Shakeel]

Traditionally no, this wasn't much of a choice. A women having no access to formal education and full property rights, a women had no way to support herself on her own. In countries where male headship is the norm and the law of the land women aren't free to work, open bank accounts, study in higher education or travel without the authorization of their male head (either a father, a husband or someone who has a comparable legal status). Marriage is thus not much a choice in a society where your ability to live and thrive outside of it is limited by other people choices. That's not without counting on the immense social pressure to marry and have children and the social consequences for not following through. Marriage is far from being a free choice based on love, affection and desire in a society where male headship is the norm.

Which country are you thinking of? I know of no country that has reasonable formal education for men but not for women, or a country that has reasonable working opportunities for men but not for women, or a country where women cannot be unmarried as long as their want. in Islam women have full rights over their own property.

I don't think all that, if it were true, would make it less of a choice. If you think you're miserable where you are but less so unmarried, go ahead, grow old alone. If you're less miserable married, go ahead, get married.

However, such thoughts as you describe shouldn't occur to a Muslim and if they do they have a much bigger problem than not being able to "chase their dreams".

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I know that everyone who has ever lived, is living and will live will be blessed with certain spiritual gifts - but I do not believe that understanding comes instinctually to anyone.

That is not what I've seen with my own eyes.

Some people are born with a natural ability to play sports -- because they are good at it, they will go and practice and practice, honing that skill even more. Practice benefits everyone, but it does not make someone who has less physical ability into a person of talent.

Some people are born with greater intellect. A rich environment and study augments this natural tendency. Indeed, because the intelligent ARE good at bookish things, they gravitate to study and reading and stuff. But ultimately everyone is bound by a certain inborn range of what their intelligence can be, and no amount of studying will get a person out of that range.

Some people are born with an innate understanding of spiritual/ethical things. They naturally are drawn to religious study and practices. They recognize wisdom when they come across it in others and other writings. Again, religious study helps everyone. But it does not give someone without a natural inclination that inclination. No amount of study is going to make someone spiritually wise.

I think I've said this as best as I can. I am not interested in arguing about it with you. It is obvious to me -- what I have seen with my own eyes. You can disagree if you want, and we'll let it go.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It's not infantilization.

When you treat a woman like a child, who needs to obey and not talk in church, it's infantilization.